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Race Design Challenge II

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Re: Race Design Challenge II

27 Dec 2016 21:29

Gigs_98 wrote:I updated my summary post with a map. Sorry for the bad resolution but I guess thats what happens if you make too many screenshots of the same picture. Btw, some of the stages on my map might not be identical to the stages I posted. Thats because I made this map with openrunner, where I usually create my races before I create the profiles for the stage with cronoescalada. However ofc sometimes I change a few things on cronoescalada so my openrunner stages aren't necessarily exactly the same as my cronoescalada stages.

Looks very cool
Kwibus wrote:So much quesions they have. Answers they will never get.
So why questions? If no answers?
-Kwibus, one of the great philosophers of the 21st century
User avatar Red Rick
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28 Dec 2016 10:00

Very cool indeed :)
A race that doesn't give an attacker the chance to finish it off alone is not a race anymore.


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User avatar Eshnar
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29 Dec 2016 23:16

This is slowly starting to look like a slowroll
Kwibus wrote:So much quesions they have. Answers they will never get.
So why questions? If no answers?
-Kwibus, one of the great philosophers of the 21st century
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Re: Race Design Challenge II

01 Jan 2017 19:54

Do the judges need all the time they have to create a team for the cq manager game or is there another reason why the results haven't been posted yet? ;)
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Re: Race Design Challenge II

02 Jan 2017 01:32

Well, we finally made it people. Congratulations to the winner (spoiler alert!) and thanks to all participants and judges. I think we all deserve a break from parcours now :D

JUDGE 1:

Gigs_98 T: 5 C: 3
The best fourth week in terms of technical content. I loved pretty much all your mountain stages, as well as the sterrato one. It's a bit of a shame that the cultural side isn't as impressive, but of course one can't have everything...

Brullnux T: 3 C: 3
Overall, I think you could've made harder stages in this week. I also think your idea of finishing the race on the Vesuvius was brave, but I didn't like it that much, especially since it likely took away one place for a proper mountain stage.

Rghysens T: 4 C: 4
This week wraps up your race in a good, albeit not excellent fashion. Your last few stages are a bit underwhelming on the technical side, and I don't really like the placement of the ITT. That said, it's still a good week on all accounts.

mb2612 T: 3 C: 4
Culturally, this is the best of the lot, as you are probably used to by now. However, I do think you've tried to focus more on the technical side, sacrificing the culture, thus why you don't get 5 there. I definitely commend you for the idea of having a roman themed citation for each stage, as it was the most original touch out of all the players. Technically, the route comes together well, without going crazy. But in this kind of a challenge, that's not a positive thing.


JUDGE 2:

Gigs_98 T: 5 C: 3
Reviewing it now, this was the best week in terms of how it all tied together. Something for all tastes, and plenty of time for the GC to stage significantly, with an ITT, sterrato and climbing stages all in the final few days. And I am giving you the 5 for finishing with a bunch gallop in Rome. Culturally, you have suffered from the race not really feeling “Roman”, albeit this wasn’t really as pronounced as you moved to the peninsula in the final week.

Brullnux T: 3 C: 3
A real mixed bag here, with some great stages, and some puzzling decisions. I didn’t like the way you avoided Rome to finish. I did like the ITT up Vesuvius, but maybe it could have been done a stage or two earlier. Stage 24 is a thing of beauty. Ugly beauty maybe as it could kill a few participants, but beauty nonetheless. Culturally, it was not a bad week at all, but not the best either.I mark you up for the idea of Vesuvius ITT, but down (technically) for its placement.

Rghysens T: 3 C: 4
I liked your stages a lot, but I really didn’t like the way you finished your tour. It felt wrong. I really think you guys have made your final weeks too tough, with nothing for sprinters in the final week. That said, there were some technically excellent stages, particularly at the start of the final week. Culturally, you were good most of the time.

mb2612 T: 3 C: 4
There are a lot of very good stages in there, but somehow it doesn’t fit right. I would have preferred maybe one flat(ish) stage to mix it up and maybe your penultimate stage could have been even harder if you had done that. Culturally, you were on course for a 5, but I was very disappointed with the penultimate stage from that perspective.


JUDGE 3:

Gigs_98 T: 5 C: 3
Technically, both an amazing and savage last week. 3 huge mountain stages with the hardest climb from more than 50km out, there’s little negative to say about that. Add a long TT, which I underrate as I was out of 4s for that stage and I had to get nitpicky about distance. Last GC stage being a huge dirt road stage is great. Could be both a chance for any rider that is behind on GC, not just if you have the edge in the TT or uphill. Culturally it got a bit tough on you as the others were approaching Rome from the south, where you can combine mountains with better cultural heritage.

Brullnux T: 3 C: 4
A mostly hilly last week. That, a flat stage, an MTT, and one of the most savage stages to come from this challenge, make for a decent last week. But then probably only 3 stages guarantee action, and the competition is pretty stiff at this point in the race. Culturally it’s very good.

