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[Green Edge] Shayne Bannan, Gerry Ryan and an Aussie Pro Team for 2012?

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Re:

17 May 2017 13:54

dirkprovin wrote:I wouldn't classify him performance as an embarassment. It is a discipline in which, other than the very shortest prologues, he is frankly inept. However, when you are in his position of having to start quite early in such a TT; you cannot have perfect prescience of just how fast the winner is likely to go so if he was "playing the preservation game", there is still a distinct possibility of it biting you on the rear if you get too cute.

Stage 13, and maybe 12, look possibilities but what shape is he in and how is his recovery going to be; especially if they decide to race Stg12 hard ? Yes, he could snag another win if things fall his way but his best chances were in the first week and he only batted 1/5.

As for GC; the podium is clearly out of reach but a top10 is still highly plausible and the white jersey some possibility. Don't think they'll throw it all over to stage hunting unless Yates blows out further


Strange that Orica didn't put A.Yates into the breakaway - Peleton would have given him licence to join the breakaway and on a good day could have taken one or two minutes.
yaco
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Re: Re:

17 May 2017 15:29

yaco wrote:
dirkprovin wrote:I wouldn't classify him performance as an embarassment. It is a discipline in which, other than the very shortest prologues, he is frankly inept. However, when you are in his position of having to start quite early in such a TT; you cannot have perfect prescience of just how fast the winner is likely to go so if he was "playing the preservation game", there is still a distinct possibility of it biting you on the rear if you get too cute.

Stage 13, and maybe 12, look possibilities but what shape is he in and how is his recovery going to be; especially if they decide to race Stg12 hard ? Yes, he could snag another win if things fall his way but his best chances were in the first week and he only batted 1/5.

As for GC; the podium is clearly out of reach but a top10 is still highly plausible and the white jersey some possibility. Don't think they'll throw it all over to stage hunting unless Yates blows out further


Strange that Orica didn't put A.Yates into the breakaway - Peleton would have given him licence to join the breakaway and on a good day could have taken one or two minutes.


Nah, he'd probably have needed to be closer to 10min down before the current contenders or even those teams batting for top10's would give him that leeway. Kangert & Cataldo WERE ahead of him on GC but they would be seen as significantly lesser threats longer term. What WAS annoying was watching the same old, same old "I wanna ride at the back of the group". Somewhere along the way, some DS at whatever team it may be will need to take a stockwhip to him to rid him of this fetish. :sad:
dirkprovin
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Re: Re:

17 May 2017 15:44

dirkprovin wrote:
yaco wrote:
dirkprovin wrote:I wouldn't classify him performance as an embarassment. It is a discipline in which, other than the very shortest prologues, he is frankly inept. However, when you are in his position of having to start quite early in such a TT; you cannot have perfect prescience of just how fast the winner is likely to go so if he was "playing the preservation game", there is still a distinct possibility of it biting you on the rear if you get too cute.

Stage 13, and maybe 12, look possibilities but what shape is he in and how is his recovery going to be; especially if they decide to race Stg12 hard ? Yes, he could snag another win if things fall his way but his best chances were in the first week and he only batted 1/5.

As for GC; the podium is clearly out of reach but a top10 is still highly plausible and the white jersey some possibility. Don't think they'll throw it all over to stage hunting unless Yates blows out further


Strange that Orica didn't put A.Yates into the breakaway - Peleton would have given him licence to join the breakaway and on a good day could have taken one or two minutes.


