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[Green Edge] Shayne Bannan, Gerry Ryan and an Aussie Pro Team for 2012?

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Re:

16 May 2017 02:23

yaco wrote:My guess is that goals will be reset after tomorrow's ITT - Think if Yates stays within 2 1/2 or 3 min of Jungels then he'll go for the Young Riders classification, otherwise will go for stage victories or may even withdraw and ride the TDF.

White's comments were impruden,t but think there is a growing frustration with bad luck, that's plagued the team in stage races this year. A. Yates withdrew from TA during stage 5 when 2nd on GC, while S.Yates punctured just before the final climb in the one mountain stage in Pais Vasco, which ended his GC. So bad luck in three WT stage races.

Thought Moviestar should have backed off the pace or the Commissars neutralised the race, seeing the accident was caused by race officials.


Interesting comparing the Ventoux incident in the Tour with this one. If Nibali and Quintana had also fallen I am betting it would have been neutralized.
movingtarget
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Re:

16 May 2017 03:46

yaco wrote:Thought Moviestar should have backed off the pace or the Commissars neutralised the race, seeing the accident was caused by race officials.
Won't happen without this being an official rule/protocol, which would be a Pandora's can of worms.
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Re: Re:

16 May 2017 05:21

swuzzlebubble wrote:
yaco wrote:Thought Moviestar should have backed off the pace or the Commissars neutralised the race, seeing the accident was caused by race officials.
Won't happen without this being an official rule/protocol, which would be a Pandora's can of worms.


Very much agree. A decision to neutralise is generally made when prevailing race conditions (be they weather or road conditions) for the route, or part of the route, are deemed unsafe for racing. This was not the case with the incident in question.

Had it been the case that the field as a whole was decimated and/or the bulk of the contenders "on the deck" or inconvenienced then there would've been a strong case for a temporary neutralisation but again this was not the case. We had less than a dozen riders on the deck of which only 3 were contenders; most of the remaining peleton were able to avoid/go around. Just not sure that an official neutralisation was warranted.

Codifying a more complete set of rules with regards to neutralisations/race incidents .... and procedures for race/media vehicles or motos; certainly worth pursueing especially regarding the latter but you realistically cannot forsee every possible scenario.

As for White; I do hope he's regained some perspective. Yes, his rider was on the rough end of this incident but its also the case that this particular rider has also benefited from a "moto" incident in a major race. ORS has been on the rough end of some major race accidents (think 2015 TDF) but conversely, they'll also engaged in precisely the same conduct (think Monte Cassino 2014 Giro) for which he is criticising Movistar.
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16 May 2017 07:24

Lets keep it simple. Any race should be neutralised if a race vehicle or official causes an accident.
yaco
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Re:

16 May 2017 08:07

yaco wrote:Lets keep it simple. Any race should be neutralised if a race vehicle or official causes an accident.


No; I cannot agree with such a blanket "mandatory sentencing"/"one size fits all"decree. You need to consider the specific circumstances of each incident, its seriousness and its impacts. GIve the race director the discretion to do so in such instances; am absolutely fine with that but don't tie his/her hands by forcing a decision that may in many cases be an over-reaction.
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Re: Re:

16 May 2017 10:14

dirkprovin wrote:
yaco wrote:Lets keep it simple. Any race should be neutralised if a race vehicle or official causes an accident.


No; I cannot agree with such a blanket "mandatory sentencing"/"one size fits all"decree. You need to consider the specific circumstances of each incident, its seriousness and its impacts. GIve the race director the discretion to do so in such instances; am absolutely fine with that but don't tie his/her hands by forcing a decision that may in many cases be an over-reaction.


I need to clarify this should only happen at the head of the race. Does not apply if behind the leaders.