Rghysens T: 4 C: 4
Very good last week as well. Even the flat stage is tricky enough to not be a total bore, and you that ultra stage is probably the best stage in the entire challenge. The stage before that is great as well, as well as the TT, but because of those stages I think the other hilly stages sort of lose their edge in terms of GC relevance. Culturally, you find a few good places in every stage, and there’s very few things you can do wrong with Capua and Via Appia.

mb2612 T: 4 C: 5
A last week that’s quite relentless. No flat stages at all, and basically every stage has a kick near the end. I feel the last Ultra Stage misses the mark a bit, but the last journey into the mountains is great. Culturally, you get the maximum score, as you’ve scored the maximum 3 times in the last week and you’re averaging more than 4 points per stage in the last week on my count.


JUDGE 4:

Gigs_98 T: 4 C: 3
You have the opposite problem to mb2612; while you've designed a series of great stages and paid great honour to cycling history, often the Roman links are simply that these towns existed in those times rather than any significant cultural link. However, there are some monster stages here, finishing off with the strade bianche could be amazing and you use some real monster passes. The one thing that prevents the full 5 is that the stage with Crostis and Zoncolan comes the day before a long ITT, so with Zoncolan being some way from the finish it might affect the willingness to race on once the monster has made its selection.

Brullnux T: 3 C: 4
I like the creativity with the Via Appia stage after the sterrato and the finishing MTT (which shouldn't dull racing before it as the type of rider favoured will be so different to the previous days and the Via Appia stage is so short), but there were a few bits of general oddness that I wasn't wholly on board with, plus stage 23 had that classic "better in reverse" flaw. Culturally I think you were the only one who still had the Pont du Gard in their back pocket, plus the Vesuvius finish as well as Rome gave you some very strong focal points.

Rghysens T: 4 C: 3
Like Gigs, you have a series of great stages here, beginning the week with some serious mountains and spreading them well through the week. Even the flat stages have some cause for intrigue. However, I'm not totally convinced by the final stage and the Sorrento stage doesn't quite grab me as a big finale for the race in the same way as the strade bianche or the Via Appia stages do. The Verona stage is possibly my favourite use of the ultra stage, though.

mb2612 T: 3 C: 4
If I'm altogether honest, I'm not 100% sold on your final week. Because you'd already used your travelling north from Italy in week 1, it meant a lot of great cycling terrain with Roman heritage went unused. The Potenza and Caposele stages could be great if there's still some GC intrigue, however, as the final TT is very short. The cultural points as ever help you out, with some key locations and it's clear that you've paid very good attention to detail on the cultural side of things all through the race.


CLASSIFICATION FOR WEEK 4 (x5)

Gigs_98: 31 --> 155
mb2612: 30 --> 150
Rghysens: 30 --> 150
Brullnux: 26 --> 130


FINAL CLASSIFICATION!!!:

rghysens: 1239
mb2612: 1186
Gigs_98: 1147
Brullnux: 1079
A race that doesn't give an attacker the chance to finish it off alone is not a race anymore.


Bronze Medal at the Great Grand Tour Game 2012

WARNING: Location says Germany, but I'm Italian...
User avatar Eshnar
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02 Jan 2017 06:48

Cool, thanks to all the judges, and congrats to rghysens for winning, and to Gigs_98 and Brullnux for their, also awesome, routes.
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Re: Race Design Challenge II

02 Jan 2017 10:16

Congrats to rghysens, your route was absolutely incredible, and also congrats to the other participants.

To judge 4, the last ITT wasn't the day after the zoncolan stage because there was a restday between. I forgot to write that somewhere since I thought it would be obvious anyway because the transfer would have been way too long. :o
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02 Jan 2017 15:03

I'd like to congratulate rghysens on winning the most epic contest the internet has to offer.

I'd also like to congratulate Brullnux, mb2612 and Gigs_98 with their efforts, all of you have come up with great routes. Also shoutout to Eshnar for creating this great, crazy challenge.

I must say I've really enjoyed this thread for the past months. I think that as a sport, cycling is uniquely suited to pay tribute not only it's own history, but to history in general, and for me that's part of the reason this challenge works well. Combining some of the craziest race design with honoring such a big part of history makes for one of the more unique threads on this forum for me. I've never been a big history buff, but this challenge has gotten me more interested in parts of history than school ever has.

It's been fun grading these routes and really try to imagine what would happen should they really be raced. It's been more of a struggle to find points to criticize than vice versa. In terms of cultural points, you can probably find people more suited to judging, but whatevs. I mainly looked at things said in the write ups, and googled stuff if they were brief.

The only downsides of the challenge have been the duration and the relatively small amount of participants. I guess both were kind of to be expected. I can only imagine the time that has gone into designing these routes. But then, I think the end result is great, and I don't think this was ever a challenge to be repeated very frequently.
Kwibus wrote:So much quesions they have. Answers they will never get.
So why questions? If no answers?
-Kwibus, one of the great philosophers of the 21st century
User avatar Red Rick
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02 Jan 2017 23:27

Well done to everyone, especially rghysens and his win.

I hope there's a new challenge, perhaps a one day or one week race to mix it up and have more participants.
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03 Jan 2017 09:19

I thought it was a great effort from all concerned.

