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Tejay Van Garderen Discussion Thread

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19 May 2017 14:43

Is there a tl;dr somewhere?
Goodbye, Tommeke; thank you for all you have given us!
User avatar Netserk
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Re:

19 May 2017 14:54

Netserk wrote:Is there a tl;dr somewhere?


Looking at his last 3 years in GT's, it's been horrible to witness.

That will mentally impact anyone.

He's in some form of denial. So are the team. Yes, they're loyal. Loyal but very dumb.

Meanwhile GvA is winning a lot of races, many he shouldn't.

Tejay in 2012 had more promise than him.

This all started when he rode his first Tour and did really well.

Someone said drop some weight...you'll compete. That he did.

Problems arise when the body gets pushed below is natural weight level. Many of these boys are already naturally thin. Many get too thin to compete. Long term competition.

Get a Dr...no, look at what's actually happening. A doctor cannot sign off on nutrition. They're not within scope of practice. A dietitian, namely a good sports one needs to address his energy issues. His body is clearly not providing enough energy via it's energy pathways (krebs cycle) to fuel his body. Heck, there is a forum member here named after his problem!

This needs to be solved in the off season. Fixing it mid season won't work. Gosh I hope they don't take him to the Tour. It should have been fixed last year! Tejay and BMC said beginning of 2016 it was! So, in essence, they either deceived themselves or have been lying. I believe it's the former. Deceived.

As for the crap way BMC ride...I'll laugh at that all day long. Rarely take a turn, but love getting the spotlight. So, yes, I do think given the way the team react and have talked, that they do open themselves up for comments like lenrics.

OVER HYPED. The whole team has been. This is called reaping what they sowed. Lance should have warned Tejay...
User avatar Galic Ho
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Re:

19 May 2017 15:26

DanielSong39 wrote:His performance in 1-week stage races are actually pretty decent.


Which is why he should focus on those 100%, no shame in finding out that maybe you aren't cut out to be a GT rider.

...
Why? Because Tejay's issue was clear in 2014. It's physical. He lost far too much weight to compete as a climber, sacrificing some of his ITT power and now, when the races get to 10+ days, his body can't handle it. Oh, yes, the rivals can.


Funny, I thought losing weight as a climber was generally seen as a good thing...
Aka The Ginger One.
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Re: Re:

19 May 2017 15:42

Galic Ho wrote:
Netserk wrote:Is there a tl;dr somewhere?


Looking at his last 3 years in GT's, it's been horrible to witness.

That will mentally impact anyone.

He's in some form of denial. So are the team. Yes, they're loyal. Loyal but very dumb.

Meanwhile GvA is winning a lot of races, many he shouldn't.

Tejay in 2012 had more promise than him.

This all started when he rode his first Tour and did really well.

Someone said drop some weight...you'll compete. That he did.

Problems arise when the body gets pushed below is natural weight level. Many of these boys are already naturally thin. Many get too thin to compete. Long term competition.

Get a Dr...no, look at what's actually happening. A doctor cannot sign off on nutrition. They're not within scope of practice. A dietitian, namely a good sports one needs to address his energy issues. His body is clearly not providing enough energy via it's energy pathways (krebs cycle) to fuel his body. Heck, there is a forum member here named after his problem!

This needs to be solved in the off season. Fixing it mid season won't work. Gosh I hope they don't take him to the Tour. It should have been fixed last year! Tejay and BMC said beginning of 2016 it was! So, in essence, they either deceived themselves or have been lying. I believe it's the former. Deceived.

As for the crap way BMC ride...I'll laugh at that all day long. Rarely take a turn, but love getting the spotlight. So, yes, I do think given the way the team react and have talked, that they do open themselves up for comments like lenrics.

OVER HYPED. The whole team has been. This is called reaping what they sowed. Lance should have warned Tejay...


Have you looked at some of the other GC riders that do get results ? They are thinner than TJVG. I doubt that it's simply weight loss and that doesn't explain why he can compete in one week races and not three week races. A team like BMC who is paying TJVG a good salary would have looked into nutrition, blood values, viruses, basically everything. I refuse to believe that the team is that clueless in running tests and looking for answers for one of their highest paid riders. Nutrition would be one of the basics along with training and recovery.
movingtarget
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Re: Re:

19 May 2017 15:54

movingtarget wrote:Have you looked at some of the other GC riders that do get results ? They are thinner than TJVG. I doubt that it's simply weight loss and that doesn't explain why he can compete in one week races and not three week races. A team like BMC who is paying TJVG a good salary would have looked into nutrition, blood values, viruses, basically everything. I refuse to believe that the team is that clueless in running tests and looking for answers for one of their highest paid riders. Nutrition would be one of the basics along with training and recovery.