Remember that stage in the 2016 TDF when Gerrans fell on the descent bringing down two Sky riders. Between Orica,Sky and Cancellara they slowed down the speed to allow the three riders to recover. At the same time this allowed Meinte the main contender to Yates for the white jersey to catch up from a group two minutes behind. This was a case of self regulation which could habe been done by Moviestar.
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Re: Re:

16 May 2017 11:01

yaco wrote:
dirkprovin wrote:
yaco wrote:Lets keep it simple. Any race should be neutralised if a race vehicle or official causes an accident.


No; I cannot agree with such a blanket "mandatory sentencing"/"one size fits all"decree. You need to consider the specific circumstances of each incident, its seriousness and its impacts. GIve the race director the discretion to do so in such instances; am absolutely fine with that but don't tie his/her hands by forcing a decision that may in many cases be an over-reaction.


I need to clarify this should only happen at the head of the race. Does not apply if behind the leaders.

Remember that stage in the 2016 TDF when Gerrans fell on the descent bringing down two Sky riders. Between Orica,Sky and Cancellara they slowed down the speed to allow the three riders to recover. At the same time this allowed Meinte the main contender to Yates for the white jersey to catch up from a group two minutes behind. This was a case of self regulation which could habe been done by Moviestar.


And that was also considerably further from the finish which undoubtedly was a key factor. Such generosity could be afforded. Don't think Orica were necessarily in a position of being able to "boss it to the peleton", the others that you named far more so

Again, each different incident has its own specific circumstances. Do you not think that at least one in the Movistar line didn't take a look behind to see who was still there ? They probably saw that almost everyone (when it comes to the contenders) was still very much present and accounted for. Had it been the case that more had been impacted, then it may have brought about a decision to "rein it back" .... but then, who knows whether another team may then have decided to "break ranks" and keep motoring ?

Will be interesting to see whether anyone at Orica other than Yates actually has a "hit out" in tonight's TT. Hepburn had some decent TT form earlier in the year and hasn't really been called on too much so far in the race so perhaps he may be given a green light
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16 May 2017 16:35

Yates is now 3 minutes behind Jungels for the Young Riders Classification - Every chance Yates can pull that and more in the remaining stages before the TT - My guess is he will continue riding for GC.
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Re:

16 May 2017 16:56

yaco wrote:Yates is now 3 minutes behind Jungels for the Young Riders Classification - Every chance Yates can pull that and more in the remaining stages before the TT - My guess is he will continue riding for GC.


He can conceivably salvage a top 10 finish if he stays fit, healthy and focused. White Jersey may be an ask given Jungels demonstrated at last year's Giro that he can finish a GT in a high finish. Yates would probably need 2 minutes, preferably more, on Jungels going into the final stage TT; thats an ask of over 5 min. Realistically, he'll be needing Jungels to crack horrendously at some point ..... and hope he himself doesn't.

As for TT performances. Yates did as well as could be expected given his relative TT capabilities. An excellent ride from Hepburn (which didn't surprise); a surprisingly good one from Plaza & a reasonably good debut showing from Edmondson. Kinda curious to find out what the time limit was for this TT, was thinking that Ewan & esp Pelucchi might've be flirting with it
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Re: Re:

16 May 2017 17:13

dirkprovin wrote:
yaco wrote:Yates is now 3 minutes behind Jungels for the Young Riders Classification - Every chance Yates can pull that and more in the remaining stages before the TT - My guess is he will continue riding for GC.


He can conceivably salvage a top 10 finish if he stays fit, healthy and focused. White Jersey may be an ask given Jungels demonstrated at last year's Giro that he can finish a GT in a high finish. Yates would probably need 2 minutes, preferably more, on Jungels going into the final stage TT; thats an ask of over 5 min. Realistically, he'll be needing Jungels to crack horrendously at some point ..... and hope he himself doesn't.

As for TT performances. Yates did as well as could be expected given his relative TT capabilities. An excellent ride from Hepburn (which didn't surprise); a surprisingly good one from Plaza & a reasonably good debut showing from Edmondson. Kinda curious to find out what the time limit was for this TT, was thinking that Ewan & esp Pelucchi might've be flirting with it


Pelucchi was OTL at 16 minutes, pretty sure Ewan had a couple of minutes to play with.

