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Race Design Thread

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Re: Race Design Thread

12 Sep 2017 19:27

jsem94 wrote:Beautiful start so far!

Thanks a lot. I like the idea of a ~10km Prologue/ITT followed by a hilly stage with a technical finale. GC guys will play the safe card, while an outsider could try to risk a bit and fight for the leader's jersey or just limit the loses from ITT. I guess such scenario works only in my head. Interestingly, i think it was 1977 Giro, when on a smilar stage GC guys gave a pass to De Muynck (who was 2nd in 1975), and he managed to protect his advantage up to Venice (i think it was the grande finale in 1977). Of course in this day and age it won't happen, but for a non-gc guy or even an outsider wearing Maglia Rosa for 2 days should be thrilling enough to take some risks and try to push for the stage win. I hope i explained my thought well enough.

First form-check stage. If you're still a bit off-form, you can lose a lot of time.

Previous stage: link

Giro d'Italia – stage 4. Nicastro. Lamezia Terme – Camigliatello Silano, 211km, mountain.
https://www.la-flamme-rouge.eu/maps/viewtrack/hd/149887
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Climbs:
Passo Condrò – 17km, 5,2%, cat. 2, 1050m
Valico di Carlopoli – 5km, 6,2%, cat. 3, 972m
Pentone – 5,2km, 4,5%, cat. 4, 838m
Valico di Tirivolo – 15,6km, 6,8%, cat. 1, 1509m
Valico di Monte Scuro – 24km, 5,7%, cat. 1, 1618m

This stage ventures in La Sila mountains, utilising the hardest climbs of Sila Piccola and Sila Grande i could find. Both climbs, that i've managed to find aren't the toughest in the world, but they're hard enough for a Giro cat. 1, and you really, really need to earn a Giro cat. 1. It's not TdF with Latrape bullcrab.

Riders will stay overnight in Nicastro, where this stage starts. Then they'll head away from the coast through Sila Piccola (represented mainly by Monte Gariglione, 1765m) north of Catanzaro, and then stay for roughly 40km on a plateau before going down to Cosenza, leaving Sila Piccola for Sila Grande. On this stage Sila Grande is represented by Monte Botte Donato (1939m), Monte Curcio (1788m) and Monte Scuro (1633m).

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Passo Condrò.

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La Sila.

Finish is in Camigliatello Silano – a small ski station and one of the main mountain resorts of La Sila. The finish is on Via Falcone e Borsellino, at the end of a 380m straight. It was once a Giro finish in 1982 on a stage won by Bernard Becaas from a breakaway. The last climb was a much easier drag to Silvana Mansio.

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One of the very rare photos of Camigliatello Silano.

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Taverna.

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Albi.

The stage also visits one of the biggest cities in Calabria – Cosenza. This very picturesque city located on the fork of Crati and Busento rivers is mainly known for it's very long, commercial straightaway Corso Mazzini, a XIII c. gothic Cattedrale di Santa Maria Assunta, Chiesa di San Francesco di Paola and hilltop Castello Svevo patronized by Frederick II.

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Cosenza.

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Castello Svevo, Cosenza.

The main features of this stage are two cat. 1 climbs to Tirivolo and Monte Scuro. Both are borderline TdF HC cat. climbs. Tirivolo is narrower and more irregular with some easier and tougher parts up to roughly 14%, while Monte Scuro (or Montescuro) is a regular 6% drag with easier 4km at 3-4% followed by 1km at 10% (max 14%). Last 13km are at constant 6%. The top is 10km from the finish line. The descent is wide and not steep (6%), but quite technical with 3 serpentines and plenty of turns. Last 4km from Moccone are flat-ish.

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Profile of Tirivolo, starting from 3km mark.

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Profile of Monte Scuro.

Monte Scuro should work well with any of the climbs (there are plenty of these) in Catena Costiera between Cosenza and the Tyrrhenian coast. Monte Cocuzzo with 15km at 7,2% is probably the tastiest while easier Passo della Crocetta is probably the prettiest. There's also an alternative (and slightly tougher) side of Monte Scuro from Quattromiglia, but it includes a very, very bad sterrato section (it's basically just a mountain path).

What could be expected? I doubt you could won the entire race on this stage, but you can lose it. I guess it'll be a Sky-esque uphill train with roughly 10-man group at the top and probably on the finish line. Maybe someone will try for a testing push in the last 2km and then keep the pressure on the descent. The GC group should have a quite significant (maybe even over 1 min) lead over the next group. I guess a guy like Esteban Chavez would be a favourite to win.

The next stage is very similar to this one, but rather than two serious climbs it'll have only one, but harder than the ones on this stage.
railxmig
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Re: Race Design Thread

13 Sep 2017 16:52

Previous stage: link

Giro d'Italia – stage 5. Corigliano Calabro – Castrovillari, 215km, mountain.
https://www.la-flamme-rouge.eu/maps/viewtrack/hd/150031
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Climbs:
Prato di Amendolara – 7,2km, 4,7%, cat. 4, 351m
Valico di Farneta – 9,8km, 4,7%, cat. 3, 781m
Monte Tumbarino – 10,3km, 5,7%, cat. 2, 1090m
San Severino Lucano – 14km, 3,6%, cat. 3, 862m
Colle Ruggio – 16,5km, 7,6%, cat. 1, 1602m

This time it's yet another over 200km stage (2 of 3) with a profile kinda resembling a more spread out (mainly longer descent) version of Bagnères-de-Luchon after Port de Balès. I guess the outcome will be similar to the previous stage to Camigliatello Silano. Maybe the GC group will be slightly bigger. Last 50km should be interesting to watch, as Colle Ruggio is a tough bugger and it should do a major selection in the peloton.

