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Re: Re:

15 Mar 2017 20:54

Dan2016 wrote:
Red Rick wrote:
Brullnux wrote:Jesse Klaver is the slightly more left wing Dutch version of Justin Trudeau then.


He does the one thing

States there's a problem
States an end result like that is the solution to the problem
Do not offer solution to problem.
Talk about change, hope, and vaguely inspiring hollow bullcrap like that.


And he came up with the utter gem that is

"If you cannot understand something, you can assume that it is not true"

That's quite a leap of logic there, I don't understand it. So I'm gonna go ahead and assume youknowwhat


To the bolded, that's an incredible quote. Can you direct me to where he said that please? I'm interested in the context, apart from anything else just to see if he's really that stupid. I'm not finding anything via google, maybe I'm not looking properly.

Dug it up.

It's in some monring show.

"If you don't understand something, you shouldn't trust it. You have to assume other are not smarter than you. If it's so complicated that I don't understand it, then there's something wrong"
Kwibus wrote:So much quesions they have. Answers they will never get.
So why questions? If no answers?
-Kwibus, one of the great philosophers of the 21st century
User avatar Red Rick
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15 Mar 2017 21:27

^in and of itself, provided the quote attribution and its content were accurate, i do not find anything particularly alarming in it or about it...


all that above, again provided the attributions and the content were accurate, was nothing but a candid communication of someone using his/her own power of intellectual judgement and actually relying on it and feeling confident about it. hardly an arrogant act purported by the earlier interpretation.

if that someone expressed his/her opinion as superior, moreover, as a derogatory put-down of an alternative opinion, then, yes, he/she would qualify as a self-righteous jerk.

i read none of that but much excitement about a potentially inaccurate quote.
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User avatar python
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15 Mar 2017 22:01

I wouldn't say it's arrogant as much as pretty dumb. I don't understand quantum physics but I trust the scientists who study it. I know that they know much more than me in that. I also know that economists know more about economics that me etc. I wouldn't say that someone with a qualification in something who says their opinion on a subject matter that they know more about bears more weight is self righteous. I get the sentiment but it's not a pretty stupid thing to say
Brullnux
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15 Mar 2017 22:55

Thanks Red Rick for digging up the quote.
It doesn't seem quite as bad as the shorter quote appeared.
Too ambiguous to judge what exactly he means I think. On face value only, a surface reading, it could be interpreted as pretty stupid, but he could just be saying something along the lines of ''it's important to appraise things rationally, that healthy skepticism has merit''. Who knows, maybe he is an idiot but I'd say the 'jury is out', so to speak.
Dan2016
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16 Mar 2017 02:17

I thought some of you might find this an interesting discussion. Although it is specifically to do with Brexit it also takes in a wider context. It's quite long but I thought it was good. Unless you want to risk the compulsion to smash your screen I strongly recommend fast-forwarding to 3min 30 secs, to avoid the incredibly smug self-obsessed 'chair':
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AraqxOnOS64
Dan2016
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Re:

16 Mar 2017 05:15

Dan2016 wrote:I thought some of you might find this an interesting discussion. Although it is specifically to do with Brexit it also takes in a wider context. It's quite long but I thought it was good. Unless you want to risk the compulsion to smash your screen I strongly recommend fast-forwarding to 3min 30 secs, to avoid the incredibly smug self-obsessed 'chair':
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AraqxOnOS64


oxbridge grads, we just call them w@nkers in Oz[sic]
"Hitler … didn't even sink to using chemical weapons."
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16 Mar 2017 09:05

It seems that the result wasn't that bad for Wilders with 20 or 21 seats the government will have to negotiate with him. I think there was quite a few new voters so the youth vote probably didn't help him. I didn't know there were so many parties involved in Dutch politics.
movingtarget
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Re:

16 Mar 2017 09:19

movingtarget wrote:It seems that the result wasn't that bad for Wilders with 20 or 21 seats the government will have to negotiate with him. I think there was quite a few new voters so the youth vote probably didn't help him. I didn't know there were so many parties involved in Dutch politics.

