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Chris Froome Discussion Thread.

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Re: Re:

15 May 2018 19:14

Gigs_98 wrote:
Angliru wrote:
Red Rick wrote:
Angliru wrote:
Bot. Sky_Bot wrote:He just proved that Giro-Tour double great perfomance is almost impossible. The same was with Quintana last year, but he was much more better at Giro and with no shape at TdF. For Chris Tour is much more important so we have Quintana-Tour2017 version now performed by CF-Giro2018.


How is it impossible if seven riders have already done it?

Because circumstances change.


That doesn't make it almost impossible. Of course circumstances change but the same was probably being said prior to each of the other successful attempts. The triple is virtually impossible. Giro/Tour IMO is not.

What is interesting to me is that it was posted that now that Froome is struggling, that he never intended to actually win the Giro. That he didn't prepare in a fashion that would have him in the form to be successful. That the appearance fee was too tempting to pass up, this very same appearance fee that many Froome supporters claimed is a figment of the imaginations of those that aren't fans of Froome. All of this is rather convenient to explain away what appears at this juncture of the Giro to be a failed effort.

You have conflicting statements from the Sky ds and Froome in regards to the severity of his crash injuries and you even have Froome contradicting himself in one sitting.

I have thought about this as well, but if it was the case Sky hadn't entered this giro with only Foome as their "leader" because currently it looks as if everyone is riding in support of him. If you get the money anyway, why would they purposely ruin their own giro.


I recall reading somewhere prior to the Giro start that Poels would be riding for Froome but at the same time trying to maintain a position in the gc. That appears to have been either another possible figment of my imagination or they (Sky management) changed their minds and decided to go all in for Froome.
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Re: Re:

15 May 2018 20:09

Angliru wrote:
Gigs_98 wrote:
Red Rick wrote:
Angliru wrote:
Bot. Sky_Bot wrote:He just proved that Giro-Tour double great perfomance is almost impossible. The same was with Quintana last year, but he was much more better at Giro and with no shape at TdF. For Chris Tour is much more important so we have Quintana-Tour2017 version now performed by CF-Giro2018.


How is it impossible if seven riders have already done it?

Because circumstances change.


That doesn't make it almost impossible. Of course circumstances change but the same was probably being said prior to each of the other successful attempts. The triple is virtually impossible. Giro/Tour IMO is not.

What is interesting to me is that it was posted that now that Froome is struggling, that he never intended to actually win the Giro. That he didn't prepare in a fashion that would have him in the form to be successful. That the appearance fee was too tempting to pass up, this very same appearance fee that many Froome supporters claimed is a figment of the imaginations of those that aren't fans of Froome. All of this is rather convenient to explain away what appears at this juncture of the Giro to be a failed effort.

You have conflicting statements from the Sky ds and Froome in regards to the severity of his crash injuries and you even have Froome contradicting himself in one sitting.

I have thought about this as well, but if it was the case Sky hadn't entered this giro with only Foome as their "leader" because currently it looks as if everyone is riding in support of him. If you get the money anyway, why would they purposely ruin their own giro.


I recall reading somewhere prior to the Giro start that Poels would be riding for Froome but at the same time trying to maintain a position in the gc. That appears to have been either another possible figment of my imagination or they (Sky management) changed their minds and decided to go all in for Froome.[/quote]

I don't think that was a figment of your imagination. I've read things and then not been able to find them when looking.
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15 May 2018 20:13

Well, looks like the Magic Kenyan is OK and ready to fight for pink. Like I stated before: Do not count him out just YET.
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Re:

15 May 2018 20:41

hfer07 wrote:Well, looks like the Magic Kenyan is OK and ready to fight for pink. Like I stated before: Do not count him out just YET.


How did you come to that conclusion? Listening to what he says? He is done unless top 5 all crash into each other and fall off Zoncolan.
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Re: Re:

15 May 2018 21:20

Rollthedice wrote:
hfer07 wrote:Well, looks like the Magic Kenyan is OK and ready to fight for pink. Like I stated before: Do not count him out just YET.


How did you come to that conclusion? Listening to what he says? He is done unless top 5 all crash into each other and fall off Zoncolan.

Even in bad form you'd expect him to take 60-90s out of everyone bar Dumoulin.
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15 May 2018 21:34

Chris Froome in bad form isn't a great TT'er.
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Double

15 May 2018 23:14

I have doubts about Froone doing the Giro this year if not for the court case. A chance of a fifth Tour against appearance money and an improbable double ? I think he may have switched to the Giro because there were doubts about him competing at the Tour. I doubt it was just about the money. Of all of the years to pick the Giro he does it when he is possibly winning a record equaling Tour ? Sounds unlikely to me. Nothing about Froome's career since joining Sky and the way he has approached Tour has been less than calculating. It was a very odd time to ride the Giro. Froome doesn't need the money, I am sure he would have preferred another Tour win. He always mentioned the Vuelta as one of his favorite races and was very happy to do the double but he always talked about the Giro as an afterthought. Something to attempt later in his career. Yes the triple is another impossibility. Not done since Stephen Roche in 1987.
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Re:

16 May 2018 06:05

Red Rick wrote:It wasn't impossible for Contador, but it was in 2015. He could've done it if he had tried it in 2009, or he could've pulled it off in 2011 with better luck.