It's the 2nd stage in Calabria, but it also features a bit of Basilicata. This time the stage is mainly on the Ionian coast. The stage starts in Corigliano Calabro. This hilltop town is known for a very nice looking Norman Romanesque ducal castle from XI c. Later it was renovated in Aragonese in XVI c. Near the town there is also an ancient Greek archaelogical site of Thurii and Sybaris.

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Corigliano Calabro.

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Castello Ducale, Corigliano Calabro.

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Sybaris.

First 40km to Marina di Amendolara are alongside the Ionian coast on a regional road parallel to E90, before turning inland towards the Pollino massif (highest peak – Serra Dolcedorme, 2267m). The finish line is in Castrovillari on Corso Giuseppe Garibaldi, at the end of a 240m straight.

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Pollino.

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Morano Calabro.

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Castrovillari.

I've seen Castrovllari being used plenty of times, especially after hosting a stage to Alberobello in 2017. However, i've never seen a stage to Castrovillari using the Pollino massif. Maybe it's because i'm blind, or the search system on this forum sucks. Maybe Morano Calabro could also host a finish... i actually just now realised this option exists. Morano Calabro is a hilltop town roughly 8km from Castrovillari, but it lacks any space. I guess Castrovillari is a more realistic option then.

This stage is all about the last 50km. First 16,5km are uphill to Colle Ruggio – part of a bigger system including Colle dei Dragone and Colle d'Impiso near Sierra del Prete (2181m) – western part of Monte Pollino (2248m). The side i've chosen is a narrowish, but very scenic side from Rotonda. I've decided to spice things up a little by chosing a different approach to Rotonda using a narrowish murito from Fiume Mercure, which is 2,7km at 7,6% (max 16%). Other very tough part is a 7km section in the middle to Riff. Frasanelli at 9,4% with 1km at 12%. The whole climb is quite irregular, with at least two plateaus and 3 tougher sections (last one near the top).

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Profile of Colle Ruggio.

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A tough section to Rotonda.

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Pollino seen from Colle Rugio.

From the top the next 2km to Colle dei Dragone are on a plateau. The descent from Dragone is realtively wide, but the surface is not in the best of conditions. This descent is very long and it's broken into 2 parts. The first one lasts 12km and leads to Campotenese. The 2nd one leads to the finish line and is 16km long. Overall, it's 35km. None of the sections are very steep (max 8%), but they can be tricky. The 1st section has 8 serpentines while the 2nd one has 5 serpentines, a large (protected) drop on it's side and a passage through Morano Calabro. While there are some technical bits, i assume it's mainly a power descent.

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Descent from Colle Ruggio.

I assume there'll be some skirmish and testing pushes from the GC group on Colle Ruggio, but i don't expect anyone winning the race, as everything should come back on the descent. However, if you're out of form, you can lose big time. The next stage is much easier even if on paper it looks tougher than it really is.
railxmig
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13 Sep 2017 20:47

Awesome to see Colle del Dragone. I'm also designing a Giro and completed 16 stages of it. And my stage 20 will have around 100 km of sterrato. :eek:
I like your stage 4 a lot as well.
Forever The Best
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Re:

13 Sep 2017 22:09

Forever The Best wrote:Awesome to see Colle del Dragone. I'm also designing a Giro and completed 16 stages of it. And my stage 20 will have around 100 km of sterrato. :eek:
I like your stage 4 a lot as well.

I don't really know how many people used Dragone at all or the Rugio side of Dragone as the search system on this forum doesn't work for me. Maybe i'm typing wrong tags. Next stage should be tomorrow, as now i'm going lulu.

I think i've just stumbled upon your sterrato stage and i can admit, the profile is very gray. Also, the current version of this stage is really long :exclaim: . I only have 28km in two stages. I hope i did not spoil too much.

Previous stage: link

Giro d'Italia – stage 6. Castrovillari – Potenza. Poggio Tre Galli, 198km, medium mountain.
https://www.la-flamme-rouge.eu/maps/viewtrack/hd/150337
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Climbs:
Valico di Campotenese – 10km, 5,2%, cat. 2, 1038m
Valico di Prestieri – 14km, 4%, cat. 3, 841m
Valico di Pecorone – 7,7km, 4,5%, cat. 2, 908m
Tuppo delle Seti (Sacro Monte di Viggiano) – 14,8km, 4,8%, cat. 2, 1307m
Valico della Sellata – 8km, 5,8%, cat. 2, 1262m
Ferretto – 4,5km, 6,2%, cat. 3, 1090m

This stage goes through Appennino Lucano in Basilicata, known mainly for Monte Sirino and Madonna di Viggiano. This stage just misses both climbs. The start is in Castrovillari and the first 15km to Campotenese goes in the opposite direction to the last stage. This time riders can admire the views.

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Valico di Campotenese.

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Monte Pollino seen from Campotenese.

Finish is in the capital of Basilicata – Potenza. Because i had issues with lack of space in the historical centre and the next stage will start in Potenza anyway i decided to finish on a 200m at 12% murito (it's roughly 1km long, but the rest is more of a false-flat) in Poggio Tre Galli (Monte Cocuzzo, 794m) district, on Viale Vincenzo Verrastro, while the historical centre can be reserved for the next stage.

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Finish in Potenza.

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Potenza, Piazza della Prefettura.

On the profile this stage looks very tough, but all of the climbs are quite shallow. They're also very regular, so i expect it being more of a breakaway stage. Maybe some teams could try to do some damage on Ferretto, which is the steepes climb of the day with small patches of 8-9%. The top of Ferretto is 12,5km from the finish line.

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Tuppo delle Seti.

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Valico della Sellata.

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Ferretto.