Plaza was a surprise, I'd expect him to be allowed to look for breakaway opportunities once the roads tilt upwards again.
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16 May 2017 17:15

Probably a good decision to send Chaves away from giro. Tommy d would have put some time in there
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Re: Re:

16 May 2017 17:17

dirkprovin wrote:
swuzzlebubble wrote:
yaco wrote:Thought Moviestar should have backed off the pace or the Commissars neutralised the race, seeing the accident was caused by race officials.
Won't happen without this being an official rule/protocol, which would be a Pandora's can of worms.


Very much agree. A decision to neutralise is generally made when prevailing race conditions (be they weather or road conditions) for the route, or part of the route, are deemed unsafe for racing. This was not the case with the incident in question.

Had it been the case that the field as a whole was decimated and/or the bulk of the contenders "on the deck" or inconvenienced then there would've been a strong case for a temporary neutralisation but again this was not the case. We had less than a dozen riders on the deck of which only 3 were contenders; most of the remaining peleton were able to avoid/go around. Just not sure that an official neutralisation was warranted.

Codifying a more complete set of rules with regards to neutralisations/race incidents .... and procedures for race/media vehicles or motos; certainly worth pursueing especially regarding the latter but you realistically cannot forsee every possible scenario.

As for White; I do hope he's regained some perspective. Yes, his rider was on the rough end of this incident but its also the case that this particular rider has also benefited from a "moto" incident in a major race. ORS has been on the rough end of some major race accidents (think 2015 TDF) but conversely, they'll also engaged in precisely the same conduct (think Monte Cassino 2014 Giro) for which he is criticising Movistar.

While out there, if this was a rule I couldn't put it past a team with a sick rider to sacrifice themselves hitting a moto to protect a sick team leader especially if the next big GC stage is 5 days away for example
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Re: Re:

16 May 2017 17:21

StryderHells wrote:
dirkprovin wrote:
yaco wrote:Yates is now 3 minutes behind Jungels for the Young Riders Classification - Every chance Yates can pull that and more in the remaining stages before the TT - My guess is he will continue riding for GC.


He can conceivably salvage a top 10 finish if he stays fit, healthy and focused. White Jersey may be an ask given Jungels demonstrated at last year's Giro that he can finish a GT in a high finish. Yates would probably need 2 minutes, preferably more, on Jungels going into the final stage TT; thats an ask of over 5 min. Realistically, he'll be needing Jungels to crack horrendously at some point ..... and hope he himself doesn't.

As for TT performances. Yates did as well as could be expected given his relative TT capabilities. An excellent ride from Hepburn (which didn't surprise); a surprisingly good one from Plaza & a reasonably good debut showing from Edmondson. Kinda curious to find out what the time limit was for this TT, was thinking that Ewan & esp Pelucchi might've be flirting with it


Pelucchi was OTL at 16 minutes, pretty sure Ewan had a couple of minutes to play with.

Plaza was a surprise, I'd expect him to be allowed to look for breakaway opportunities once the roads tilt upwards again.


So they DID OTL Pelucchi, wasn't showing up as such on results sheet until a short time ago. A 30% cutoff and Ewan had a couple of minutes, at 25% ... very perilous !

Re Plaza; yes it does raise the possibility of employing him strategically given he clearly has some reasonable legs.
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Re: Re:

16 May 2017 18:34

StryderHells wrote:
dirkprovin wrote:
yaco wrote:Yates is now 3 minutes behind Jungels for the Young Riders Classification - Every chance Yates can pull that and more in the remaining stages before the TT - My guess is he will continue riding for GC.


