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14 Mar 2017 20:08

wilders isn't likely to win but it does not mean he'd lose..xplainin'

in a sense, many mainstream dutch parties had been adopting his rhetoric realizing the populist value of his uttering. his messages have definitely had their audience and its no secret many normal/regular dutch have listened enthusiastically...

as i posted above - and its a genuine concern on my part b/c one of my sisters lives in holland - one of the most democratic and tolerant nations in europe, the netherlands, had chosen to forgo one of the fundamental postulates of democracy - the freedom of expression. the core value was ignored, understandably yet it needs to be explored, in order to limit a muslim foreign power (turkey) from influencing what most dutch consider a sensitive immigrant business atm.

its totally fair to look inwards when one feels threatened, yet i feel one needs to honestly realize they are becoming less democratic while prioritizing the inward look.

as an example, i know many americans who will admit the post 9-11 'patriot act' was a step away from the democracy they wished to see but were willing to tolerate for their physical security...

are the dutch thinking in the similar terms ? i don't get a sense they are, but i really dont know.
DJPbaltimore:'John Kerry is an honorable person and would not call out the Russians if there was not evidence', 'the 2 of you are russia stooges'
in foreign policy there are no eternal friendships or eternal enemies, only eternal interests
User avatar python
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14 Mar 2017 21:33

Jesse Klaver is the slightly more left wing Dutch version of Justin Trudeau then.
Brullnux
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14 Mar 2017 21:55

I feel that freedom of expression is self-limiting when you let those who would limit it abuse it to their own ends. Huge grey, messy area.
Kwibus wrote:So much quesions they have. Answers they will never get.
So why questions? If no answers?
-Kwibus, one of the great philosophers of the 21st century
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Re:

14 Mar 2017 21:57

Brullnux wrote:Jesse Klaver is the slightly more left wing Dutch version of Justin Trudeau then.


He does the one thing

States there's a problem
States an end result like that is the solution to the problem
Do not offer solution to problem.
Talk about change, hope, and vaguely inspiring hollow bullcrap like that.


And he came up with the utter gem that is

"If you cannot understand something, you can assume that it is not true"

That's quite a leap of logic there, I don't understand it. So I'm gonna go ahead and assume youknowwhat
Kwibus wrote:So much quesions they have. Answers they will never get.
So why questions? If no answers?
-Kwibus, one of the great philosophers of the 21st century
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14 Mar 2017 22:45

That's an incredible quote, I have to say. Not sure whow decided this would be a good idea; it's almost as bad as alternative facts.

Unfortunately there are far too many politicians on the left who seem to lazy or inept to come up with an actual plan, an actual strategy and rely on useless buzzwords to win. Some of the more charismatic ones actually win. It seems that nobody can be bothered with creating a new theory or whatever. Even when the Labour Party hired Stiglitz and Piketty and a couple of others to help on a new economic policy they decided not to use them.
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Re:

15 Mar 2017 12:43

python wrote:as i posted above - and its a genuine concern on my part b/c one of my sisters lives in holland - one of the most democratic and tolerant nations in europe, the netherlands, had chosen to forgo one of the fundamental postulates of democracy - the freedom of expression. the core value was ignored, understandably yet it needs to be explored, in order to limit a muslim foreign power (turkey) from influencing what most dutch consider a sensitive immigrant business atm.

its totally fair to look inwards when one feels threatened, yet i feel one needs to honestly realize they are becoming less democratic while prioritizing the inward look.

as an example, i know many americans who will admit the post 9-11 'patriot act' was a step away from the democracy they wished to see but were willing to tolerate for their physical security...

are the dutch thinking in the similar terms ? i don't get a sense they are, but i really dont know.


Note that the Dutch government didn't prohibit campaign for the Turkish referendum as such. They only started getting worried when the Turkish government wanted to send high ranking officials here to campaign for a referendum which would give Erdogan, who is already becoming more and more of a dictator, much more power. The problem wasn't campaigning for the referendum as such, but the Turkish government itself campaigning in the Netherlannds for an anti-democratic law change. Foreign governments campaigning in the Netherlands in a time when the Netherlands are having an election themselves is also kind of awkward. Anyway, initially the Dutch government was just displaying their discontent with these events and talking with the Turkish government to try and reach some sort of compromise. However, the Turkish immediately started very fierce and hostile rhetoric and threatening with economic sanctions; it's only after that that the Dutch government forbade the Turkish ministers to come here to campaign and then they came anyway and the present riot ensued.
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Re:

15 Mar 2017 12:58

Brullnux wrote:Jesse Klaver is the slightly more left wing Dutch version of Justin Trudeau then.


....why, because, as someone on the CBC this morning commenting on this comparison stated, he has "nice hair" ? ( a reference that could take pages and pages to explain but I'm sure that this line uttered this morning got lots of giggles across Canada as it actually played a pivotal role in Trudeau's win over Harper in our last federal election...)....