Nah, he'd probably have needed to be closer to 10min down before the current contenders or even those teams batting for top10's would give him that leeway. Kangert & Cataldo WERE ahead of him on GC but they would be seen as significantly lesser threats longer term. What WAS annoying was watching the same old, same old "I wanna ride at the back of the group". Somewhere along the way, some DS at whatever team it may be will need to take a stockwhip to him to rid him of this fetish. :sad:


Amador and Kangert who were ahead of Yates were allowed in the break - I couldn't understand calling Plaza back on the descent of the final climb with 15km's to go. He was in the chasing group 15s behind Rolland and Freire, while Yates was safe in the Pink Jersey group - I could understand if Yates had a gap on the Pink Jersey group or was struggling behind the pink jersey group - Plaza could have been in the final - A bad day for Orica Anyway off to watch the Tour of Norway.
yaco
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Re: Re:

17 May 2017 16:07

yaco wrote:
dirkprovin wrote:
yaco wrote:
dirkprovin wrote:I wouldn't classify him performance as an embarassment. It is a discipline in which, other than the very shortest prologues, he is frankly inept. However, when you are in his position of having to start quite early in such a TT; you cannot have perfect prescience of just how fast the winner is likely to go so if he was "playing the preservation game", there is still a distinct possibility of it biting you on the rear if you get too cute.

Stage 13, and maybe 12, look possibilities but what shape is he in and how is his recovery going to be; especially if they decide to race Stg12 hard ? Yes, he could snag another win if things fall his way but his best chances were in the first week and he only batted 1/5.

As for GC; the podium is clearly out of reach but a top10 is still highly plausible and the white jersey some possibility. Don't think they'll throw it all over to stage hunting unless Yates blows out further


Strange that Orica didn't put A.Yates into the breakaway - Peleton would have given him licence to join the breakaway and on a good day could have taken one or two minutes.


Nah, he'd probably have needed to be closer to 10min down before the current contenders or even those teams batting for top10's would give him that leeway. Kangert & Cataldo WERE ahead of him on GC but they would be seen as significantly lesser threats longer term. What WAS annoying was watching the same old, same old "I wanna ride at the back of the group". Somewhere along the way, some DS at whatever team it may be will need to take a stockwhip to him to rid him of this fetish. :sad:


Amador and Kangert who were ahead of Yates were allowed in the break - I couldn't understand calling Plaza back on the descent of the final climb with 15km's to go. He was in the chasing group 15s behind Rolland and Freire, while Yates was safe in the Pink Jersey group - I could understand if Yates had a gap on the Pink Jersey group or was struggling behind the pink jersey group - Plaza could have been in the final - A bad day for Orica Anyway off to watch the Tour of Norway.


Agree that calling Plaza back was overly conservative at best. Cataldo & Kangert were ahead of Yates on standings but they haven't the 3 week form so most likely not seen as long term threats. Amador most certainly DOES have 3 week "form" but he (and his final placing) have to be seen as a very distant 2nd priority to Quintana at this point. Anyhow, which team here has the power to boss Movistar around at this Giro ? Certainly not Sky, certainly not Sunweb, certainly not Orica .... basically they're the ones throwing a rule over who's going to be allowed up the road, just as UK Postal does at the Tour.
dirkprovin
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Re: Re:

17 May 2017 18:41

dirkprovin wrote:
yaco wrote:
dirkprovin wrote:
yaco wrote:
dirkprovin wrote:I wouldn't classify him performance as an embarassment. It is a discipline in which, other than the very shortest prologues, he is frankly inept. However, when you are in his position of having to start quite early in such a TT; you cannot have perfect prescience of just how fast the winner is likely to go so if he was "playing the preservation game", there is still a distinct possibility of it biting you on the rear if you get too cute.

Stage 13, and maybe 12, look possibilities but what shape is he in and how is his recovery going to be; especially if they decide to race Stg12 hard ? Yes, he could snag another win if things fall his way but his best chances were in the first week and he only batted 1/5.

As for GC; the podium is clearly out of reach but a top10 is still highly plausible and the white jersey some possibility. Don't think they'll throw it all over to stage hunting unless Yates blows out further


Strange that Orica didn't put A.Yates into the breakaway - Peleton would have given him licence to join the breakaway and on a good day could have taken one or two minutes.