I'm not sure. PM Rutte and his VVD party said several times there is no chance they'll work together with Wilders again. Rutte cannot afford to get caught lying again, so I think he'll stick to it. Also, he can form a coalition with CDA-D66-CU or CDA-D66-GL, neither is perfect but they are better options for him than PVV. I believe the other large parties (CDA-D66-GL-SP) have all ruled out the PVV as a partner as well so I guess they'll be sidelined (fortunately).
Alberto we love you
on the road
you don't need to say this stuff
we saw you on the road
you blessed us with 9 great shows
let's not argue the toss about the official count
you are much bigger than that
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16 Mar 2017 09:34

Some interesting statistics
Image
GL (Green-left wing party), CU/SGP (Christian parties) and D66 (Liberals) profited from the young vote & female vote. I sure hope most of those young and female votes for CU/SGP went to CU, because SGP is probably the most backward party of all. If it was up to them, women wouldn't even be allowed to vote :redface:

Image
D66 and GL got over half of their votes from the highly educated (dark green in the graph). On the other end of the spectrum we have PVV with almost 40% of their votes from people with low levels of education.
The last graph shows the % of new voters, red indicates those who did not vote for the respective party in the previous election. Seems one of the reasons PvdA (Labour party) did so poorly is because they didn't manage to attract new voters - they lost a fair few to other parties as well
Alberto we love you
on the road
you don't need to say this stuff
we saw you on the road
you blessed us with 9 great shows
let's not argue the toss about the official count
you are much bigger than that
~TourOfSardinia
User avatar LaFlorecita
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Re:

16 Mar 2017 14:06

LaFlorecita wrote:GL (Green-left wing party), CU/SGP (Christian parties) and D66 (Liberals) profited from the young vote & female vote. I sure hope most of those young and female votes for CU/SGP went to CU, because SGP is probably the most backward party of all. If it was up to them, women wouldn't even be allowed to vote :redface:


The SGP actually has the largest youth association of all political parties and women on average are more religious than men in the Western world, so I wouldn't get your hopes up for that one. :p

I don't think the SGP still advocates women not being allowed to vote. They do still officially say that in society/family/church men should have leadership though, but there is some discussion about that within the party itself. Women have been allowed to participate in all roles in the SGP youth association already, it's probably a matter of time before the real SGP follows suit.

It's funny how elections highlight differences between different strata of society and for me it also highlights how I've got one leg in two very different strata of Dutch society. About half of my environment voted D66/Groenlinks (i.e. the most liberal parties) and the other half voted CU/SGP (i.e. the most conservative parties). I know many people who vote SGP, including young and female people (which is why I know a little bit about the inner workings of that party). Somehow because of this SGP just feels like a normal party to me, and you know, Kees van der Staaij coming across as a normal, friendly and reliable person helps, but yeah some of their views are a little bit bizarre. :D
User avatar Maaaaaaaarten
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Re: Re:

16 Mar 2017 14:39

Maaaaaaaarten wrote:The SGP actually has the largest youth association of all political parties and women on average are more religious than men in the Western world, so I wouldn't get your hopes up for that one. :p


I didn't know that but it reminds me of a historical fact. The French Third Republic (1871-1940) which was very secularist or Freemasonic never granted women the right to vote. The reason was that at that time women went to Church more than men did and so were close to priests and chances were that women could bring Monarchists back to power. :p

In the end General De Gaulle gave women the right to vote in 1945. He was a conservative, heavily influenced by Monarchist thinking. :)

Also the Christianity emancipated women. Pagan Rome reduced her to a secondary position in society and the rediscovery of Roman rule by the late Middle Ages and the Renaissance put her back to that secondary status. I'm reading a great book by Régine Pernoud about this at the moment.

Scary about the Armenian Genocide denying party. In a Brussels municipality I used to work in a Socialist mayor was a Genocide denier with Turkish heritage. Armenian Genocide has interested me a lot in recent year. I think it's currently possible in our societies to deny it because the perpetrators were secularists and progressists inspired by the French Revolution (the Dönmeh). The Double Standard with Holocaust deniers is striking (not claiming it's good to deny the Holocaust, just pointing to the double standard).
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16 Mar 2017 15:52

...i was perusing the german-language media this morning and came across a report that the german FM 'was concerned' with the ukrainian trade blockade of the 'occupied territories'. also just minutes ago heard that the french FM issued a similar 'concern'.

normally 'concerned' translated from a diplomatic lingo would imply that germany is not very happy with some ukrainian govt actions. it is very rare when germany would resort to a public reprimand of its client-state...means: the fukc-up must be significant...

so, i decided to dig a little and learn more. what follows is my own summary with the supporting links. note, i only used the ukrainian pro-govt or independent sources in english. no rt, no sputnik.

very briefly, the story that emerged is one of economic self-destruction based on stupidity and the irrational, ultra-nationalist zeal. truly mind-boggling !