I decided to not include the proper Madonna di Viggiano, but an inferior side from Marsicovetere (Tuppo delle Seti) because it's way more scenic, while placing the tougher side in the middle of this stage would be a misuse.

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Views from Tuppo delle Seti into the Agri valley (Val d'Agri).

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Grumentum in Agri valley, near Viggiano.

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Santuario Madonna di Viggiano.

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Val d'Agri and Appennino Lucano.

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Abriola.

So, what i'm expecting is a good fight for the KOM points and a win in a reasonably large breakaway. Sellata and Ferretto can be ridden quite hard. I don't expect any GC changes, as the peloton should softpedal most of the stage. The last murito in Potenza could generate some 1-2s gaps amongs the favourites. Taking into account that the last two stages were hard i guess the breakaway should win by a sizeable margin (10-15mins). Next stage is the 2nd and last chance for sprinters in this week.
railxmig
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Re: Race Design Thread

15 Sep 2017 10:20

Because there's not much to next two stages, i'll decided to combine them into one entry.

Previous stage: link

Giro d'Italia – stage 7. Potenza – Lucera, 175km, hilly.
https://www.la-flamme-rouge.eu/maps/viewtrack/hd/150376
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Climbs:
Monte Carmine – 4,1km, 4,3%, cat. 4, 1166m
Monticchio – 7,3km, 4,2%, cat. 4, 838m
Serra Mezzana – 9,8km, 5%, cat. 3, 715m
Troia – 2,4km, 4,6%, sprint, 383m

Last time Potenza hosted a Giro stage in 2008 to Peschici, but this stage is more based on Lucera – Potenza from 2001. However, i decided to change the run-in to Potenza by including Monte Carmine, which should be a bit more interesting northern approach to the city than the SS658 (i guess) used in 2001. The northern side of Monte Carmine is a 14,7km long and relentless power drag at a stable 4,5%, good for even a lower cat. 2. From Potenza however it's just a cat. 4. Monte Carmine is home to a Madonna del Carmine di Avigliano sanctuary.

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Madonna del Carmine di Avigliano.

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Laghi di Montecchio with Badia San Michele.

The rest of the stage is rather straightfoward, transitioning from Appennino Lucano in Basilicata to Appennino Irpino in Puglia. The first 115km are quite hilly, culminating with Serra Mezzana – an almost 10km climb at a stable 5%. The stage visits Castello Di Lagopesole and very picturesque Laghi di Montecchio with Monte Vulture (1245m) and nearby town of Melfi – home to a major castle from XI c. and a former seat of the Counts of Puglia. A Monte Vulture lap using SS93, SP167 and SP401 should be a good place for a 40-45km long, very hilly ITT hosted by Melfi. In my eyes it looks like an interesting idea.

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Castello Di Lagopesole.

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Melfi.

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View from SP401 on the slopes of Monte Vulture, near Foggianello.

The last 60km are in the Tavoliere plains, on the foothills of Monti Dauni. The only change of rather sparse Tavoliere region is an intermediate sprint on top of a 2,4km at 4,6% climb to Troia. The last 20km are shared with my stage to Salerno from my first Giro. Because Tavoliere is very open and quite close to the Adriatic coast there is some potential for stronger winds.

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Duomo di Troia.

Last 1,2km in Lucera are uphill at 3,8% (max 7%). It ends 800m from the finish line. This finale requires good resistance from sprinters. I also guess that some Kwiatkowski type of a guy coult try for a longer finish using the uphill section to his advantage. The finish line is on Via Appulo Sannitica at the end of a 350m straight. I think someone like Zbigniew Spruch would be very happy to see such a finish.

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Lucera.

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Fortezza Svevo-Angioina di Lucera.

In my first attemt at Giro i just barely missed on Molise. Because of that, this time the region takes the first weekend.

Giro d'Italia – stage 8. CRI di Molise. Termoli – Larino. Centro Storico, 35km, hilly ITT.
https://www.la-flamme-rouge.eu/maps/viewtrack/hd/150530
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Climbs:
Colle Sant'Adamo – 2km, 6,3%, (cat. 4), 295m
Monte Arcano – 5,3km, 6%, (cat. 3), 373m

I'm still not entirely sure, if a better place for the first ITT should be stage 7 around Melfi, even if it would mean relatively large transfers, and then have stage 8 around Molise. I hope this decision won't screw stage 9.

The main chunk of this time trial takes place in Monti Frentani between the Adriatic coast and Appennino Napoletano (Matese). This time trial is quite hilly, with two major ascents of Colle Sant'Adamo and Monte Arcano. It's also quite technical, the course can be quite twisty in some places, especially the descent from Guglionesi can be tricky.

Stage starts in Termoli on Piazza Sant'Antonio, in front of Galleria d'Arte Contemporanea, and then passes by Castello Svevo from XIII c. and Spiaggia di Sant'Antonio before leaving the city. Molise has a relatively short Adriatic coast and Termoli is by far the biggest city on the Molise coast. It's also the 2nd biggest city in the region after the capital – Campobasso. From Termoli it's also easy to access very scenic Isole Trèmiti.

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Spiaggia di Sant'Antonio and the city walls with Castello Svevo, Termoli.

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Castello Svevo, Termoli.

The stage soon leads to the ancient Frentani centre and a hilltop town of Guglionesi, home to a XII c. Collegiata di Santa Maria Maggiore via scenic, hilltop SS483. Molise is characterised by roads going on top of relatively bald and gentle peaks. From Guglionesi the route descends down to the Biferno valley and after roughly 3km of flat the final ascent to Larino (Monte Arcano – home to a... jail... okay!? I really have great luck) starts. The finish line is in the historical part of Larino, after a short descent from Monte Arcano.