That wouldn't surprise me one bit. Kristoff was definitely not impressed with the team during his tenure there, and they aren't exactly known for getting the best out of their riders.
User avatar Squire
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19 May 2017 16:05

GVA has ridden better than Sagan all season
Richie Porte has been climbing better than Froome
BMC other riders have won stages in many races including Dennis, Senni, Dillier, Hermans, Kung
Teuns 3rd in La Fletche
SAMU beside being almost 40 still riding very well and nearly won a stage at Pais Vasco

And its all BMC fault ??

What a load of clap trap .....TJVG issues are in relation to TJ ....
HelloDolly
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Re: Tejay Van Garderen Discussion Thread

19 May 2017 17:24

I've said it before and I'll say it again: TJVG is a Bobby Julich clone. Julich had to have his ego destroyed every year for five years straight before going to CSC and rebuilding himself as the best week long racer in the world in 2004-05 at 32 years old. Julich was more talented, but TeeJay has more than enough.
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Re:

19 May 2017 17:28

HelloDolly wrote:GVA has ridden better than Sagan all season
Richie Porte has been climbing better than Froome
BMC other riders have won stages in many races including Dennis, Senni, Dillier, Hermans, Kung
Teuns 3rd in La Fletche
SAMU beside being almost 40 still riding very well and nearly won a stage at Pais Vasco

And its all BMC fault ??

What a load of clap trap .....TJVG issues are in relation to TJ ....


I think the signing of Porte screwed him up. He was coming off of 2014 and riding high in the 2015 tour when he collapsed. He probably felt so close to breaking through then snapped. Instead of reinforcing their belief in a still young guy, they went out and brought in another leader. I'm not blaming the team (Porte has delivered), but it probably screwed with TeeJay's fragile psyche.
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Re: Re:

19 May 2017 18:22

Kokoso wrote:TJVG is by no means my favourite rider - again you are being "clever", but you are totalliy wrong. I just stand for anyone who is unfairly bashed by keyboard heroes like you are. You act like a je*k and "touchy touchy" and "dude" doesn't make it better.

Regarding ilness - one may suffer ilness which he doesn't even know about but can be devastating for his performance.

To delete social media is sign of mental weakness? It is not. Quite on the contrary it can be sign of mental health or mental maturity. Especially with people like you commenting.

Communication via internet makes this with people I guess...be it live encounter, I guess you would behave and talk differently. But for now, behind keyboard, you are da man, tough guy, aren't you.


I read "bla bla bla you're a jerk bla bla bla you're this and that". Yet, you're the one making personal attacks. Funny thing, right? :lol:
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Re: Re:

19 May 2017 18:23

perico wrote:
HelloDolly wrote:GVA has ridden better than Sagan all season
Richie Porte has been climbing better than Froome
BMC other riders have won stages in many races including Dennis, Senni, Dillier, Hermans, Kung
Teuns 3rd in La Fletche
SAMU beside being almost 40 still riding very well and nearly won a stage at Pais Vasco

And its all BMC fault ??

What a load of clap trap .....TJVG issues are in relation to TJ ....


I think the signing of Porte screwed him up. He was coming off of 2014 and riding high in the 2015 tour when he collapsed. He probably felt so close to breaking through then snapped. Instead of reinforcing their belief in a still young guy, they went out and brought in another leader. I'm not blaming the team (Porte has delivered), but it probably screwed with TeeJay's fragile psyche.



I think that's very possible.
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Re:

19 May 2017 18:23

Galic Ho wrote:lenric...

You must be such a funny guy.

Who here remembers the mental fortitude of that stellar of German physical prowess, Jan Ullrich?

Why have a photo for your avatar of a rider who certainly had questionable mental flops during his GT career, and pick on another rider for the same issues?

It's because you don't have a clue what you're talking about.

Back in 2014 when Tejay had his first event, aka, he bonks after the second rest day of the Tour, I noted it could occur in 2015.

2015 rolls around and this time, Tejay cannot even turn his crank. He was dropped on the Queen stage on the FIRST hill, by the groupetto.

Then came a litany of excuses. Personally many were quite funny to hear and then witness Tejay eat his words. So yes, I agree he boasts way too much.