He can conceivably salvage a top 10 finish if he stays fit, healthy and focused. White Jersey may be an ask given Jungels demonstrated at last year's Giro that he can finish a GT in a high finish. Yates would probably need 2 minutes, preferably more, on Jungels going into the final stage TT; thats an ask of over 5 min. Realistically, he'll be needing Jungels to crack horrendously at some point ..... and hope he himself doesn't.

As for TT performances. Yates did as well as could be expected given his relative TT capabilities. An excellent ride from Hepburn (which didn't surprise); a surprisingly good one from Plaza & a reasonably good debut showing from Edmondson. Kinda curious to find out what the time limit was for this TT, was thinking that Ewan & esp Pelucchi might've be flirting with it


Pelucchi was OTL at 16 minutes, pretty sure Ewan had a couple of minutes to play with.

Plaza was a surprise, I'd expect him to be allowed to look for breakaway opportunities once the roads tilt upwards again.


Ewan was an embarrassment today - I understand 60 to 70% of riders just get around in the ITT, but Ewan who was featured three times on the coverage, wasn't trying at all - He was barely pedalling and this was in the first half of the ITT.
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16 May 2017 18:38

Verona is the one with good legs and may go in breakaways - Yates can follow Movie Star who will attack the race - I suspect with Movie Star going full gas then the breakaways will be in for disappointment - Possibly a late breakaway say on the final climb could escape.
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Re: Re:

17 May 2017 00:50

yaco wrote:
StryderHells wrote:
dirkprovin wrote:
yaco wrote:Yates is now 3 minutes behind Jungels for the Young Riders Classification - Every chance Yates can pull that and more in the remaining stages before the TT - My guess is he will continue riding for GC.


He can conceivably salvage a top 10 finish if he stays fit, healthy and focused. White Jersey may be an ask given Jungels demonstrated at last year's Giro that he can finish a GT in a high finish. Yates would probably need 2 minutes, preferably more, on Jungels going into the final stage TT; thats an ask of over 5 min. Realistically, he'll be needing Jungels to crack horrendously at some point ..... and hope he himself doesn't.

As for TT performances. Yates did as well as could be expected given his relative TT capabilities. An excellent ride from Hepburn (which didn't surprise); a surprisingly good one from Plaza & a reasonably good debut showing from Edmondson. Kinda curious to find out what the time limit was for this TT, was thinking that Ewan & esp Pelucchi might've be flirting with it


Pelucchi was OTL at 16 minutes, pretty sure Ewan had a couple of minutes to play with.

Plaza was a surprise, I'd expect him to be allowed to look for breakaway opportunities once the roads tilt upwards again.


Ewan was an embarrassment today - I understand 60 to 70% of riders just get around in the ITT, but Ewan who was featured three times on the coverage, wasn't trying at all - He was barely pedalling and this was in the first half of the ITT.

He would have been paced by the DS to just get around inside the time limit
If he could have gone a couple of minutes quicker, big deal
Big couple of days coming up for him (stg 12 & 13), and therefore the team
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Re:

17 May 2017 01:12

yaco wrote:Lets keep it simple. Any race should be neutralised if a race vehicle or official causes an accident.
Perhaps some means for a rider to be given time redress. Similar to the 3km rule.
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Re: Re:

17 May 2017 04:02

yaco wrote:
StryderHells wrote:
dirkprovin wrote:
yaco wrote:Yates is now 3 minutes behind Jungels for the Young Riders Classification - Every chance Yates can pull that and more in the remaining stages before the TT - My guess is he will continue riding for GC.


He can conceivably salvage a top 10 finish if he stays fit, healthy and focused. White Jersey may be an ask given Jungels demonstrated at last year's Giro that he can finish a GT in a high finish. Yates would probably need 2 minutes, preferably more, on Jungels going into the final stage TT; thats an ask of over 5 min. Realistically, he'll be needing Jungels to crack horrendously at some point ..... and hope he himself doesn't.