..some time in january the activists of the ukrainian ultra-right, ultra-nationalist groups moved to impose a total blockade on the movement of vital goods btwn the separatist regions and ukraine. among the blocked commodities was the special energy-rich coal mined by the separatists but used by the ukrainian powers stations, steel mills and multiple other industries. the hurt imposed by the nazi elements on their own economy and citizens was obvious. more than once various govt officials including the PM groismann warned of the negative consequences to the economy. what did the official govt do ? nothing ! partly out of fear of their own nazis, partly out of gloating the blockade 'hurting' the separatists ability to sell, they just sat on their hands.

finally, yesterday the govt police and security moved in and after some clashes (7 wounded) took control of the blocked rails and roads. one would think that the putsch govt was wisening up ? not really, they kicked out the illegal blockers and today officially installed the 'legal' blockade, b/c one should not trade with the separatists :rolleyes: '. amazingly, the prez ordered the finance ministry to estimate the cost to ukraine's economy due to this 'necessary measure'. the 1st estimates are minus 2% gdp in the economy that keeps falling !!

little wonder the germans and the french are trying to point to the economic stupidity b/c it them them wasting their taxpayers own resources on the putsch govt. not to mention that the minsk agreements are rather clear about ukraine's obligation of integrating and accommodating the unhappy rather then killing and alienating.

such is the consequence of the rabid ultra nationalism :mad:
https://www.kyivpost.com/article/opinion/op-ed/timothy-ash-thoughts-ukrainian-trade-blockade-eastern-donbas.html
https://eblnews.com/news/europe/ukrainian-minister-wants-remove-blockade-rebel-held-east-59231
https://www.unian.info/economics/1826576-cabinet-prolongs-state-of-emergency-in-energy-sector.html
Finance ministry to calculate Ukraine's losses from blockade of occupied Donbas
https://www.unian.info/economics/1825587-finance-ministry-to-calculate-ukraines-losses-from-blockade-of-occupied-donbas.html
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in foreign policy there are no eternal friendships or eternal enemies, only eternal interests
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Re:

16 Mar 2017 16:12

python wrote:...i was perusing the german-language media this morning and came across a report that the german FM 'was concerned' with the ukrainian trade blockade of the 'occupied territories'. also just minutes ago heard that the french FM issued a similar 'concern'.

normally 'concerned' translated from a diplomatic lingo would imply that germany is not very happy with some ukrainian govt actions. it is very rare when germany would resort to a public reprimand of its client-state...means: the fukc-up must be significant...

so, i decided to dig a little and learn more. what follows is my own summary with the supporting links. note, i only used the ukrainian pro-govt or independent sources in english. no rt, no sputnik.

very briefly, the story that emerged is one of economic self-destruction based on stupidity and the irrational, ultra-nationalist zeal. truly mind-boggling !

..some time in january the activists of the ukrainian ultra-right, ultra-nationalist groups moved to impose a total blockade on the movement of vital goods btwn the separatist regions and ukraine. among the blocked commodities was the special energy-rich coal mined by the separatists but used by the ukrainian powers stations, steel mills and multiple other industries. the hurt imposed by the nazi elements on their own economy and citizens was obvious. more than once various govt officials including the PM groismann warned of the negative consequences to the economy. what did the official govt do ? nothing ! partly out of fear of their own nazis, partly out of gloating the blockade 'hurting' the separatists ability to sell, they just sat on their hands.

finally, yesterday the govt police and security moved in and after some clashes (7 wounded) took control of the blocked rails and roads. one would think that the putsch govt was wisening up ? not really, they kicked out the illegal blockers and today officially installed the 'legal' blockade, b/c one should not trade with the separatists :rolleyes: '. amazingly, the prez ordered the finance ministry to estimate the cost to ukraine's economy due to this 'necessary measure'. the 1st estimates are minus 2% gdp in the economy that keeps falling !!