Nah, he'd probably have needed to be closer to 10min down before the current contenders or even those teams batting for top10's would give him that leeway. Kangert & Cataldo WERE ahead of him on GC but they would be seen as significantly lesser threats longer term. What WAS annoying was watching the same old, same old "I wanna ride at the back of the group". Somewhere along the way, some DS at whatever team it may be will need to take a stockwhip to him to rid him of this fetish. :sad:


Amador and Kangert who were ahead of Yates were allowed in the break - I couldn't understand calling Plaza back on the descent of the final climb with 15km's to go. He was in the chasing group 15s behind Rolland and Freire, while Yates was safe in the Pink Jersey group - I could understand if Yates had a gap on the Pink Jersey group or was struggling behind the pink jersey group - Plaza could have been in the final - A bad day for Orica Anyway off to watch the Tour of Norway.


Agree that calling Plaza back was overly conservative at best. Cataldo & Kangert were ahead of Yates on standings but they haven't the 3 week form so most likely not seen as long term threats. Amador most certainly DOES have 3 week "form" but he (and his final placing) have to be seen as a very distant 2nd priority to Quintana at this point. Anyhow, which team here has the power to boss Movistar around at this Giro ? Certainly not Sky, certainly not Sunweb, certainly not Orica .... basically they're the ones throwing a rule over who's going to be allowed up the road, just as UK Postal does at the Tour.


Ah ! - Can see why the tactics went askew today, after listening to White's 12 minute tirade on the 'Three Domestique's' podcast - Could say White vented his spleen after the Blockhaus debacle.
yaco
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17 May 2017 19:01

White has many positive qualities with regards to team management and building a team; however I DO have to rate him a significantly less astute race tactician than Stephens. He's pulled a number of somewhat questionable reins at various points of this Giro and his lack of an edit switch on his mouth has not been helpful, Perhaps something that Messrs Ryan & Bannan to consider with regards to roles within the organisation going forward. White almost certainly can play a very major and positive part but I'm just not sure that a race DS's seat is one of the more optimal ones
dirkprovin
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18 May 2017 16:02

I'd give Edmondson a chance for the final tomorrow - On raw speed,he'll be top 10 and can finish top 5 with a good ride.
yaco
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Re:

18 May 2017 16:06

yaco wrote:I'd give Edmondson a chance for the final tomorrow - On raw speed,he'll be top 10 and can finish top 5 with a good ride.


I wouldn't be against that !! Both he and Ewan are almost certain to be handed their plane tickets after tomorrow's stage so why not let him have a run. Whilst he's very green and not yet tactically savvy, neither is Ewan and Edmondson IS bigger, physically stronger and thus probably less likely to be knocked about in the argy bargy.
dirkprovin
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Re: Re:

18 May 2017 16:12

dirkprovin wrote:
yaco wrote:I'd give Edmondson a chance for the final tomorrow - On raw speed,he'll be top 10 and can finish top 5 with a good ride.


I wouldn't be against that !! Both he and Ewan are almost certain to be handed their plane tickets after tomorrow's stage so why not let him have a run. Whilst he's very green and not yet tactically savvy, neither is Ewan and Edmondson IS bigger, physically stronger and thus probably less likely to be knocked about in the argy bargy.


Ultimately, Orica got their stage win with Ewan which is always considered to be a success - I want Ewan to finish the Giro because building up endurance is essential for a third year pro - Want Edmondson to go as far as he can in the Giro - Also they can share some of the early workload in the remaining stages, so that Juul-Jensen isn't killed with his workload.
yaco
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Re: Re:

18 May 2017 16:48

yaco wrote:
dirkprovin wrote:
yaco wrote:I'd give Edmondson a chance for the final tomorrow - On raw speed,he'll be top 10 and can finish top 5 with a good ride.


I wouldn't be against that !! Both he and Ewan are almost certain to be handed their plane tickets after tomorrow's stage so why not let him have a run. Whilst he's very green and not yet tactically savvy, neither is Ewan and Edmondson IS bigger, physically stronger and thus probably less likely to be knocked about in the argy bargy.


Ultimately, Orica got their stage win with Ewan which is always considered to be a success - I want Ewan to finish the Giro because building up endurance is essential for a third year pro - Want Edmondson to go as far as he can in the Giro - Also they can share some of the early workload in the remaining stages, so that Juul-Jensen isn't killed with his workload.