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Termoli seen from SS483 near San Giacomo degli Schiavoni.

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Guglionesi.

Larino is an ancient Frentani, and later Roman settlement. From this period are the remains of a Roman amphitheatre. The medieval center has an interesting shape resembling of a bird. Here you can find Cattedrale di Santa Maria Assunta e San Pardo and Palazzo Ducale from XIV c.

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Anfiteatro Romano, Larino.

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Larino.

Next stage is an old idea of mine. I hope it'll be an interesting one.
railxmig
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Re: Re:

15 Sep 2017 19:36

railxmig wrote:
Forever The Best wrote:Awesome to see Colle del Dragone. I'm also designing a Giro and completed 16 stages of it. And my stage 20 will have around 100 km of sterrato. :eek:
I like your stage 4 a lot as well.

I don't really know how many people used Dragone at all or the Rugio side of Dragone as the search system on this forum doesn't work for me. Maybe i'm typing wrong tags. Next stage should be tomorrow, as now i'm going lulu.

I think i've just stumbled upon your sterrato stage and i can admit, the profile is very gray. Also, the current version of this stage is really long :exclaim: . I only have 28km in two stages. I hope i did not spoil too much.

I used Dragone in 1-2 stages I made but didn't include it/them in the Giro.
Also the reason to make the sterrato stage so brutal is to make it a stage for ages. And given that it doesn't suit pure climbers, they need to go crazy on stage 19 to be safe. (probably a stage around Catria-Nerone-Petrano)

PS: I have a problem with my eye (a little illness, doctor said I shouldn't use computer too much) so no stages for a week or so, and I was very close to finishing my Vuelta. :o :(
Forever The Best
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Re: Race Design Thread

16 Sep 2017 08:02

This is my only finish in Abruzzo this time. Most of the stage is still in Molise however.

Previous stage: link

Giro d'Italia – stage 9. Campobasso – Pescina. Lago di Fucino, 199km, medium mountain.
https://www.la-flamme-rouge.eu/maps/viewtrack/hd/150493
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Climbs:
Colle Gioiese – 8,1km, 4,4%, cat. 4, 731m
Agnone – 8,6km, 5,7% (max 12%), cat. 3, 894m
Guado Licia – 4,6km, 5,2%, cat. 4, 1098m
Pietransieri – 10km, 6%, cat. 2, 1337m
Monte Urano – 5km, 8,8% (max 14%), cat. 2, 841m
Olmo di Bobbi – 8,2km, 6,8% (max 12%), cat. 2, 1235m

Since my first attempt at Giro in 2016 i always wanted to test this combo, preferably on a last stage of the 1st week. I'm not sure how good in reality such combo could be, but in theory it looks okay.

The stage starts in Campobasso – capital of Molise mainly known for Castello Monforte from XV c. and a long living tradition of blade and cutlery crafting, pears and a type of cheese called scamorza. The city is also home to two Romanesque churches Chiesa di San Bartolomeo from XII c. and Chiesa di San Leonardo from XIV c.

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Campobasso.

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Castello Monforte, Campobasso.

From Campobasso the stage meanders in the hilly Molise visiting such places like stunning Bagnoli del Trigno or the medieval, hilltop Agnone before entering Abruzzo in Ateleta, 94km from the start. These kms are very hilly with 4 categorised climbs and plenty of other smaller bumps. The roads also can be technicall at times.

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Bagnoli del Trigno with Castello San Felice.

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Bagnoli del Trigno.

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Agnone.

From Ateleta the stage goes through a rather well discovered path consisting of Pietransieri, Roccaraso, Rivisondoli (optional) and Pescocostanzo, but rather than finishing there (like in 2008) i'm continuing to Sulmona through the Majella massif via Passo di Sant'Antonio. From Sulmona Passo di Sant'Antonio is 17km at a regular 5% (a solid cat. 2). The top is roughly 9km from Pescocostanzo, mainly on a plateau.


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Pietransieri.

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Majella National Park.

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Piazza Garibaldi and Acquedotto Medievale, Sulmona.

In Sulmona i'm entering very known to me roads, as i've used them in my last Giro stage to Lanciano. Back then i've skipped Monte Urano. I think it's a good time to introduce it. From Raiano, near Sulmona it's a short, but punchy climb with last 2,5km at roughly 11% and max 14%. It's also home to some great views of Sulmona and Majella. This climb was used only once in Giro, in 2005 won by my personal favourite – "Trollo" Rujano.

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Monte Urano.

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Views from the top of Monte Urano.

The descento to Goriano Sicoli is short, wide and mostly straight. Just after the village, 3km from the top of Monte Urano starts the climb to Olmo di Bobbi. It's the same ascent as the one used in my last Giro, but slightly lengthened as i'm using a 230m straight, but unlit tunnel at the top, rather than descend down to Cocullo. This climb is 8,2km at 6,8% (max 12%). The road is wide, but i've seen ones in better condition.

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Olmo di Bobbi.

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Olmo di Bobbi and Monte Urano.

The descent to the finish line is 13km long at roughly 6%. It's very picturesque with views into the Fucino plains, but it's not the most testing road in the world. However, most of it has a quite large backdrop, protected by a relatively low metal barreer, so it's still not the easiest one in the world.

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The descent from Olmo di Bobbi.

The finish line is in Pescina, a small town of 4500 pop. at the edge of the Fucino plains – former lake. I assume for the rest day transfer riders will stay in Avezzano and Celano.

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Altopiano del Fucino.

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Pescina.

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Torre Piccolomini, Pescina.