As for TT performances. Yates did as well as could be expected given his relative TT capabilities. An excellent ride from Hepburn (which didn't surprise); a surprisingly good one from Plaza & a reasonably good debut showing from Edmondson. Kinda curious to find out what the time limit was for this TT, was thinking that Ewan & esp Pelucchi might've be flirting with it


Pelucchi was OTL at 16 minutes, pretty sure Ewan had a couple of minutes to play with.

Plaza was a surprise, I'd expect him to be allowed to look for breakaway opportunities once the roads tilt upwards again.


Ewan was an embarrassment today - I understand 60 to 70% of riders just get around in the ITT, but Ewan who was featured three times on the coverage, wasn't trying at all - He was barely pedalling and this was in the first half of the ITT.


How was Ewan an embarrassment? He did exactly what he was meant to do, why should he waste energy in a stage that he would of been told not to waste energy as another stage win for the team is important since the GC looks all but over. Just take a look at Victor Campenaerts, he is a quality TT rider but did nothing more than turn the legs over and came in at 182 at the finish, was that embarrassing or riding to team orders so he can be of use in the upcoming stages. I guess by your logic most riders on a mountain stage who just turn the legs over in the groupetto are an embarrassment.
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17 May 2017 04:40

I wouldn't classify him performance as an embarassment. It is a discipline in which, other than the very shortest prologues, he is frankly inept. However, when you are in his position of having to start quite early in such a TT; you cannot have perfect prescience of just how fast the winner is likely to go so if he was "playing the preservation game", there is still a distinct possibility of it biting you on the rear if you get too cute.

Stage 13, and maybe 12, look possibilities but what shape is he in and how is his recovery going to be; especially if they decide to race Stg12 hard ? Yes, he could snag another win if things fall his way but his best chances were in the first week and he only batted 1/5.

As for GC; the podium is clearly out of reach but a top10 is still highly plausible and the white jersey some possibility. Don't think they'll throw it all over to stage hunting unless Yates blows out further
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Re: Re:

17 May 2017 13:52

StryderHells wrote:
yaco wrote:
StryderHells wrote:
dirkprovin wrote:
yaco wrote:Yates is now 3 minutes behind Jungels for the Young Riders Classification - Every chance Yates can pull that and more in the remaining stages before the TT - My guess is he will continue riding for GC.


He can conceivably salvage a top 10 finish if he stays fit, healthy and focused. White Jersey may be an ask given Jungels demonstrated at last year's Giro that he can finish a GT in a high finish. Yates would probably need 2 minutes, preferably more, on Jungels going into the final stage TT; thats an ask of over 5 min. Realistically, he'll be needing Jungels to crack horrendously at some point ..... and hope he himself doesn't.

As for TT performances. Yates did as well as could be expected given his relative TT capabilities. An excellent ride from Hepburn (which didn't surprise); a surprisingly good one from Plaza & a reasonably good debut showing from Edmondson. Kinda curious to find out what the time limit was for this TT, was thinking that Ewan & esp Pelucchi might've be flirting with it


Pelucchi was OTL at 16 minutes, pretty sure Ewan had a couple of minutes to play with.

Plaza was a surprise, I'd expect him to be allowed to look for breakaway opportunities once the roads tilt upwards again.


Ewan was an embarrassment today - I understand 60 to 70% of riders just get around in the ITT, but Ewan who was featured three times on the coverage, wasn't trying at all - He was barely pedalling and this was in the first half of the ITT.


How was Ewan an embarrassment? He did exactly what he was meant to do, why should he waste energy in a stage that he would of been told not to waste energy as another stage win for the team is important since the GC looks all but over. Just take a look at Victor Campenaerts, he is a quality TT rider but did nothing more than turn the legs over and came in at 182 at the finish, was that embarrassing or riding to team orders so he can be of use in the upcoming stages. I guess by your logic most riders on a mountain stage who just turn the legs over in the groupetto are an embarrassment.


Ewan only just made the time limit - Ride like this and you could get unlucky if someone pulls out a super-human TT - At least Campaenarts was riding slowly so he could find a date.
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