Do you honestly expect Ewan to be able to survive ?? Sorry but I'd rate those odds as having at least 2 zeros at the end. I wouldn't waste team logistics on him as he adds absolutely NO other utility other than perhaps a bottle run during the first hour of racing (if its not uphill).

Yeah, he's got his stage win but in all honesty he's currently batting 1 from 6 outings; hardly a great return on investment for all the brutal hard slog some of his team have been doing on the front of the peleton !! Then again, perhaps it will finally hit home to ORS hierarchy that you CANNOT seriously pursue both GC at GT level plus sprint wins with a sprinter who is as labour intensive as Ewan. Quick guys who can "freelance" or not need major diversion of resources PLUS offer meaningful support for GC .... they're fine.

I have little doubt that you would NOT approve of my Ewan strategy for next season but hey, I'm a cold blooded old meanie. I'd let him rack up as many early season wins as possible (and fully support him for those races) in order to build up a nice tempting swag of WT points to make him attractive to WT teams needing them to survive .... then send him to the B races for the rest of the year.

Edmondson is essentially a neo-pro, I think tomorrow will be enough for his first outing. Given he has a bigger engine and potentially wider utility going forward, I WOULD take your approach with his next GT outing after he's got considerably more top line race miles into him.
dirkprovin
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18 May 2017 17:02

Checked the replay and Ewan was about 7th wheel behind Mezgec with 800 metres to go - Have no idea what happened.
yaco
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Re:

18 May 2017 17:25

yaco wrote:Checked the replay and Ewan was about 7th wheel behind Mezgec with 800 metres to go - Have no idea what happened.


According to their 'after report', he "hit another rider and has bent his brake pad. When the mechanics received the bike after the race, the wheel wouldn’t spin a full rotation. Unfortunately it’s impossible to compete in the sprint with that type of issue.”

Those knocks are part & parcel of bunch sprinting; some go your way whilst others don't. Regrettably for Ewan, he's less physically equipped than most to be able to hold his own in any contact situation.
dirkprovin
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18 May 2017 17:58

News from the Columbia crew

@SamBewley May 14th "Rough day today. Heading in for surgery tomorrow to fix a broken finger after a crash. I'll be back on the home trainer the day after though" "Hopefully back on the road in not much more than a week. My wishes are with one of our Colombian training partners who is worse Of than me!"

May 15th https://t.co/DSOUHiH0wi
dirkprovin
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18 May 2017 19:03

Not the best news with the TDF only just over 6 weeks away - Bewley should be OK if he's selected to ride the TDF - He's down to ride the Hammer Series from June 2 to 4.
yaco
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Re:

18 May 2017 20:23

yaco wrote:Not the best news with the TDF only just over 6 weeks away - Bewley should be OK if he's selected to ride the TDF - He's down to ride the Hammer Series from June 2 to 4.


He posted a clip on the 17th of him back on the home trainer at Chaves' place (or wherever they're staying) albeit with his hand heavily protected. Unless there's any complications with the injury between then and the start of TDF, he'll be there as Chaves' designated "minder" in the pack. Whilst others certainly have the size/physique to fill the gap, none of them have the personal relationship on the same level (both off road and on).
dirkprovin
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Re: Re:

19 May 2017 02:21

dirkprovin wrote:
yaco wrote:
dirkprovin wrote:
yaco wrote:I'd give Edmondson a chance for the final tomorrow - On raw speed,he'll be top 10 and can finish top 5 with a good ride.


I wouldn't be against that !! Both he and Ewan are almost certain to be handed their plane tickets after tomorrow's stage so why not let him have a run. Whilst he's very green and not yet tactically savvy, neither is Ewan and Edmondson IS bigger, physically stronger and thus probably less likely to be knocked about in the argy bargy.


Ultimately, Orica got their stage win with Ewan which is always considered to be a success - I want Ewan to finish the Giro because building up endurance is essential for a third year pro - Want Edmondson to go as far as he can in the Giro - Also they can share some of the early workload in the remaining stages, so that Juul-Jensen isn't killed with his workload.