little wonder the germans and the french are trying to point to the economic stupidity b/c it them them wasting their taxpayers own resources on the putsch govt. not to mention that the minsk agreements are rather clear about ukraine's obligation of integrating and accommodating the unhappy rather then killing and alienating.

such is the consequence of the rabid ultra nationalism :mad:
https://www.kyivpost.com/article/opinion/op-ed/timothy-ash-thoughts-ukrainian-trade-blockade-eastern-donbas.html
https://eblnews.com/news/europe/ukrainian-minister-wants-remove-blockade-rebel-held-east-59231
https://www.unian.info/economics/1826576-cabinet-prolongs-state-of-emergency-in-energy-sector.html
Finance ministry to calculate Ukraine's losses from blockade of occupied Donbas
https://www.unian.info/economics/1825587-finance-ministry-to-calculate-ukraines-losses-from-blockade-of-occupied-donbas.html


....ahhh, the glorious revolution, the gift that never stops giving..... very nice find ....

....btw there had been talk about this coal issue a while back when it was realized by Western observers that Ukrainian heavy industry and power generation needed this particular type of coal to operate ( similar grades of coal are available overseas but the transport infrastructure at present does not exist to deal with overseas shipments ( plus the overseas is more expensive))....it was recognized as a problem that potentially could be solved by some level of understanding and acceptance which some had hoped would lead to some level of negotiation and ratcheting down of tensions....but no one thought that someone would "solve" this issue with such rank stupidity....so given the blockade The Ukraine is now even more royally pooched....this is truly mindboggling....

Cheers
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16 Mar 2017 17:51

SGP having the biggest youth party makes perfect sense, I aren't they against the use of contraception?

LaFlorecita wrote:Some interesting statistics
Image
GL (Green-left wing party), CU/SGP (Christian parties) and D66 (Liberals) profited from the young vote & female vote. I sure hope most of those young and female votes for CU/SGP went to CU, because SGP is probably the most backward party of all. If it was up to them, women wouldn't even be allowed to vote :redface:

Image
D66 and GL got over half of their votes from the highly educated (dark green in the graph). On the other end of the spectrum we have PVV with almost 40% of their votes from people with low levels of education.
The last graph shows the % of new voters, red indicates those who did not vote for the respective party in the previous election. Seems one of the reasons PvdA (Labour party) did so poorly is because they didn't manage to attract new voters - they lost a fair few to other parties as well

Most suprised by the fact that 50% of PVV votes are new voters. I thought he'd retain a lot more votes. Probably lost some to FvD though, and will do in the future
Kwibus wrote:So much quesions they have. Answers they will never get.
So why questions? If no answers?
-Kwibus, one of the great philosophers of the 21st century
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Re:

17 Mar 2017 02:28

python wrote:...i was perusing the german-language media this morning and came across a report that the german FM 'was concerned' with the ukrainian trade blockade of the 'occupied territories'. also just minutes ago heard that the french FM issued a similar 'concern'.

normally 'concerned' translated from a diplomatic lingo would imply that germany is not very happy with some ukrainian govt actions. it is very rare when germany would resort to a public reprimand of its client-state...means: the fukc-up must be significant...

so, i decided to dig a little and learn more. what follows is my own summary with the supporting links. note, i only used the ukrainian pro-govt or independent sources in english. no rt, no sputnik.

very briefly, the story that emerged is one of economic self-destruction based on stupidity and the irrational, ultra-nationalist zeal. truly mind-boggling !