However I did remark in 2015 BMC have a responsibility to protect the mental health of all their riders. Nobody addressed Tejay's clear issue. 2016 rolls around, Tejay and Porte rode how many races pre Tour? Zip from memory. That is tactically stupid.

Second stage of the Tour, ALL the BMC squad minus Tejay, Porte and van Avermaet had been dropped. Some fool decided they'd do a turn on the front. I said out loud "I hope one of them gets a puncture." 500m later Porte has a puncture. Porte eventually loses second place in the Tour because of that.

The entire time though, being someone who was overtly critical of Porte, was clearly saying, that BMC needed to make him leader. Tejay and BMC promised us they'd solved Tejay's issues. Tejay bonked AGAIN on the second rests days following stage. Blew 20 mins, then even more the next day. Suddenly he is an hour behind.

Here is the CRAZY piece of this puzzle! I said BMC needed ONE leader in 2015. Even more so in 2016 and it needed to be Porte. Tejay was so tired he couldn't help. A whole rider, brought along to just collapse and do what?

That's right, mentally disintegrate. I called it.

Why? Because Tejay's issue was clear in 2014. It's physical. He lost far too much weight to compete as a climber, sacrificing some of his ITT power and now, when the races get to 10+ days, his body can't handle it. Oh, yes, the rivals can.

Tejay ain't them. The solution I gave last year was simple, to protect him mentally the team needed to remove him as a GC leader, put some weight on him, have him be a domestique for a season and reshape him as a 1 week, classics, chrono/ITT rider.

BMC didn't listen. SSDD is what Lance use to say. Heck lenric, Lance beat Ullrich non stop. Tejay rides with Lance in his spare time!!

It's simple, hire a good sports dietitian, figure out a healthier heavier weight for Tejay and ride for the whole season at that weight. Tejay is mentally cracking BECAUSE his body actually does shut down after a week of racing. It's not present during a stage race because he does not have accumulated fatigue. His bodies natural glucose and fat stores are not good enough...they depleted and he bonks.

Jan Ullrich never had that issue because he had body fat galore for a cyclist. His fault was actually mental. But, you knew this right lenric?

Again...leave the forum for a year and those who can't spot the obvious are running amok.

It's physical...when your body doesn't behave as your MEMORY remembers, the result that FLOWS from this is mentally draining. Tonton is right, that sucks BIG time. Tejay gets compassion for me, because this was all bloody obvious 3 years ago. Heck, I even predicted they'd ignore it.

However look at this year. They announced without any reasoning to justify Tejay not having to rethink things, that he is a GC rider at season beginning! After last years Tour, he went to the Vuelta, claimed he would go for stage wins. Couldn't even finish that GT. Tejay either bombs out or doesn't finish the GT's he races now. That's an energy problem...what on earth are all of you watching who didn't recognize this? It's physically what his body refuses to do. The solution is to put on more weight, not bonk BUT change his perspective and approach to riding.

BMC however are morons of the finest order. Cheating Movistar at (correct me if the race was another) Pais Vasco in the chrono I saw as a clear tactic of cowardice KNOWING Tejay needed all the freebies he could get. Valverde still flogged him!

I also said, Tejay should have put some weight on, switched his objectives, been a helper for GvA and Porte and AIMED to win as many Tour of California's and Utah's as he can get. Because that's still a good result. BMC are beyond delusional...they're responsible for his mental state right now. He should switch teams if he can.

Oh right...no social media. He won't get this. BMC, if you're reading this or ride for the team, if I could spot it in 2015, what on earth is your excuse? He rides with Lance so he should 'be alright to go?' That's literally the only thing I can consider. Tell him once again, to pack some muscle and body fat on, focus on his ITT again and then go for stage race wins....it's not rocket science.

Yes he can get his form back. Yes it's physical. Yes it's reversible. Put some weight on...reverse the extravagant weight loss, power goes up, body has more fat, has more fuel in longer races to fall back on, he can last longer and actually pedal.

Sheesh....I'll be back in a year. Hopefully he's still riding.


I have only read this was directed towards me. Unfortunately, it's a mile long post, so sorry, didn't read. Resume it, this year or in the next. Or don't, your choice. ;)
Last edited by lenric on 19 May 2017 20:38, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar lenric
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Re: Re:

19 May 2017 18:28

Galic Ho wrote:
Netserk wrote:Is there a tl;dr somewhere?


Looking at his last 3 years in GT's, it's been horrible to witness.

That will mentally impact anyone.

He's in some form of denial. So are the team. Yes, they're loyal. Loyal but very dumb.

Meanwhile GvA is winning a lot of races, many he shouldn't.