Contador was pretty much unequaled uphill in his best years, whereas Froome had his equal uphill in the 3rd week of a GT, and Nibali, Quintana and Contador were all really strong in most of these years.

Valverde's shenanigans in 2016 show the requirements for the double more than a single dominant GT. You need to be the kind of rider that can be good easily for long periods of time. Especially for Giro/Tour, where you enter the double with very little racing compared to Tour/Vuelta, which is a thing that's pretty underrated imo.

If Froome could have ever done it is something we'll probably never know. Tour/Vuelta doubles are too different to compare.

why do you always make such a big emphasis on froome being relatively weak in week 3 of the tour and omit what a remarkable recovery he obviously demonstrated in 2016 and 2017 vuelta? ;)
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Re: Re:

16 May 2018 08:37

dacooley wrote:
Red Rick wrote:It wasn't impossible for Contador, but it was in 2015. He could've done it if he had tried it in 2009, or he could've pulled it off in 2011 with better luck.

Contador was pretty much unequaled uphill in his best years, whereas Froome had his equal uphill in the 3rd week of a GT, and Nibali, Quintana and Contador were all really strong in most of these years.

Valverde's shenanigans in 2016 show the requirements for the double more than a single dominant GT. You need to be the kind of rider that can be good easily for long periods of time. Especially for Giro/Tour, where you enter the double with very little racing compared to Tour/Vuelta, which is a thing that's pretty underrated imo.

If Froome could have ever done it is something we'll probably never know. Tour/Vuelta doubles are too different to compare.

why do you always make such a big emphasis on froome being relatively weak in week 3 of the tour and omit what a remarkable recovery he obviously demonstrated in 2016 and 2017 vuelta? ;)

It's not like he was dropping everyone in those 3rd weeks, so my points holds true. And the Vuelta applies less here, cause nobody really is fresh at the end of the Vuelta, whereas you don't have that luxury in the 3rd week of the Tour if you've done the Giro already.

I think he approached 2016 and 2016 more conservatively anyway, to be more consistent.
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Re: Re:

16 May 2018 10:46

Red Rick wrote:
dacooley wrote:
Red Rick wrote:It wasn't impossible for Contador, but it was in 2015. He could've done it if he had tried it in 2009, or he could've pulled it off in 2011 with better luck.

Contador was pretty much unequaled uphill in his best years, whereas Froome had his equal uphill in the 3rd week of a GT, and Nibali, Quintana and Contador were all really strong in most of these years.

Valverde's shenanigans in 2016 show the requirements for the double more than a single dominant GT. You need to be the kind of rider that can be good easily for long periods of time. Especially for Giro/Tour, where you enter the double with very little racing compared to Tour/Vuelta, which is a thing that's pretty underrated imo.

If Froome could have ever done it is something we'll probably never know. Tour/Vuelta doubles are too different to compare.

why do you always make such a big emphasis on froome being relatively weak in week 3 of the tour and omit what a remarkable recovery he obviously demonstrated in 2016 and 2017 vuelta? ;)

It's not like he was dropping everyone in those 3rd weeks, so my points holds true. And the Vuelta applies less here, cause nobody really is fresh at the end of the Vuelta, whereas you don't have that luxury in the 3rd week of the Tour if you've done the Giro already.

I think he approached 2016 and 2016 more conservatively anyway, to be more consistent.


The Vuelta coming near the end of the season is always going to have some odd performances. Contador's performance surprised me more than Froome's. The Vuelta also seems to be the race of choice now for many riders doing the Worlds, obviously not the ones where their season has already wound down.
movingtarget
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Re: Re:

16 May 2018 11:07

Red Rick wrote:
dacooley wrote:
Red Rick wrote:It wasn't impossible for Contador, but it was in 2015. He could've done it if he had tried it in 2009, or he could've pulled it off in 2011 with better luck.

Contador was pretty much unequaled uphill in his best years, whereas Froome had his equal uphill in the 3rd week of a GT, and Nibali, Quintana and Contador were all really strong in most of these years.

Valverde's shenanigans in 2016 show the requirements for the double more than a single dominant GT. You need to be the kind of rider that can be good easily for long periods of time. Especially for Giro/Tour, where you enter the double with very little racing compared to Tour/Vuelta, which is a thing that's pretty underrated imo.

If Froome could have ever done it is something we'll probably never know. Tour/Vuelta doubles are too different to compare.

why do you always make such a big emphasis on froome being relatively weak in week 3 of the tour and omit what a remarkable recovery he obviously demonstrated in 2016 and 2017 vuelta? ;)

It's not like he was dropping everyone in those 3rd weeks, so my points holds true. And the Vuelta applies less here, cause nobody really is fresh at the end of the Vuelta, whereas you don't have that luxury in the 3rd week of the Tour if you've done the Giro already.