Technically, I felt there was very little in it when comparing the routes. But as a judge, I kept finding myself giving the eventual winner 4s and 5s culturally.

I would agree with Brullnux - I would be all over a 1 week challenge like a rash. In fact, I am going to start trash talking rghysens soon about who the real champ is. Only a war can resolve it.

Well done to everyone, particularly Eshnar in organising it.
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Re:

03 Jan 2017 10:55

barmaher wrote:...I am going to start trash talking rghysens soon about who the real champ is. Only a war can resolve it...


pfft...
You only won last year because participating in a mere 3-week race challenge in a small country with the easy and bounteous geography of Italy is beneath my dignity. :p

:D
rghysens
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03 Jan 2017 14:13

You only won this year because I bumped your points up to give an easy challenger for me to take down in the decider.

:D
barmaher
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03 Jan 2017 19:14

I totally approve of this.
Kwibus wrote:So much quesions they have. Answers they will never get.
So why questions? If no answers?
-Kwibus, one of the great philosophers of the 21st century
User avatar Red Rick
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03 Jan 2017 19:18

Same, I'd like to see a Tour of Austria or Tour of Switzerland or something like that! I never really got into this one.
"This is the Tour that will determine If I can drink espresso at the Garda lake the rest of my life"
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03 Jan 2017 21:53

My preference would be for a short stage race, which could be anywhere in the world, but has to have say at least one flat, hilly, mountain and tt stage. That way you don't get a lot of people doing identical stages, and also it allows for more people to join, as everyone can pick a location they know pretty well.
mb2612
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Re:

04 Jan 2017 00:38

mb2612 wrote:My preference would be for a short stage race, which could be anywhere in the world, but has to have say at least one flat, hilly, mountain and tt stage. That way you don't get a lot of people doing identical stages, and also it allows for more people to join, as everyone can pick a location they know pretty well.


I think races should at least have a fixed amount of race days. I agree that the region of the race should be free, but having some more specific rules or side challenge could be nice as well.

On the other hand, if we really want to keep it simple, designing a WRR in your hometown could be a fun start.
Kwibus wrote:So much quesions they have. Answers they will never get.
So why questions? If no answers?
-Kwibus, one of the great philosophers of the 21st century
User avatar Red Rick
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Re: Race Design Challenge II

04 Jan 2017 22:54

@barmaher, @rghysens
Ok guys, I think it's time to stop the trash talking and tell everyone the truth.

The real reason why barmaher didn't participate in this challenge isn't that he didn't have enough time, but that he noticed that you can't find enough Roman meals to make 28 munches for the bunch. He knew that he would have absolutely no chance against me without the style points for the munch for the bunch so he decided to not participate. However when I heard that barmaher won't make a route I suddenly lost all my motivation to make a route as well, since I knew that he would be my only rival and that I would easily win in a competition without him. Then something very surprising happened. The ASO had heard a myth that there is this incredible guy, called Gigs_98 on the cyclingnews forum who designs superb cycling races. So they hacked my openrunner account and saw my absolutely perfect route for this Race Design Challenge. The ASO decided to cancel the TdF and the Vuelta for next year to instead make only one huge grand tour, my Tour of Roman Empire. However they had a problem. If I would post my race this autumn everyone would know that they just copy routes for their gt's, so they instead decided to ask me if I would allow them to use my route for their race next year and therefore also not to post it in this thread. Since I didn't care that much about this challenge anymore after I read that Barmaher wouldn't participate I agreed with them.
Then on the day on which the challenge started I saw that the interest in the challenge wasn't overly big and that without my route the whole competition might be cancelled. So I created a completely new route within a few hours so I wouldn't get problems with the ASO but can still participate. Obviously this route wasn't good enough to win, I would have needed at least one more day for that, but it was still a lot of fun to play and I still have to congratulate Rghysens for his half-decent route.
Unfortunately the UCI didn't allow the ASO to completely change the race calendar for next season and since money talks the ASO had to give in and my original route won't be raced next year. Moreover the ASO still has the rights for my route so I unfortunately still can't post it.
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Re: Re:

04 Jan 2017 22:55

Red Rick wrote:
mb2612 wrote:My preference would be for a short stage race, which could be anywhere in the world, but has to have say at least one flat, hilly, mountain and tt stage. That way you don't get a lot of people doing identical stages, and also it allows for more people to join, as everyone can pick a location they know pretty well.


I think races should at least have a fixed amount of race days. I agree that the region of the race should be free, but having some more specific rules or side challenge could be nice as well.

On the other hand, if we really want to keep it simple, designing a WRR in your hometown could be a fun start.

I would love that, but I fear that there are too many towns where it's very difficult to create a good route.
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04 Jan 2017 23:09

I don't think anything shorter than a one-week race would make for a meaningful challenge...
A race that doesn't give an attacker the chance to finish it off alone is not a race anymore.


Bronze Medal at the Great Grand Tour Game 2012

WARNING: Location says Germany, but I'm Italian...
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Re: Race Design Challenge II

05 Jan 2017 07:51

In my opinion, races like Paris-Nice and Tour of Britain are almost ideal: a wide variation in terrain and covering an area that's large enough.
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