Tejay in 2012 had more promise than him.

This all started when he rode his first Tour and did really well.

Someone said drop some weight...you'll compete. That he did.

Problems arise when the body gets pushed below is natural weight level. Many of these boys are already naturally thin. Many get too thin to compete. Long term competition.

Get a Dr...no, look at what's actually happening. A doctor cannot sign off on nutrition. They're not within scope of practice. A dietitian, namely a good sports one needs to address his energy issues. His body is clearly not providing enough energy via it's energy pathways (krebs cycle) to fuel his body. Heck, there is a forum member here named after his problem!

This needs to be solved in the off season. Fixing it mid season won't work. Gosh I hope they don't take him to the Tour. It should have been fixed last year! Tejay and BMC said beginning of 2016 it was! So, in essence, they either deceived themselves or have been lying. I believe it's the former. Deceived.

As for the crap way BMC ride...I'll laugh at that all day long. Rarely take a turn, but love getting the spotlight. So, yes, I do think given the way the team react and have talked, that they do open themselves up for comments like lenrics.

OVER HYPED. The whole team has been. This is called reaping what they sowed. Lance should have warned Tejay...

Well, three months is three months, it doesn't really matter when they fall on the calendar. June, July, August are the same as October, November, December, but the weather is better for training. If you are correct, I think that you could be, and he needs to adjust his body comp., and nutrition, he could start this month and have things moving in the right direction for late summer and fall racing.
jmdirt
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19 May 2017 18:32

TJVG is a guy I've always thought had ability but got overhyped. The hype can also destroy you, as we well know. The thing is, though he had pretty good puncheur skills as an espoir and early in his career (check him on Valdepeñas de Jaén in the 2010 Vuelta), since he's looked to move into GT contention, he's been mostly (not entirely, but mostly) a diesel climber, and the lower to mid-gradient climbs have been his staple foodstuff. The 2012 Tour suited him in that respect, with the course having been seemingly constructed around Wiggins, a GT contender with a strong TT and a preference for tempo grinding climbing, which suited Tejay down to the ground. If you look at his results in the high mountains, all career long Tejay has been at his best on longer, more consistent climbs. He's consistently been strong at the Volta a Catalunya, until last year the only race he'd won a mountain stage at outside of the USA, but only once has he been remotely competitive at País Vasco - and even then, that was the 2014 edition when he was 6th and he didn't finish higher than 9th in any stage. He's been a beast in the US, but the mountain climbs in Colorado and the likes are of a different character to those in Europe, often wider, lower average gradient (not always of course, but the general climbs in the USAPCC have more in common with the likes of Beret, Bonaigua and the Andorra climbs than they do with Covadonga, Angliru or Hazallanas, let's say).

Parcours trends have therefore been against him; traditional low gradient stompers that may have suited him are out of vogue in the Vuelta, which renders it ill-suited to a rider of his skills (the Rettenbachferner win in the Tour de Suisse last year was perhaps a sign that this was changing, but for the time being seems anomalous in his palmarès). The contre-le-montre, where he holds the advantage over the more delicate climbers, is finding itself shrunk in distance and so the gains to be made by somebody whose strength as a GC rider lies in that direction are being limited. The Giro has a habit of unpredictable racing and also climbs like Blockhaus are not the sort that Tejay has historically gone well at. When you look at this year's Romandie parcours, it doesn't really tell us anything about the kind of climbing necessary on a climb approaching 9%, so while van Garderen looked like he had good form coming in, it doesn't look like the steeper gradients have been kind to him.

As such, the Tour is the GT that most suits his needs as a GC rider, but also given its prominence in the calendar and with everybody looking to peak, the GT least likely to see an edition where he's the strongest rider to make it to Paris. If he'd come around in the late 90s, those early 2000s Vueltas won by the likes of Casero and Aitor González, or the edition where Heras took the lead off Nozal in the final MTT, would have been ideal for him, whereas since he's emerged as a stage racer, the Vuelta has been a completely different beast to those days, with TT mileage minimal and a dozen uphill finishes on climbs ranging from "extremely short and steep" to "short and extremely steep".