What to expect from this stage? The best scenario would be something similar to the mentioned before 2008 Pescocostanzo stage with a major selection on Monte Urano and attacks on Olmo di Bobbi, but i'm affraid the mainly power descent will kill any attempts to gain time on the favourites. I guess the outcome could be similar to other stages of this Giro from this week – a selected 5-10-man group 30-60s ahead of a similar 2nd group.
railxmig
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16 Sep 2017 09:32

Pescocostanzo 2008 <3 - great medium mountain stage with such tradition and great motivation for action.
Monte Urano <3
User avatar Libertine Seguros
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Re: Race Design Thread

16 Sep 2017 10:58

Cape Town and West Cape International Cycle Stage Race Stage 5: V&A Waterfront - Mouille Point (100.5km: 5.5km + 16 laps of 5.9km)
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Climbs:
None

Sprints:
Greenpoint Lighthouse @ laps 8,9,11,12 (47.1km, 53km, 64.9km, 70.8km)

Feed zone:
Finish line (Open on between start of lap 3 and start of lap 15) (Pits open every lap)

The final stage is finally upon us. Although this may look like a parade stage, the aim is to make it very active, with racing fully broadcast, start to finish. It is on the route or profile, but the riders will immediately start racing, with no neutralised section, from the V&A Waterfront. This 5.5km section curves round the marina before hooking up with the course, opposite the The Cape Wheel. From here the riders follow the route round to the finish line and pits to start the 16 laps of 5.9km each. Although there are pits, the riders will also have one team car and the the neutral service team following the riders at all times. The finish line is at Mouille Point. Then the riders follow the coast around until they reach the V&A Waterfront again. Then its back out and past the Metropolitan Golf Club and then along side the road past the Cape Town Stadium. This was the backdrop for the ITU World Triathlon Series when it was held here and is now part of the ITU World Cup. The event itself finished in the much smaller Green Point Stadium next door. Then the riders ride along a road parallel to the finish straight, before heading back onto the finish road. Along this is the intermediate sprint line at the Green Point Lighthouse. Here the riders sprint for bonus seconds of 10 down to 1 for the top 10 on Laps 8,9,11 and 12. This will hopefully keep the action alive on the final day, as teams wanting the leaders jersey will want to chase down anyone that will take bonus away from their riders and the leaders team won't want dangerous riders getting up the road.
This could lead to a very aggressive stage with riders pinging off the front all race probably. The big sum of bonus seconds could also bring sprinters and the less climbing able classics riders back into the mix, especially if a climber decides to race here as an early season race.

V&A Waterfront:
Image

Mouille Point:
Image
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16 Sep 2017 12:10

for giro d'italia hope for more LONG mountain stage , we need them for making TIme trial less valuable , please , CLIMBS are history
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Re:

17 Sep 2017 15:42

Libertine Seguros wrote:Pescocostanzo 2008 <3 - great medium mountain stage with such tradition and great motivation for action.
Monte Urano <3

I'm probably the only guy on this forum, which thinks Pescocostanzo 2008 was a fluke. It was probably the most retarded Giro since 2000 excluding RoboBasso 2006 & 2010. Di Luca and Ricco were both very brash and including strong clinical backing they both went bonkers in 2008 (Ricco on Aspin in TdF is more ridiculous than anything Pantani ever did, barring Giro '99 and treating Madonna di Campiglio like a descent). I personally think the best stage was to Monte Pora, but Pesco was also alright, even if it was absolutely ridiculous. I've rewatched the stage and it seems little Piepoli, who was taking turns with Di Luca, not only resisted, but even increased the adv, while the likes of Menchov, Bruseghin (good time trialists) and (i think) Simoni's boys were pulling hard behind on a flat. Even commentators were sure, this will come back. I don't think this would happen today, as for now there doesn't seem to be any Di Luca/Ricco replacement (Landa? But he's irregular).

Pietransieri is 9km at roughly 6,5% i.e. nothing special. It even seems to be quite regular with mostly 6-7% slopes. If i was designing a 2018 stage around Roccarasso, not including Aremogna (which probably excludes the town finish), then either i would do Pietransieri, but with a descent finish in Castel di Sangro, or a finish in the town after Rionero Sannitico. I don't really expect the 2008 design to work once again, but that's only my own opinion.

Ok, now to this day's Giro stage. Don't forget, it's after a rest day.

Why would i need an Amiata MTF if i can just randomly place it mid-stage and the rest fill Strade Bianche style? It seems i'm a sucker for such stages as my Tour and Vuelta also have one of these. The stage below is an absolute Frankenstein-esque monstrocity. At least it should be visually interesting...

Previous stage: link

Giro d'Italia – stage 10. Porto Santo Stefano – Chianciano Terme, 194km, medium mountain, sterrato.
https://www.la-flamme-rouge.eu/maps/viewtrack/hd/134444
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Climbs:
Poggio Montone – 4,5km, 5,5%, cat. 3, 805m
Monte Amiata – 14,1km, 7,4% (max 16%), cat. 1, 1591m
Poggio dell'Ermicciolo – 2,9km, 8,2% (max 14%), cat. 3, 1115m
Poggio Piano – 5,3km, 6,1% (max 15%), cat. 3, 675m
Chianciano Terme – 7,2km, 2,7%, cat. 4, 466m

Sprints:
Manciano – 8km, 3,8%, 400m
Pienza – 3,8km, 5,1%, 488m

Sterrato:
Santa Fiora – 1,2km (partly hormigón)
Pienza – 5km
Monticchiello – 6km
San Savino – 7,8km

I'm okay with puting TTs after a rest day, but i'm more a fan of tricky stages myself. Because of lack of good sprint placement in the stage i decided to use some smaller climbs as sprints.