I think he approached 2016 and 2016 more conservatively anyway, to be more consistent.

in other words we don't mind seeing froome, dropping all opponents off his wheel and delivering dominant time trials at the same time in third week. with such high requirements set for a giro-tour double aspirant, I don't think we'll get soon someone.
my take is pulling the double off through riding consistently and not having big ups and downs, as froome could (?) do last year but fails to do this time IS easier than doing the same through reaching super peaks in the most mountain-loaded week 3. How often do we see one demolishing the whole field in last week? there is a very few of suchlike gts.

in general giro-tour double remains possible, but it can be done only by allrounder, NOT a pure climber imo. the biggest issue is riders like contador or froome turning up once or twice in a decade at best, so a number of serious attempts is very limited.
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Re: Re:

16 May 2018 11:21

dacooley wrote:
Red Rick wrote:
dacooley wrote:
Red Rick wrote:It wasn't impossible for Contador, but it was in 2015. He could've done it if he had tried it in 2009, or he could've pulled it off in 2011 with better luck.

Contador was pretty much unequaled uphill in his best years, whereas Froome had his equal uphill in the 3rd week of a GT, and Nibali, Quintana and Contador were all really strong in most of these years.

Valverde's shenanigans in 2016 show the requirements for the double more than a single dominant GT. You need to be the kind of rider that can be good easily for long periods of time. Especially for Giro/Tour, where you enter the double with very little racing compared to Tour/Vuelta, which is a thing that's pretty underrated imo.

If Froome could have ever done it is something we'll probably never know. Tour/Vuelta doubles are too different to compare.

why do you always make such a big emphasis on froome being relatively weak in week 3 of the tour and omit what a remarkable recovery he obviously demonstrated in 2016 and 2017 vuelta? ;)

It's not like he was dropping everyone in those 3rd weeks, so my points holds true. And the Vuelta applies less here, cause nobody really is fresh at the end of the Vuelta, whereas you don't have that luxury in the 3rd week of the Tour if you've done the Giro already.

I think he approached 2016 and 2016 more conservatively anyway, to be more consistent.

in other words we don't mind seeing froome, dropping all opponents off his wheel and delivering dominant time trials at the same time in third week. with such high requirements set for a giro-tour double aspirant, I don't think we'll get soon someone.
my take is pulling the double off through riding consistently and not having big ups and downs, as froome could (?) do last year but fails to do this time IS easier than doing the same through reaching super peaks in the most mountain-loaded week 3. How often do we see one demolishing the whole field in last week? there is a very few of suchlike gts imo.

Yeah I think if there was one year where Froome could've pulled it off based on his form over 2 GTs it was 2016. That Giro was very much a race you could win by being consistent and not snowdiving, though the rain in the ITT did make the gaps a little smaller, and that Tour had all the big guns either crashing or messing up.

It's also not really clear how good Froome would be in a 2nd GT after doing a really big peak in the first one, seeing as he crashed out of the Vuelta in 2015 and didn't ride in 2013. You could look at 2012 but I'm not sure that race says that much.
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16 May 2018 15:18

If Froome continues to leak time does he climb off ? Or maybe he just treats it as training for the Tour and maybe aims for a stage win although that thinking for Froome would surprise me. In this sort of form he isn't winning the TT anyway.
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Re: Chris Froome Discussion Thread.

16 May 2018 15:19

Froome's clearly not recovering & Team Sky have been dogsh*t at the crucial positioning in this Giro.
Time for Froome to go home and focus on winning his 5th Tour.
Froome says he wants to continue, but the Dave B will presumably start advising him to be realistic.
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16 May 2018 15:29

With the pending ban would be a huge risk, stopping now and then getting suspended…
Pretty sure he will continue.
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Re:

16 May 2018 15:33

Climbing wrote:With the pending ban would be a huge risk, stopping now and then getting suspended…
Pretty sure he will continue.


Pending Ban? All the recent talk has been of him being cleared. Also, analytical findings are different to failed tests. Less of a ban being pending and more of an equal affair.
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16 May 2018 15:34

Going backwards, soon to reach Jerusalem.
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Re: Re:

16 May 2018 15:36

Oliwright wrote:
Climbing wrote:With the pending ban would be a huge risk, stopping now and then getting suspended…
Pretty sure he will continue.


Pending Ban? All the recent talk has been of him being cleared. Also, analytical findings are different to failed tests. Less of a ban being pending and more of an equal affair.


That seems wishful thinking, btw I meant "possible" pending ban, sorry if I wasn't clear.

My point is that there's the risk of dropping out of the Giro and then not being able to ride.
So imho he will ride till the end, unless there's some risk for his health or serious problem along the way.
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16 May 2018 15:45

I read also Poels was Skys backup rider for the Giro but he ddint start weel and lostalot of time one day so...typical of Poels ...inconssitent
Last edited by HelloDolly on 16 May 2018 16:28, edited 1 time in total.
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Re:

16 May 2018 16:01

HelloDolly wrote:I read also Pols was Skys backup rider for the Giro but he ddint start weel and lostalot of time one day so...typical of Poles ...inconssitent


The broken collar bone after his crash in Paris-Nice hasn’t helped there. He was pretty consistent for Froome in the Vuelta last year. I think he will be strong next week and can win a stage if Froome does abandon.
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