He's no bum, no failure, the guy's still a great bike rider. He's been 5th and 6th in two WT stage races. He can still fulfil a role as a GC leader at a smaller team if they could afford it, as a route to potential invites, or as a super-domestique/secondary option for big teams, who is too dangerous to allow any rope to, and a more than capable secondary helper if the main GC leader fails. He would be good fulfilling the kind of role Melchior Mauri did in the mid-90s for ONCE. Unfortunately for Tejay, he didn't get to fluke a GT win first.
User avatar Libertine Seguros
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19 May 2017 19:07

I don't know wtf was teejay doing in the giro's promo... this is really hype!!
portugal11
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19 May 2017 19:11

Being the biggest name on BMC set to ride it...
Aka The Ginger One.
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Re: Re:

19 May 2017 22:02

Squire wrote:
movingtarget wrote:Have you looked at some of the other GC riders that do get results ? They are thinner than TJVG. I doubt that it's simply weight loss and that doesn't explain why he can compete in one week races and not three week races. A team like BMC who is paying TJVG a good salary would have looked into nutrition, blood values, viruses, basically everything. I refuse to believe that the team is that clueless in running tests and looking for answers for one of their highest paid riders. Nutrition would be one of the basics along with training and recovery.

That wouldn't surprise me one bit. Kristoff was definitely not impressed with the team during his tenure there, and they aren't exactly known for getting the best out of their riders.


One riders opinion. Evans always had good things to say about how BMC ran things as does Porte and other riders. Even TJVG has said that the team have been very supportive.
movingtarget
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20 May 2017 01:07

It could as easily be an injury but not disclosed to the public. Andy Schleck and Van den Broeck come to mind. 3 years may be too long to blame on nutrition but a lot of people cannot adapt to the low weight and the power demands of GTs.
I expect him to go to Cannondale for some peace and quiet. After all, less spotlight when the entire team fails.
IndianCyclist
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Re:

20 May 2017 05:23

IndianCyclist wrote:It could as easily be an injury but not disclosed to the public. Andy Schleck and Van den Broeck come to mind. 3 years may be too long to blame on nutrition but a lot of people cannot adapt to the low weight and the power demands of GTs.
I expect him to go to Cannondale for some peace and quiet. After all, less spotlight when the entire team fails.


That's the problem for TJVG. No team will sign him unless he shows signs of improvement and no team will sign him for the money he is currently receiving. He will have to take a sizeable pay cut for a different role or as a secondary GT rider. Who would sign him as a marquee GT rider ? Cannondale already have enough issues getting results in the major races although some of their younger riders have showed good signs. Not sure why they signed Phinney, Uran or Rolland.
movingtarget
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Re: Re:

20 May 2017 11:14

movingtarget wrote:
IndianCyclist wrote:It could as easily be an injury but not disclosed to the public. Andy Schleck and Van den Broeck come to mind. 3 years may be too long to blame on nutrition but a lot of people cannot adapt to the low weight and the power demands of GTs.
I expect him to go to Cannondale for some peace and quiet. After all, less spotlight when the entire team fails.


That's the problem for TJVG. No team will sign him unless he shows signs of improvement and no team will sign him for the money he is currently receiving. He will have to take a sizeable pay cut for a different role or as a secondary GT rider. Who would sign him as a marquee GT rider ? Cannondale already have enough issues getting results in the major races although some of their younger riders have showed good signs. Not sure why they signed Phinney, Uran or Rolland.


He's going to have to take less money, but he's talented and young enough where he should have little problems finding a WT team.
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Re: Re:

20 May 2017 14:24

Moviefan1203 wrote:
movingtarget wrote:
IndianCyclist wrote:It could as easily be an injury but not disclosed to the public. Andy Schleck and Van den Broeck come to mind. 3 years may be too long to blame on nutrition but a lot of people cannot adapt to the low weight and the power demands of GTs.
I expect him to go to Cannondale for some peace and quiet. After all, less spotlight when the entire team fails.


That's the problem for TJVG. No team will sign him unless he shows signs of improvement and no team will sign him for the money he is currently receiving. He will have to take a sizeable pay cut for a different role or as a secondary GT rider. Who would sign him as a marquee GT rider ? Cannondale already have enough issues getting results in the major races although some of their younger riders have showed good signs. Not sure why they signed Phinney, Uran or Rolland.

He's going to have to take less money, but he's talented and young enough where he should have little problems finding a WT team.

I think that you are correct. He will likely have to shift his focus, but there are WT teams that will sign him. I would be willing to bet that there are plenty of PC teams that would sign him as well. I've tried to find an accurate salary list for cyclist, but I din't have any luck. Many have indicated that he isn't worth what he is making, likely without knowing what he is actually making. Plus, his value is what a team is willing to pay him. With that said, I can see a team paying him less salary, but building in performance bonuses so that if he races well, he won't make less money.
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