The stage starts in Porto Santo Stefano in very picturesque Monte Argentario peninsula – a former island merged with the mainland by two "tomboli" – stretches of sand and also a bridge from Orbetello. In the past the peninsula was the Caravaggio's resting place and Dutch royal family's summer residence. The two main towns on the peninsula are smaller Porto Ercole and bigger Porto Santo Stefano.

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Satelite image of Monte Argentario.

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Forte Stella.

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Porto Santo Stefano.

From Monte Argentario the stage goes inland via the north tombolo and then Albinia, Manciano (1st sprint), Pitigliano – a lesser known Tuscany gem and an ancient Etruscan town on top of a rock, and Sorano – another lesser known, rock-top gem before reaching the first climb of the day – Poggio Montone. I really recommend Pitigliano and Sorano, as they're beautiful.

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Pitigliano.

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Sorano.

Just 10km from Poggio Montone starts the well known Monte Amiata. This time it's not an MTF; the top is 82km from the finish line. However, this climb with a long descent interrupted by short, but steep Poggio dell'Ermicciolo separates the first, medium mountain part of the stage from the Strade Bianche part.

I'm not sure if it's the hardest side of Amiata, or is the Castel del Piano side slightly harder. The climb to Amiata is complicated. First 1,2km to Santa Fiora are on a sterrato/hormigón murito. Hormigón is a rare occurence in Italy. This murito is at roughly 14%. Next 5km to Bagnolo are easier but the next 4,6km on Via della Vietta are at roughly 9% (includes a 2km at 10% and max around 16%). The last 3,5km are slightly easier. Overall, it's 14,1km at 7,4%, which is a borderline TdF HC.

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Monte Amiata.

The descent from Amiata ends near Castiglione d'Orcia, 36km from the top. The last 45km to the finish are closer to Strade Bianche with short, but steep muritos and almost 20km of sterrato. The hardest climb of this part – Poggio Piano, has a short, 1,2km at 10,2% section to Monticchiello.

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Poggio Piano.

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Pienza.

Last time i've did a Giro sterrato stage it was a relatively normal venture. This time i decided to shake it up a bit by focusing more on dirt descents. Hence, both Monticchiello and San Savino sectors have more downhill than uphill with even some occasional serpentines thrown in. It means the stage should be mainly for good bike handlers and considering Monte Amiata previously, the peloton could be quite small and many tougher gregarios could be lagging behind. A guy like Nibali or Thomas should try to use this stage to his advantage. Vino would probably orgasm to this stage.

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Monticchiello sector.

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San Savino sector.

The finish line is in Chianciano Terme, just after the San Savino sector. It's an uphill finish with 7,2km at 2,7%, but it does include the last flat 2km to the Terme part of Chianciano. The toughest are the middle 2km at 5,5% to the historical centre. The last 350m long straight is at roughly 7%. The finish line is on Viale Roma, in front of Grand Hotel.

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Profile of Chianciano Terme.

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Finish in Chianciano Terme.

Chianciano Terme is an ancient spa, as even Etruscans used the Silene springs for healing reasons. It also was a popular terme in ancient Rome. In the middle ages it was an important trade centre on Via Francigena (medieval Italy-France road). The modern terme was finished in 1960's.

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Historical centre of Chianciano Terme.

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Terme part of Chianciano Terme.

What to expect from this stage? Change sterrato for nordic cobbles and it would be interesing ;). It should be a fine test for tougher guys, who can resist Monte Amiata or more versalite GC guys like Nibali or lately GT. I'm not entirely sure about the possible outcome of this stage, as i don't remember seeing anything remotely similar in real life to this stage. Hope, that the more technical, descent oriented sterrato sections will provide okay racing even in the driest weather possible.
railxmig
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17 Sep 2017 15:53

Great stage and very similar to this:
viewtopic.php?p=2124151#p2124151
:D :cool:
Forever The Best
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Re:

17 Sep 2017 16:51

Forever The Best wrote:Great stage and very similar to this:
viewtopic.php?p=2124151#p2124151
:D :cool:

I expected, there were plenty of these. Saldy, at the time you were doing your Giro v1 i was more focused on work and Vuelta. Still, i guess there are plenty of similar stages with Amiata and i need to admit... i would love to see such concept in real life, hence i decided to include it in my Giro. I also have some unfinished business with more popular climbs in the Alps, so there will be 2 stages using popular climbs. If you'll check my profile, you'll see, that i have some TdF leftovers and a couple of stages in Switzerland. Not sure, on which one i will focus.
railxmig
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Re: Re:

17 Sep 2017 16:56

railxmig wrote:
Forever The Best wrote:Great stage and very similar to this:
viewtopic.php?p=2124151#p2124151
:D :cool:

I expected, there were plenty of these. Saldy, at the time you were doing your Giro v1 i was more focused on work and Vuelta. Still, i guess there are plenty of similar stages with Amiata and i need to admit... i would love to see such concept in real life, hence i decided to include it in my Giro. I also have some unfinished business with more popular climbs in the Alps, so there will be 2 stages using popular climbs. If you'll check my profile, you'll see, that i have some TdF leftovers and a couple of stages in Switzerland. Not sure, on which one i will focus.

Ah, I wasn't criticizing, just saying that that type of stages are great. And the bolded is the reason why I included it in my Giro as well.
Forever The Best
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Re: Race Design Thread

18 Sep 2017 15:02

Previous stage: link

Giro d'Italia – stage 11. Montepulciano – San Miniato, 155km, hilly, HTF.
https://www.la-flamme-rouge.eu/maps/viewtrack/hd/151398
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Climbs:
San Pancrazio – 5,2km, 3,4%, cat. 4, 471m
Monte Centramura – 13,2km, 4%, cat. 3, 692m
San Miniato – 1,5km, 7,5% (max 14%), cat. 4, 143m

Of course i don't think Montepulciano really needs any introduction as it's the 2nd most popular murito centre after Todi.