Do you honestly expect Ewan to be able to survive ?? Sorry but I'd rate those odds as having at least 2 zeros at the end. I wouldn't waste team logistics on him as he adds absolutely NO other utility other than perhaps a bottle run during the first hour of racing (if its not uphill).

Yeah, he's got his stage win but in all honesty he's currently batting 1 from 6 outings; hardly a great return on investment for all the brutal hard slog some of his team have been doing on the front of the peleton !! Then again, perhaps it will finally hit home to ORS hierarchy that you CANNOT seriously pursue both GC at GT level plus sprint wins with a sprinter who is as labour intensive as Ewan. Quick guys who can "freelance" or not need major diversion of resources PLUS offer meaningful support for GC .... they're fine.

I have little doubt that you would NOT approve of my Ewan strategy for next season but hey, I'm a cold blooded old meanie. I'd let him rack up as many early season wins as possible (and fully support him for those races) in order to build up a nice tempting swag of WT points to make him attractive to WT teams needing them to survive .... then send him to the B races for the rest of the year.

Edmondson is essentially a neo-pro, I think tomorrow will be enough for his first outing. Given he has a bigger engine and potentially wider utility going forward, I WOULD take your approach with his next GT outing after he's got considerably more top line race miles into him.

Ewan was fine on the stage to Blockhaus, finishing with Gaviria and ahead of Greipel. It's only since then that he's had issues.

If possible, I'd like to see him finish regardless, because the strength gained from a GT is crucial to Ewan's development at this stage of his career.
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Re: Re:

19 May 2017 03:40

42x16ss wrote:If possible, I'd like to see him finish regardless, because the strength gained from a GT is crucial to Ewan's development at this stage of his career.


Bang on with this! If he finishes OTL on one of the big mountain stages in the 3rd week then fair enough but he should try and finish the race if the team allows him to do this, it will only make him stronger and give him confidence. The argument some here make that it would be a waste of team resources for him to continue after the next stage aren't looking at the bigger picture.
This is Cocaine...This is Chloroform...In short we ride on Dynamite!
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Re: Re:

19 May 2017 13:52

StryderHells wrote:
42x16ss wrote:If possible, I'd like to see him finish regardless, because the strength gained from a GT is crucial to Ewan's development at this stage of his career.


Bang on with this! If he finishes OTL on one of the big mountain stages in the 3rd week then fair enough but he should try and finish the race if the team allows him to do this, it will only make him stronger and give him confidence. The argument some here make that it would be a waste of team resources for him to continue after the next stage aren't looking at the bigger picture.


You also have to be realistic with the mountain stages to come. Will he finish inside the time limit ? I think the odds are against it. I think he will head home after this stage.
movingtarget
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19 May 2017 15:32

Will be interesting to see Ewan's program for the rest of 2017 and looking forward to 2018 - Imagine he'll ride Tour of Britain, one day WT races in France and Germany but beyond that he may do lots of training - 2018 will be Abu Dhabi, TA, TDU and the Giro.
yaco
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Re:

19 May 2017 16:00

yaco wrote:Will be interesting to see Ewan's program for the rest of 2017 and looking forward to 2018 - Imagine he'll ride Tour of Britain, one day WT races in France and Germany but beyond that he may do lots of training - 2018 will be Abu Dhabi, TA, TDU and the Giro.


Can't see a case for sending him to the Vuelta this year unless both AY & Chaves are out of action; I think this Giro should have proven to ORS that supporting both a GC man plus Ewan is just burning up too many resources.

Ride London - possibly, although he'd need them NOT to race Box Hill too hard for him to be a factor in the finish. Otherwise it sending him to maybe win stages in Poland.

Eneco - quite possible

Hamburg - definite

Bretagne - highly unlikely, much more a puncheurs race

Tour of Britain - IF they decide to race there (at this point no confirmation as to whether that will be the case)

As for next year, usual practice to rack up easy pickings & WT points early season. AS for any GTs, lets just see race routes first
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