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Peter Sagan discussion thread.

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Is Sagan worth his money?

09 Nov 2017 10:11

Unfortunately, I can not find the original so it can buy another fake Slovak news. But according to this article, the founder and owner of Bora Will Bruckbauer consider the signing of Sagan his best signature in his life.

Bora is growing 30% faster in the markets where the cycling is popular ( Benelux, Italy, France, Spain).


"The recognition of the brand has increased after our involvement in cycling up to seven times, and Peter Sagan is also responsible." "According to Bruckbauer, it was his best signature in his life,"

https://sport24.pluska.sk/cyklo/ked-ho-podpisovali-taketo-nieco-bore-urcite-necakali-za-vsetko-moze-sagan.html
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16 Nov 2017 20:15

I still don't like the guy, but reading that Freire article on the front page makes me think - isn't Sagan well on his way to become the greatest classics rider of the modern era already? Especially if we're counting the world championship as near-monument value. I mean, he has a couple monuments to go, but an older, wiser and still as fast Sagan is honestly a scary thought. And winning the 4th world championship in Innsbruck would be just incredible.
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Re:

16 Nov 2017 20:51

spalco wrote:I still don't like the guy, but reading that Freire article on the front page makes me think - isn't Sagan well on his way to become the greatest classics rider of the modern era already? Especially if we're counting the world championship as near-monument value. I mean, he has a couple monuments to go, but an older, wiser and still as fast Sagan is honestly a scary thought. And winning the 4th world championship in Innsbruck would be just incredible.


Near-monument value? Do you really think a victory in MSR or Lombardia is more important than one at the Worlds?

He won't win the WC next year no matter what they say but yeah, he definitely is on the track to becoming not just the greatest classic rider of our time but one of the best riders in history.

Freire seems envious in that interview by the way. "I was as young as Sagan when I had won three worlds (he wasn't)" and "the riders of this era are not as good as when I was riding (they are)" are quotes that seem somewhat strange. I don't know who he is trying to fool but there is no way in hell that he could be considered as as good a rider as Sagan.
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Re:

17 Nov 2017 00:16

spalco wrote:I still don't like the guy, but reading that Freire article on the front page makes me think - isn't Sagan well on his way to become the greatest classics rider of the modern era already? Especially if we're counting the world championship as near-monument value. I mean, he has a couple monuments to go, but an older, wiser and still as fast Sagan is honestly a scary thought. And winning the 4th world championship in Innsbruck would be just incredible.


Cancellara, Boonen and Gilbert are quite far ahead of him in my opinion at the moment. (I'm not sure what you consider the modern era, but all 3 are certainly considered modern era).
I do agree, however, that by the time he retires he might very well have the greatest classics achievements. For comparison, here is him at the moment vs the above 3 in terms of (decently) big classic wins.

Peter Sagan:
3 WCRR
1 RVV
1 E3 Harlbeke
2 GW
(And 2nd 3 times in monuments)

Fabian Cancellara:
1 MSR
3 RVV
3 PR
3 Strade Bianche
3 E3 Harelbeke*
(And 2nd 5 times in monuments, 3rd 3 times in monuments, as well as 4 WC ITT's)

Tom Boonen:
1 WCRR
3 RVV
4 PR
5 E3 Harelbeke*
3 GW
(And 2nd 4 times in monuments, 3rd 2 times in monuments)

Phillipe Gilbert:
1 WCRR
1 RVV
1 LBL
2 Giro de Lombardia
4 Amstel Gold Race
1 Clasica San Sebastian
1 Fleche Wallonne
1 Strade Bianche
(And 3rd in 5 monuments)

*Not all when it was a WT race
Last edited by Ruby United on 17 Nov 2017 10:21, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is Sagan worth his money?

17 Nov 2017 01:19

SKSemtex wrote:Unfortunately, I can not find the original so it can buy another fake Slovak news. But according to this article, the founder and owner of Bora Will Bruckbauer consider the signing of Sagan his best signature in his life.

Bora is growing 30% faster in the markets where the cycling is popular ( Benelux, Italy, France, Spain).


"The recognition of the brand has increased after our involvement in cycling up to seven times, and Peter Sagan is also responsible." "According to Bruckbauer, it was his best signature in his life,"

https://sport24.pluska.sk/cyklo/ked-ho-podpisovali-taketo-nieco-bore-urcite-necakali-za-vsetko-moze-sagan.html


This is interesting.

It strikes me that Bora, as a company, got a particularly good deal when their team stepped up to the WT. They were previously paying the bulk of the cost of one of the biggest PCT teams with only a small to medium bike brand picking up the remnant of the tab. When they moved up to WT, a much bigger company came in as secondary sponsor and Specialized came in effectively as a third major sponsor, bringing Sagan.