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Montepulciano.

The whole stage loosely covers Via Francigena – the medieval main route between France and Italy. The first 65km of the stage takes place in eastern Tuscany near Arezzo, alongise the Arno valley before a transfer through Chianti (Monte Centramura, Radda in Chianti) to the final 40km in Elsa valley.

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Certaldo.

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Radda in Chianti.

The main feature of this stage is the last 1,5km at 7,5% uphill dash to San Miniato. It does feature tougher sections up to over 10% (even roughly 14%). The side i've chosen (there are plenty of them) is SP7 from San Miniato Basso. The finish line is on Piazza Dante under the city walls. I wanted a finish in San Miniato since i was doing my first Giro. Back then i decided for Viareggio, because San Miniato was just too close to San Gimignano.

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Profile of San Miniato.

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One of the hardest sections of San Miniato.

Because of the location on Via Francigena and an intersection between Florence-Pisa and Lucca-Siena it was the Tuscany's trade and administrative centre. In XIV c. the town was in the centre of Siena-Florence wars.

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San Miniato.

Next stage starts in Peschia, near Collodi (Pinocchio) and Montecatini Terme.

Giro d'Italia – stage 12. Pescia – Schia. Monte Caio, 189km, medium mountain, MTF.
https://www.la-flamme-rouge.eu/maps/viewtrack/hd/151505
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Climbs:
Passo dei Carpinelli – 6,4km, 4%, cat. 4, 842m
Passo del Cerreto – 20km, 5%, cat. 2, 1257m
Schia (Pian della Giara) – 9km, 8% (max 16-18%), cat. 1, 1266m

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Garzoni Garden, Collodi.

It's more of a fake MTF, but otherwise this Giro would have none of them. There's no lazy Pradaccio – Abetone/whatever stage because i just didn't wanted it. I also rejected Passo dei Due Santi/Zum Zeri as it was also used plenty of times. There are however many other, kinda neglected places in Appennino Tosco-Emiliano.

Last time i've used the Sassostorno side of Piane di Mocogno. If you want a harder Abetone, you can use Doganaccia 2000 near Passo della Croce Arcana, which is part of Abetone Ski. There's also a murito finish on Riff. le Polle, on the other side of Monte Cimone, which should work well with Pradaccio. I've decided to use the westernmost part of Appennino Tosco-Emiliano – Garfagnana region, where the Appennino Tosco-Emiliano National Park is located.

The main chunk of the stage takes place in the Serchio valley, before crossing Garfagnana and entering Emilia-Romagna on Passo del Cerreto (one of the many cols in the area). The last part takes on the northern slopes of Garfagnana. Finish is in Schia - a small ski station on the slopes of Monte Caio (1575m).

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Passo dei Carpinelli.

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Passo del Cerreto.

I've decided for Cerreto rather than the slightly harder Passo di Pradarena, because Cerreto has better views (it's not as forested) and because it's mid-stage, way before the MTF, so it doesn't need to be the hardest thing ever. As a leg-warmer it should do the job as well as Pradarena would and i feel Pradarena is created for bigger ideas. Cerreto is also home to nearby small ski station Cerreto Laghi.

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Garfagnana.

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Parco Nazionale dell'Appennino Tosco Emiliano.

There are plenty of ways to reach Schia. The main one is an okay climb from Groppizioso (similar to Verbier). The eastern way using Via Casavalgana from Capriglio is slightly harder. I've decided for probably the hardest, western side via Pian della Giara combined with a small murito (SP14) to Tizzano Val Parma. Overall, it's 9km at 8%, a borderline cat. 1 and a strong TdF cat. 1. Because of irregularity i've decided for cat. 1.

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Pian della Giara.

The climb is separated into 3 sections. First one if a murito to Tizzano Val Parma, which is 2,5km at 10% with sections of almost 20%. Next 2km to Musiara Inferiore are easier. The last roughly 5km are at 8,5% with another ~15% section near the top.

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Murito to Tizzano Val Parma.

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Views from the top of Pian della Giara, Po valley in the background.

The last 2,7km from the top are at first downhill (quite steep and technical) and then uphill. The last 1,5km to the ski station are on a slight uphill (up to 5%). The finish line is on Piazza Neobocchi.

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A serpentine on a descent from Pian della Giara.

I guess Pian della Giara can be more selective than it looks on paper, and the time splits be a bit bigger than usually thank to the last, technical 2,7km. I guess the main selection will take place on the first murito, while attacks on over 10% sections near the top. It's definitely a tricky stage, which should not be underestimated. Of course Schia is not as hard as many other climbs in the region, but for me it's a much more interesting find than anything around Monte Cimone.

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Schia.

Next stage is one of the last sprints across the Po valley followed by a very tough weekend in the Alps.
railxmig
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18 Sep 2017 15:11

Holy **** Villa Garzoni is a thing of beauty.
User avatar jsem94
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Re:

18 Sep 2017 15:19

jsem94 wrote:Holy **** Villa Garzoni is a thing of beauty.