..some time in january the activists of the ukrainian ultra-right, ultra-nationalist groups moved to impose a total blockade on the movement of vital goods btwn the separatist regions and ukraine. among the blocked commodities was the special energy-rich coal mined by the separatists but used by the ukrainian powers stations, steel mills and multiple other industries. the hurt imposed by the nazi elements on their own economy and citizens was obvious. more than once various govt officials including the PM groismann warned of the negative consequences to the economy. what did the official govt do ? nothing ! partly out of fear of their own nazis, partly out of gloating the blockade 'hurting' the separatists ability to sell, they just sat on their hands.

finally, yesterday the govt police and security moved in and after some clashes (7 wounded) took control of the blocked rails and roads. one would think that the putsch govt was wisening up ? not really, they kicked out the illegal blockers and today officially installed the 'legal' blockade, b/c one should not trade with the separatists :rolleyes: '. amazingly, the prez ordered the finance ministry to estimate the cost to ukraine's economy due to this 'necessary measure'. the 1st estimates are minus 2% gdp in the economy that keeps falling !!

little wonder the germans and the french are trying to point to the economic stupidity b/c it them them wasting their taxpayers own resources on the putsch govt. not to mention that the minsk agreements are rather clear about ukraine's obligation of integrating and accommodating the unhappy rather then killing and alienating.

such is the consequence of the rabid ultra nationalism :mad:
https://www.kyivpost.com/article/opinion/op-ed/timothy-ash-thoughts-ukrainian-trade-blockade-eastern-donbas.html
https://eblnews.com/news/europe/ukrainian-minister-wants-remove-blockade-rebel-held-east-59231
https://www.unian.info/economics/1826576-cabinet-prolongs-state-of-emergency-in-energy-sector.html
Finance ministry to calculate Ukraine's losses from blockade of occupied Donbas
https://www.unian.info/economics/1825587-finance-ministry-to-calculate-ukraines-losses-from-blockade-of-occupied-donbas.html


That is unbelievably stupid.
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Re: Re:

17 Mar 2017 13:22

blutto wrote:
python wrote:...i was perusing the german-language media this morning and came across a report that the german FM 'was concerned' with the ukrainian trade blockade of the 'occupied territories'. also just minutes ago heard that the french FM issued a similar 'concern'.

normally 'concerned' translated from a diplomatic lingo would imply that germany is not very happy with some ukrainian govt actions. it is very rare when germany would resort to a public reprimand of its client-state...means: the fukc-up must be significant...

so, i decided to dig a little and learn more. what follows is my own summary with the supporting links. note, i only used the ukrainian pro-govt or independent sources in english. no rt, no sputnik.

very briefly, the story that emerged is one of economic self-destruction based on stupidity and the irrational, ultra-nationalist zeal. truly mind-boggling !

..some time in january the activists of the ukrainian ultra-right, ultra-nationalist groups moved to impose a total blockade on the movement of vital goods btwn the separatist regions and ukraine. among the blocked commodities was the special energy-rich coal mined by the separatists but used by the ukrainian powers stations, steel mills and multiple other industries. the hurt imposed by the nazi elements on their own economy and citizens was obvious. more than once various govt officials including the PM groismann warned of the negative consequences to the economy. what did the official govt do ? nothing ! partly out of fear of their own nazis, partly out of gloating the blockade 'hurting' the separatists ability to sell, they just sat on their hands.

finally, yesterday the govt police and security moved in and after some clashes (7 wounded) took control of the blocked rails and roads. one would think that the putsch govt was wisening up ? not really, they kicked out the illegal blockers and today officially installed the 'legal' blockade, b/c one should not trade with the separatists :rolleyes: '. amazingly, the prez ordered the finance ministry to estimate the cost to ukraine's economy due to this 'necessary measure'. the 1st estimates are minus 2% gdp in the economy that keeps falling !!

little wonder the germans and the french are trying to point to the economic stupidity b/c it them them wasting their taxpayers own resources on the putsch govt. not to mention that the minsk agreements are rather clear about ukraine's obligation of integrating and accommodating the unhappy rather then killing and alienating.

such is the consequence of the rabid ultra nationalism :mad:
https://www.kyivpost.com/article/opinion/op-ed/timothy-ash-thoughts-ukrainian-trade-blockade-eastern-donbas.html
https://eblnews.com/news/europe/ukrainian-minister-wants-remove-blockade-rebel-held-east-59231
https://www.unian.info/economics/1826576-cabinet-prolongs-state-of-emergency-in-energy-sector.html
Finance ministry to calculate Ukraine's losses from blockade of occupied Donbas
https://www.unian.info/economics/1825587-finance-ministry-to-calculate-ukraines-losses-from-blockade-of-occupied-donbas.html


....ahhh, the glorious revolution, the gift that never stops giving..... very nice find ....