I suspect that the leap in cycling related brand prominence came relatively cheaply. Certainly much more cheaply than upgrading all the way from PCT to one of the bigger WT teams would normally be for a main sponsor.
Last edited by Zinoviev Letter on 17 Nov 2017 17:47, edited 1 time in total.
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17 Nov 2017 01:58

This interview is very interesting: http://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/latest-news/how-peter-sagans-coach-helped-unlock-his-amazing-talent-358190

What has impressed you most while working with him?
There are a few uncommon things about Peter. The first is his capacity to understand his body and to know what he needs, whether that’s resting, or training more, or doing more strength workouts. That makes it easy, because he tells you what he needs.


Understanding his own body appears to be a key attribute of Peter's success.

This is intriguing:
How have you made Peter such a fast finisher?
I don’t think Peter is a fast guy. He can be fast, but he’s not naturally fast. He needs that skill, because at the end of the race he needs to be fast to win — but it’s not because he’s naturally fast.

We get his speed through his freshness and his strength — getting to the finish fresh and being faster than the fast guys. He wins not because he’s faster but because he’s fresher. He’s very similar in terms of characteristics to Tom Boonen: at the beginning of his career, he was able to win bunch sprints, but then he focused more on endurance. I really look to Tom’s career to try to understand where we can go with Peter.


Wooow... not naturally fast. Who would guess that? :)
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Re: Re:

17 Nov 2017 09:38

Ruby United wrote:
spalco wrote:I still don't like the guy, but reading that Freire article on the front page makes me think - isn't Sagan well on his way to become the greatest classics rider of the modern era already? Especially if we're counting the world championship as near-monument value. I mean, he has a couple monuments to go, but an older, wiser and still as fast Sagan is honestly a scary thought. And winning the 4th world championship in Innsbruck would be just incredible.


Cancellara, Boonen and Gilbert are quite far ahead of him in my opinion at the moment. (I'm not sure what you consider the modern era, but all 3 are certainly considered modern era).
I do agree, however, that by the time he retires he might very well have the greatest classics achievements. For comparison, here is him at the moment vs the above 3 in terms of (decently) big classic wins.

Peter Sagan:
3 WCRR
1 RVV
1 E3 Harlbeke
2 GW
(And 2nd 3 times in monuments)

Fabian Cancellara:
1 MSR
3 RVV
3 PR
3 Strade Bianche
3 E3 Harelbeke*
(And 2nd 5 times in monuments, 3rd 3 times in monuments, as well as 4 WC ITT's)

Tom Boonen:
1 WCRR
3 RVV
4 PR
5 E3 Harelbeke*
3 GW
(And 2nd 4 times in monuments, 3rd 2 times in monuments)

Phillipe Gilbert:
1 WCRR
1 LBL
2 Giro de Lombardia
4 Amstel Gold Race
1 Clasica San Sebastian
1 Fleche Wallonne
1 Strade Bianche
(And 3rd in 5 monuments)

*Not all when it was a WT race


And what the hell Individual Time Trial title has to do with the classics?!

I see that you have an asterisk next to E3, but what about Strade Bianche? Or do you think 2008, 2011 and 2012 editions were among the biggest classics, cause I don't. From 2014, maybe 2013, it is a very big classic indeed, but before that I don't rank it that high as races you mentioned above.

Also in Gilbert's case you didn't mentioned certain Ronde van Vlaanderen, Paris-Tours 2008 which was a WT-rank, Paris-Tours 2009 (not a WT, but very big race with a high quality field) and GP Quebec 2011 which is no lesser race then Strade Bianche same year by any means.

And also I would like to add Alejandro Valverde as a rider with better classics record than Sagan, as things stands right now. 4x Liege, 5x Fleche, 2x San Sebastian plus 6 WC medals and 5 Monument podiums I think tops Peter's achievements so far.
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Re: Re:

17 Nov 2017 10:21

Blanco wrote:
Ruby United wrote:
spalco wrote:I still don't like the guy, but reading that Freire article on the front page makes me think - isn't Sagan well on his way to become the greatest classics rider of the modern era already? Especially if we're counting the world championship as near-monument value. I mean, he has a couple monuments to go, but an older, wiser and still as fast Sagan is honestly a scary thought. And winning the 4th world championship in Innsbruck would be just incredible.


Cancellara, Boonen and Gilbert are quite far ahead of him in my opinion at the moment. (I'm not sure what you consider the modern era, but all 3 are certainly considered modern era).
I do agree, however, that by the time he retires he might very well have the greatest classics achievements. For comparison, here is him at the moment vs the above 3 in terms of (decently) big classic wins.