I'm not entirely sure, if it wasn't one of the inspirations for Pinocchio, as Carlo Collodi spent most of his childhood in Collodi. I've allready used the village in my previous venture to Viareggio. Considering that the site is close to Lucca (stunning city), it should be a very good tourism spot.
railxmig
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Re: Race Design Thread

18 Sep 2017 21:08

Nice Giro so far, railxmig. Reminds me i've got a Giro to finish as well.
User avatar fauniera
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Re: Race Design Thread

19 Sep 2017 15:20

Previous stage: link

Giro d'Italia – stage 13. Parma - Brescia, 143km, flat.
https://www.la-flamme-rouge.eu/maps/viewtrack/hd/151544
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Climbs:
Padenghe sul Garda – 2,3km, 5,6%, cat. 4, 203m
Castello di Brescia – 600m, 7,5%, 200m

A typical, short Po valley stage. It's slightly spiced up by short, cobbled Castello di Brescia. The finish is similar to the last 2013 Giro stage. Last time i skipped Parma, so now it gets the start. The stage then goes alongside the Po river through Brescello, Boretto, Gualtieri, Guastalla and Suzzara before crossing the river near Mantova. Then straight through Montova to Peschiera del Garda on the coast of Garda and alongside it to Brescia. I guess it should be a sprint like it was in 2013 but at least it shouldn't be entirely boring with Castello di Brescia near the finish. I'm not using the half-Mortirolo Monte Maddalena as it would be a waste using it for such stage. Leave it for the classical, post-Mortirolo stage.

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Palazzo del Governatore, Parma.

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Duomo di Parma.

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Mantova.

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Castello di Brescia.

Because Po valley has plenty of historical and cultural places (Gonzaga, Este, Visconti etc.), it shouldn't be as boring as it looks on paper with plenty of visuals on offer. I allways thought about a TT/grande finale between Verona and Mantova, Shakespeare style. I think it was done in the past, but to me it's still an interesting concept.

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Palazzo Ducale, Mantova.

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Cittadella del Peschiera del Garda.

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Sirmione.

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Piazza Mazzini, Guastalla.

There could be an entire album of pictures, hence the Po valley is a very popular grande finale spot. Next stage is much more serious though.

Giro d'Italia – stage 14. Bergamo – Bellano. Alpe Giumello, 180km, mountain, MTF.
https://www.la-flamme-rouge.eu/maps/viewtrack/hd/130379
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Climbs:
Selvino – 11,3km, 5,4%, cat. 2, 922m
Passo San Marco – 18km, 7,9%, cat. 1, 1986m
Passo di Agueglio – 16km, 6%, cat. 1, 1165m
Alpe Giumello – 14km, 8%, cat. 1, 1550m

I'm really worried i've ruined this stage because of the stage following it. Maybe a better combination could be the next stage followed by this one, but i'm not sure if i'm not overrating the next stage.

The biggest ski station in Grignone (part of the Bergamo Alps north of Lecco) is Pian dei Resinelli, which was used in 2012. There are however other places you could finish in, like Alpe Giumello which is much harder (similar to the 2014 Riff. Panarotta).

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Last 50km of Alpe Giumello.

The stage starts in Bergamo and soon follows with two serious climbs to Selvino and Passo San Marco. Many times i've seen some weird finishes on the other side of Valtellina. The only time it was for me really interesting, when mikii4567 finished in Pescegallo ***http://forum.cyclingnews.com/viewtopic.php?p=2086426#p2086426***. I've wondered, why the other side of San Marco (which is similar to the south side) doesn't have that much love. The likes of Foppolo or maybe even San Simone are waiting for use.

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Selvino.

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Passo San Marco.

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San Pellegrino Terme.

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A possible stage to Foppolo with Passo San Marco.

After the descent to Morbegno there are roughly 35km of flat in Valtellina and the Como coast. Just north of Varenna starts the next climb of the day – Passo di Agueglio. It's 16km at 6% with some easier and tougher sections (max 14%). At the top there are roughly 2km of false-flat including a tiny 10% murito. The first 6km are very twisty with 17 serpentines and occasionally very scenic with views of Lago di Como.

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Passo di Agueglio.

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Lago di Como from the ascent to Passo di Agueglio.

Passo di Agueglio works well with not only Alpe Giumello, but also smaller Alpe di Paglio, which has last 5km at 10%. I don't know, if in real life Alpe Giumello could hold a Giro finish. There's some space at the top, but it's not that much. As a climb it's quite good with 14km at 8% and last 6km at 9,3% (max 13%). A 2km section 4km from the finish is the toughest with over 10% and it should be the best place for an attack.

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Alep Giumello, starts from SP62/SP67 sign.

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Finish in Alpe Giumello.

I find the Agueglio-Giumello combo quite ok for a less explored MTF option. I'm worried however if the placement in the race won't just kill it. Next two stages will use much more known climbs. The first one is a twist on a well explored idea, while the 2nd one is just me liking and paying tribute to a well explored idea.
railxmig
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19 Sep 2017 16:55

I have ridden Agueglio pretty much everyday for 10 days while I was at Lago di Como, its a fantastic long, beginners climb (I pretty much lived on Agueglio). The descent from that side down to Bellano is preeetty sketchy, but whatever, it probably works. I don't wanna descend that first part (from the top) in race-mode tho. ;) There's a stretch of 3-4 km near the top with around 8-9% in average with a few pretty hard stretches, otherwise its not a demanding climb really. I absolutely loved the first 7 km at 7%. Its also called the scenic route and when you climb it, you'll see why. There's a false flat for 3 km after the climb pretty much is done tho, I don't know why that doesn't really show. The cyclingcols profile is much much better.

Giumello is a proper hard cat 1 climb in the Giro. I think there are 3 different starts, you can also choose the start of the Paglio (I did that as well, not just not to the top). However, much of Giumello is somewhat easy (I did the climb from the side that your race profile suggests) and reminds one of Agueglio, so aint something significant is gonna happen there. Has the same start and middle part, pretty much, as Agueglio. But the last 6 km at 9% are really demanding, small and twisty roads. Took me 1 hours and 30 minutes to ascend that climb so its long, there are indicators for each km when you get into that demanding part of the climb. And I definitely think there is enough space on top of Giumello for the Giro.
"This is the Tour that will determine If I can drink espresso at the Garda lake the rest of my life"
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