....btw there had been talk about this coal issue a while back when it was realized by Western observers that Ukrainian heavy industry and power generation needed this particular type of coal to operate ( similar grades of coal are available overseas but the transport infrastructure at present does not exist to deal with overseas shipments ( plus the overseas is more expensive))....it was recognized as a problem that potentially could be solved by some level of understanding and acceptance which some had hoped would lead to some level of negotiation and ratcheting down of tensions....but no one thought that someone would "solve" this issue with such rank stupidity....so given the blockade The Ukraine is now even more royally pooched....this is truly mindboggling....

Cheers

the revolution is now 3 y.o. its goals were to bring prosperity and fight corruption by emulating the western values and economic model...as everyone had seen, they are certainly 'fighting' it via the monumental stupidy with blockading their own vital coal. it's not even disputed by the pro-govt media...

here is another article (from the us conservative portal) on the coal blockade AND a no less idiotic scheme of how the revolution defrauds the simple ukrainians of another vital commodity - the natural gas
http://nationalinterest.org/feature/the-bizarre-reason-ukraine-could-be-facing-legitimacy-crisis-19787
One scheme, unearthed last year by Ukrainska Pravda, shows how government officials bought coal that was purportedly from South Africa, through a Hong Kong company, that was in fact Donbass coal shipped through Russia. This scheme is not unlike the one Ukrainian government officials are currently using to claim that the country no longer purchases gas from Russia. Nowadays, Slovakia is asked to request additional supplies. Russian gas is then shipped through Ukraine to Slovakia and, after traveling a few hundred meters, reversed from there back into Ukraine. The higher price for this “Slovakian gas” is partially funded by loans from Western banks guaranteed by the World Bank. Everybody wins, except the Ukrainian consumer.

and if you are interested in how the ukraine's corruption is doing after the 3-year ruthless fight, take a look at this article. keep in mind, that to some the most respected western outlet - forbes - is printing the 'russian propaganda'.............. b/c it was hacked. must be.
Corruption Is Killing Ukraine's Economy
https://www.forbes.com/sites/kenrapoza/2016/10/14/how-corruption-corrodes-ukraines-economy/#2d62d96e124e
Kiev Post, an independent English language newspaper that supported the 2014 Euro Maidan revolution against pro-Russian president Viktor Yanukovych, is getting worried. A recent investigative series shows the paper’s concern about Ukraine’s inability to break from “croynism, kleptocracy and nepotism” – their words -- three years later. Yanukovych and Poroshenko have a symmetrical, mirror-like image of one another


the article is filled with the 1st class investigative facts like that. what's puzzling, is why the western msm is not more critical of the economic idiotism, total corruption and unprecedented impoverishment of the simple ukrainians their govs encourage and finance :Question:
DJPbaltimore:'John Kerry is an honorable person and would not call out the Russians if there was not evidence', 'the 2 of you are russia stooges'
in foreign policy there are no eternal friendships or eternal enemies, only eternal interests
User avatar python
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Re: World Politics

18 Mar 2017 13:15

....speaking of St Patrick's Day here is some interesting on the importance of history....

Thomas Gallagher points out in Paddy’s Lament, that during the first winter of famine, 1846-47, as perhaps 400,000 Irish peasants starved, landlords exported 17 million pounds sterling worth of grain, cattle, pigs, flour, eggs, and poultry—food that could have prevented those deaths. Throughout the famine, as Gallagher notes, there was an abundance of food produced in Ireland, yet the landlords exported it to markets abroad


As mentioned, there is no absence of teaching materials on the Irish famine that can touch head and heart. In a role play, “Hunger on Trial,” that I wrote and taught to my own students in Portland, Oregon—included at the Zinn Education Project website— students investigate who or what was responsible for the famine. The British landlords, who demanded rent from the starving poor and exported other food crops? The British government, which allowed these food exports and offered scant aid to Irish peasants? The Anglican Church, which failed to denounce selfish landlords or to act on behalf of the poor? A system of distribution, which sacrificed Irish peasants to the logic of colonialism and the capitalist market?


http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/46684.htm

Cheers
User avatar blutto
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Re: Re:

18 Mar 2017 13:21

python wrote:
blutto wrote:
python wrote:...i was perusing the german-language media this morning and came across a report that the german FM 'was concerned' with the ukrainian trade blockade of the 'occupied territories'. also just minutes ago heard that the french FM issued a similar 'concern'.

normally 'concerned' translated from a diplomatic lingo would imply that germany is not very happy with some ukrainian govt actions. it is very rare when germany would resort to a public reprimand of its client-state...means: the fukc-up must be significant...

so, i decided to dig a little and learn more. what follows is my own summary with the supporting links. note, i only used the ukrainian pro-govt or independent sources in english. no rt, no sputnik.

very briefly, the story that emerged is one of economic self-destruction based on stupidity and the irrational, ultra-nationalist zeal. truly mind-boggling !

..some time in january the activists of the ukrainian ultra-right, ultra-nationalist groups moved to impose a total blockade on the movement of vital goods btwn the separatist regions and ukraine. among the blocked commodities was the special energy-rich coal mined by the separatists but used by the ukrainian powers stations, steel mills and multiple other industries. the hurt imposed by the nazi elements on their own economy and citizens was obvious. more than once various govt officials including the PM groismann warned of the negative consequences to the economy. what did the official govt do ? nothing ! partly out of fear of their own nazis, partly out of gloating the blockade 'hurting' the separatists ability to sell, they just sat on their hands.

finally, yesterday the govt police and security moved in and after some clashes (7 wounded) took control of the blocked rails and roads. one would think that the putsch govt was wisening up ? not really, they kicked out the illegal blockers and today officially installed the 'legal' blockade, b/c one should not trade with the separatists :rolleyes: '. amazingly, the prez ordered the finance ministry to estimate the cost to ukraine's economy due to this 'necessary measure'. the 1st estimates are minus 2% gdp in the economy that keeps falling !!

little wonder the germans and the french are trying to point to the economic stupidity b/c it them them wasting their taxpayers own resources on the putsch govt. not to mention that the minsk agreements are rather clear about ukraine's obligation of integrating and accommodating the unhappy rather then killing and alienating.

such is the consequence of the rabid ultra nationalism :mad:
https://www.kyivpost.com/article/opinion/op-ed/timothy-ash-thoughts-ukrainian-trade-blockade-eastern-donbas.html
https://eblnews.com/news/europe/ukrainian-minister-wants-remove-blockade-rebel-held-east-59231
https://www.unian.info/economics/1826576-cabinet-prolongs-state-of-emergency-in-energy-sector.html
Finance ministry to calculate Ukraine's losses from blockade of occupied Donbas
https://www.unian.info/economics/1825587-finance-ministry-to-calculate-ukraines-losses-from-blockade-of-occupied-donbas.html


....ahhh, the glorious revolution, the gift that never stops giving..... very nice find ....

....btw there had been talk about this coal issue a while back when it was realized by Western observers that Ukrainian heavy industry and power generation needed this particular type of coal to operate ( similar grades of coal are available overseas but the transport infrastructure at present does not exist to deal with overseas shipments ( plus the overseas is more expensive))....it was recognized as a problem that potentially could be solved by some level of understanding and acceptance which some had hoped would lead to some level of negotiation and ratcheting down of tensions....but no one thought that someone would "solve" this issue with such rank stupidity....so given the blockade The Ukraine is now even more royally pooched....this is truly mindboggling....

Cheers

the revolution is now 3 y.o. its goals were to bring prosperity and fight corruption by emulating the western values and economic model...as everyone had seen, they are certainly 'fighting' it via the monumental stupidy with blockading their own vital coal. it's not even disputed by the pro-govt media...

here is another article (from the us conservative portal) on the coal blockade AND a no less idiotic scheme of how the revolution defrauds the simple ukrainians of another vital commodity - the natural gas
http://nationalinterest.org/feature/the-bizarre-reason-ukraine-could-be-facing-legitimacy-crisis-19787
One scheme, unearthed last year by Ukrainska Pravda, shows how government officials bought coal that was purportedly from South Africa, through a Hong Kong company, that was in fact Donbass coal shipped through Russia. This scheme is not unlike the one Ukrainian government officials are currently using to claim that the country no longer purchases gas from Russia. Nowadays, Slovakia is asked to request additional supplies. Russian gas is then shipped through Ukraine to Slovakia and, after traveling a few hundred meters, reversed from there back into Ukraine. The higher price for this “Slovakian gas” is partially funded by loans from Western banks guaranteed by the World Bank. Everybody wins, except the Ukrainian consumer.