Peter Sagan:
3 WCRR
1 RVV
1 E3 Harlbeke
2 GW
(And 2nd 3 times in monuments)

Fabian Cancellara:
1 MSR
3 RVV
3 PR
3 Strade Bianche
3 E3 Harelbeke*
(And 2nd 5 times in monuments, 3rd 3 times in monuments, as well as 4 WC ITT's)

Tom Boonen:
1 WCRR
3 RVV
4 PR
5 E3 Harelbeke*
3 GW
(And 2nd 4 times in monuments, 3rd 2 times in monuments)

Phillipe Gilbert:
1 WCRR
1 LBL
2 Giro de Lombardia
4 Amstel Gold Race
1 Clasica San Sebastian
1 Fleche Wallonne
1 Strade Bianche
(And 3rd in 5 monuments)

*Not all when it was a WT race


And what the hell Individual Time Trial title has to do with the classics?!

I see that you have an asterisk next to E3, but what about Strade Bianche? Or do you think 2008, 2011 and 2012 editions were among the biggest classics, cause I don't. From 2014, maybe 2013, it is a very big classic indeed, but before that I don't rank it that high as races you mentioned above.

Also in Gilbert's case you didn't mentioned certain Ronde van Vlaanderen, Paris-Tours 2008 which was a WT-rank, Paris-Tours 2009 (not a WT, but very big race with a high quality field) and GP Quebec 2011 which is no lesser race then Strade Bianche same year by any means.

And also I would like to add Alejandro Valverde as a rider with better classics record than Sagan, as things stands right now. 4x Liege, 5x Fleche, 2x San Sebastian plus 6 WC medals and 5 Monument podiums I think tops Peter's achievements so far.


Your first point about not putting an asterisk next to Strade Bianche, I accept - I should have. However, about counting it from 2013/14, that I do not agree with. Either I count it from it's inauguration, when it became WT, or not at all. I did not want to subjectively decide when to count it from.

About Gilbert, I did write RVV but I must have by mistake deleted it, so thanks for pointing out. I will edit that. Paris Tours and GP Quebec, I accept. I must point out that I wrote Gilbert's palmares from memory as I temporarily did not have access to internet, so mistakes were inevitable.

I agree with you that Valverde may just have a better record than Sagan, but I left him out because in my opinion, compared to the other 3, he is way off.
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18 Nov 2017 10:22

You are all forgetting how good Paolo Bettini was (2 WCRR, 1 OCRR, 2 Liege, 1 MSR, 2 Lombardia, San Sebastian, Hamburg, 2 Zurich). Sagan has a long way to go to catch him too.
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Re:

30 Nov 2017 00:42

italoc wrote:You are all forgetting how good Paolo Bettini was (2 WCRR, 1 OCRR, 2 Liege, 1 MSR, 2 Lombardia, San Sebastian, Hamburg, 2 Zurich). Sagan has a long way to go to catch him too.


I did not mention him as I thought that perhaps spalco defined 'modern era' as riders who raced post LA.
Bettini's last good season was 2006 and he stopped in 2008 if I remember correctly.
The other riders all raced until just a few years ago.
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05 Dec 2017 10:59

ooo
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05 Dec 2017 16:02

The moral to this story is that riders should be interviewed/state their case in this type of incident - It should be standard practice before any race jury makes an adjudication.
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05 Dec 2017 17:17

"We just realised that it was wrong to throw you out of a race several months ago. Whoops, sorry... not that anything can be done about it now."
Aka The Ginger One.
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Re: Peter Sagan discussion thread.

06 Dec 2017 20:41

Previously I was thinking, that Sagan has blocked Cavensdish, but after I have rewatched crash videos, I have changed my mind.

Here are pictures showing movement of riders until contact between Sagan and Cavendish:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/ueB6AgZ8cHvklkLS2

1 - everything OK, every rider is in his line
2 - the moment just before Demare starts his move to the left side, Sagan seems to be closely watching Demare.
3 - Many people still think, that Cavendish was on Demare's wheel and Sagan just took it. On pictures 3,4 you can see what trees hide, when watching from above. The fact that Demare was moving to the left side already in this moment changes a lot, when judging Sagan's movement. Cavendish lost Demare's wheel, because Demare left his line! Sagan reacted immediately, as he moved at the same time as Demare, to get into his slipstream. As a result Demare's and Sagan's lines united in one.
4 - Here are some bad luck factors for Cavendish: drain hole and spectators. Probably he would survive without crash, if they weren't there (despite he didn't brake, when he couldn't follow Demare's move to the left and additionally his space got even tighter as Sagan jumped into Demare's wheel).
5 - If not already earlier, here is clearly visible contact between Sagan and Cavendish. Further Sagan's action was strongly influenced by this contact as he was regaining balance and control over his bike...
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Re: Peter Sagan discussion thread.

08 Dec 2017 17:02

animir wrote:Previously I was thinking, that Sagan has blocked Cavensdish, but after I have rewatched crash videos, I have changed my mind...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXwZczGqWls
AQETUYIOI
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12 Dec 2017 19:11

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