Cheers
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15 Mar 2017 15:41

the dutch elections are in full swing...the turnout is estimated to hit 80% or about. the polls will close in 4 something hours.

the latest polls put wilders in 2nd or 3d though the front-runner party of the current pm is only 2-3% up, which is within the margin of error. somehow, i tend to trust the dutch polls more than in many other places.

the live coverage and updates:
http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/778648/Dutch-election-polls-live-updates-latest-news-Geert-Wilders-Mark-Rutte-Netherlands-poll
DJPbaltimore:'John Kerry is an honorable person and would not call out the Russians if there was not evidence', 'the 2 of you are russia stooges'
in foreign policy there are no eternal friendships or eternal enemies, only eternal interests
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15 Mar 2017 15:53

My vote went to Jesse Klaver/GroenLinks because I care about the environment and want accessible healthcare and equal opportunities for everyone. I've seen them as low as 12 seats in some polls and as high as 20 in others, I think about 15 is realistic :)
I'm a bit torn on Wilders' party, on one hand I want him to fail and I want him to fail BADLY, on the other hand it would be fun to see the alt-right looneys on social media rage when he wins the elections yet fails to form a government and doesn't become PM :lol:
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Re: Re:

15 Mar 2017 17:10

blutto wrote:
Brullnux wrote:Jesse Klaver is the slightly more left wing Dutch version of Justin Trudeau then.


....why, because, as someone on the CBC this morning commenting on this comparison stated, he has "nice hair" ? ( a reference that could take pages and pages to explain but I'm sure that this line uttered this morning got lots of giggles across Canada as it actually played a pivotal role in Trudeau's win over Harper in our last federal election...)....

Cheers

Partly yes: young, good looking, charismatic. Except that I hope Klavier isn't as much of a fraud (I'm still bitter over CETA, Saudi Arabia and XL). You know the type.
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15 Mar 2017 20:03

First exit polls have the VVD, the liberal party of prime minster Mark Rutte winning an unexpectedly huge margin. 31 seats in parliament, 3 other parties? at 19.
Kwibus wrote:So much quesions they have. Answers they will never get.
So why questions? If no answers?
-Kwibus, one of the great philosophers of the 21st century
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15 Mar 2017 20:11

Image
VVD so large :eek:
PVV flop :lol:
GL 16 :) :)
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15 Mar 2017 20:13

VVD and CDA coalition then I imagine?
Brullnux
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Re:

15 Mar 2017 20:15

Brullnux wrote:VVD and CDA coalition then I imagine?

VVD+CDA+D66 was always the most likely coalition, but they need a majority = 76 seats, those three together only add up to 69 (using those numbers). So another party needs to join.
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15 Mar 2017 20:19

This is a pretty lousy result to form a government though (which was to be expected). How on earth are they going to form a government like this? VVD, CDA, D66 together is 69. Where are they going to get those 7 extra needed seats? PvdA isn't stupid enough to go into a predominantly right wing government again. GL and SP are way too left wing to form a government with VVD and CDA. If these parties get an extra seat in the final result, maybe CU could be an option, but trying to form a government with D66 and CU together is going to be interesting as well......
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Re:

15 Mar 2017 20:21

Brullnux wrote:VVD and CDA coalition then I imagine?

First few options all involve VDD, D66 and CDA, then they need 7 more seats, but depending on actual counts they can manage that with CU, a christian party, alone. THis combo doesn't have a majority in the senate though.

May get the elderly party or the bible belt party in
Kwibus wrote:So much quesions they have. Answers they will never get.
So why questions? If no answers?
-Kwibus, one of the great philosophers of the 21st century
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15 Mar 2017 20:21

I hope for you guys that you don't have a repeat of Spain last year.

But I'm very glad PVV had such a disappointing result (a two percent vote increase is disappointing). People here are saying that Brexit and Trump have had an effect on the PVV vote, is this true?
Last edited by Brullnux on 15 Mar 2017 20:26, edited 1 time in total.
Brullnux
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15 Mar 2017 20:23

Also, seems like Erdogan got 3 seats in our parliament as well
Kwibus wrote:So much quesions they have. Answers they will never get.
So why questions? If no answers?
-Kwibus, one of the great philosophers of the 21st century
User avatar Red Rick
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15 Mar 2017 20:24

Yep, looks like the Netherlands will have a genocide denying party with three seats in our parliament.

Oh and I hope FvD actually gets two seats. Baudet and Hiddema are going to be comedy gold.
User avatar Maaaaaaaarten
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Re: Re:

15 Mar 2017 20:34

Red Rick wrote:
Brullnux wrote:Jesse Klaver is the slightly more left wing Dutch version of Justin Trudeau then.


He does the one thing

States there's a problem
States an end result like that is the solution to the problem
Do not offer solution to problem.
Talk about change, hope, and vaguely inspiring hollow bullcrap like that.


And he came up with the utter gem that is

"If you cannot understand something, you can assume that it is not true"

That's quite a leap of logic there, I don't understand it. So I'm gonna go ahead and assume youknowwhat


To the bolded, that's an incredible quote. Can you direct me to where he said that please? I'm interested in the context, apart from anything else just to see if he's really that stupid. I'm not finding anything via google, maybe I'm not looking properly.
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