and if you are interested in how the ukraine's corruption is doing after the 3-year ruthless fight, take a look at this article. keep in mind, that to some the most respected western outlet - forbes - is printing the 'russian propaganda'.............. b/c it was hacked. must be.
Corruption Is Killing Ukraine's Economy
https://www.forbes.com/sites/kenrapoza/2016/10/14/how-corruption-corrodes-ukraines-economy/#2d62d96e124e
Kiev Post, an independent English language newspaper that supported the 2014 Euro Maidan revolution against pro-Russian president Viktor Yanukovych, is getting worried. A recent investigative series shows the paper’s concern about Ukraine’s inability to break from “croynism, kleptocracy and nepotism” – their words -- three years later. Yanukovych and Poroshenko have a symmetrical, mirror-like image of one another


the article is filled with the 1st class investigative facts like that. what's puzzling, is why the western msm is not more critical of the economic idiotism, total corruption and unprecedented impoverishment of the simple ukrainians their govs encourage and finance :Question:


....maybe its something we should ask our very own Red Flanders cause he is an real expert on truth and facts and great places to get that stuff in the purest un-politicized form....real smart him, like not a stooge eh....

Cheers
User avatar blutto
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20 Mar 2017 15:43

...something big, unpredictable and potentially stressful is taking place in syria specifically and the middle east in general...no western msm had reported it, much less analyzed. but i will. here on a 'little' cycling forum.

i am alarmed by some developments that defy the well known trends. what are the known trends ?

1. iran, turkey and russia displaced the west from leading the syrian negotiation.
2. there was a startling reconciliation btwn russia and turkey that caused the turks moderate on assad's future
3. the us under trump has largely continued the obama syria policy. that is, supporting and training the kurds against isis and cooling turkey from attacking the kurds.
4. a well functioning agreement btwn russia and israel re. syria. that is, in addition to de-conflicting of the air forces, israel had some freedom of attacking hezbollah in return for tolerating the iranian presence in support of assad

all these trends may now collapse b/c of the new developments...

the 1st alarm sounded when the syrian anti-air missiles were shot 2 d ago at the israeli planes attacking someone near aleppo. the syrians claimed 1 israeli plane shot down. israel denied and yet claimed it had shot down the syrian missile directed at its aircraft. this incident would be just another act of the zionist aggression, if not for the russians. apparently, they got mad at the israeli attack and instantly filed a note with the israeli envoy in moscow. israel ignored it. moreover they issued a statement that if syria dares 1 more time to shoot at their planes (in the syrian sky, mind you) they will destroy the entire syrian anti-air system. russia called the israeli envoy for the 2nd time yesterday. this is unprecedented since the s.u. days. we know bibi visited vlad last week and flew back w/o giving the typical press conference...i will not be surprised if the israelis were told to stay away from syria...or else. not difficult to imagine what that 'else' was..

if russia and israel face off in syria a major shyt storm may ensure.

the 2nd alarm just sounded this morning. russia is setting a military base in the mids of syrian kurdistan according to reuters. http://www.reuters.com/article/us-mideast-crisis-syria-russia-idUSKBN16R1H4?feedType=RSS&feedName=worldNews&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+Reuters%2FworldNews+%28Reuters+World+News%29

if true it is a direct eff u to turkey (the rumour is erdo's visit to moscow last week a day apart with bibi was a failure). and, more importantly, this is a direct brave challenge to trump and the us as the main sponsor of the syrian kurds

vlad is getting a tad more than assertive with 3 major powers in the very explosion-prone region ? filling more vacuum ? what's behind his new aggressive play ?
DJPbaltimore:'John Kerry is an honorable person and would not call out the Russians if there was not evidence', 'the 2 of you are russia stooges'
in foreign policy there are no eternal friendships or eternal enemies, only eternal interests
User avatar python
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21 Mar 2017 07:46

Watched a bit of the French debate yesterday, only thing I decided was that Melenchon is a beast.
Brullnux
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