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Nairo Quintana discussion thread

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08 Jan 2018 21:47

Red Rick, possibly, but the two most recent before Quintana are Contador (the best Grand Tour rider of his generation) and Valverde (possibly the most consistent rider of all time, or at least one of the most consistent of all time). So that is who we have to compare him to.

Angliru, True about Valverde. He is a very unique rider. However he and Contador are the two most recent to attempt it and who we have to compare what Quintana tried to. I didn't say he couldn't win another GT. However, in the Giro/Tour double he was not as good at Valverde and Contador were in their attempts at older ages. So to me fatigue is just an excuse.
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08 Jan 2018 23:09

Do we know which races NQ is doing this year?
Son of Amsterhammer
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Re: Re:

08 Jan 2018 23:13

Angliru wrote:
Koronin wrote:He did much worse in his attempt at the Giro/Tour double than both Contador and Valverde did in theirs at older ages. Contador 1st and 5th at age 32, Valverde 3rd and 6th in his attempt at age 36. Quintana 2nd and 14th at age 27. Considering this the fatigue argument is nothing more than an excuse. Oh and for Valverde may as well throw in his 12th at la Vuelta for his 3rd Grand Tour in one season attempt at age 36. That Vuelta was also his 5th Grand Tour in a row so Quintana claiming the 4 GTs is also an excuse after what Valverde did.


Valverde is Valverde. He's one of a kind. A generational talent. I personally think that it is a bit premature for the playing of taps on Quintana's grand tour career as many have been doing since his Tour performance (not necessarily you). He's 27 and had a podium at the Giro and disappointment at the Tour. I'm confident he will come back and prove many here wrong.


The younger Quintana would never have been beaten by Dumoulin at the Giro. Many riders had success early in their careers only to see a drop off in the second half of their careers. Remains to be seen which one Quintana is but at the moment he is not doing as well as expected. But while Quintana is not winning, new GT talents are emerging on the scene. Now he can fully prepare for the Tour. He needs to regain his better climbing form, and there will be quite a few riders fancying their chances at the Tour especially if Froome doesn't show.
movingtarget
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Re:

08 Jan 2018 23:22

Son of Amsterhammer wrote:Do we know which races NQ is doing this year?


Only the Tour and a race in Colombia. It appears that Movistar has only done a calendar into February. All they've said so far is Quintana: race in Colombia and Tour, Landa:Andalucia and Tour, and Valverde: Mallorca, Valencia, Murcia, Tour (although he's stated he's racing Catalunya and the Ardennes).
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Re: Re:

09 Jan 2018 01:06

movingtarget wrote:
Angliru wrote:
Koronin wrote:He did much worse in his attempt at the Giro/Tour double than both Contador and Valverde did in theirs at older ages. Contador 1st and 5th at age 32, Valverde 3rd and 6th in his attempt at age 36. Quintana 2nd and 14th at age 27. Considering this the fatigue argument is nothing more than an excuse. Oh and for Valverde may as well throw in his 12th at la Vuelta for his 3rd Grand Tour in one season attempt at age 36. That Vuelta was also his 5th Grand Tour in a row so Quintana claiming the 4 GTs is also an excuse after what Valverde did.


Valverde is Valverde. He's one of a kind. A generational talent. I personally think that it is a bit premature for the playing of taps on Quintana's grand tour career as many have been doing since his Tour performance (not necessarily you). He's 27 and had a podium at the Giro and disappointment at the Tour. I'm confident he will come back and prove many here wrong.


The younger Quintana would never have been beaten by Dumoulin at the Giro. Many riders had success early in their careers only to see a drop off in the second half of their careers. Remains to be seen which one Quintana is but at the moment he is not doing as well as expected. But while Quintana is not winning, new GT talents are emerging on the scene. Now he can fully prepare for the Tour. He needs to regain his better climbing form, and there will be quite a few riders fancying their chances at the Tour especially if Froome doesn't show.

This Giro had warmer weather than usual, was tough, very tough down the stretch, it may have depleted NQ more than it did the others. Maybe.

And yes, the younger Quintana could have lost to Dumoulin. Tactics. There were enough mountains to beat up on TD, but no one took the Dutch seriously. With the exception of the Blockhaus attack, Quintana rode like his usual self, conservative. Dumoulin didn't have the bad day that all predicted. Nibali blew himself up on the Blockhaus, NQ may have taken him for granted too. Quintana could have won, I believe. Had he switched his head with Contador's... The legs were fine IMO. What disappoints me the most is that he showed at the '16 Vuelta that he could attack, dish out pain, win. I feel that in '17 he reverted to his comfort zone in GTs: defensive riding.

I'm not ready to write him off just yet, but he needs a strong '18 campaign. With his program being what you all evoked, if true, only the TdF win can make him bounce back. 2nd place is not good (as we and Alberto know), he's been there, done that. Twice.

Nairo Quintana, aggressive, can win the '18 TdF. Survive week one, be strong in the Alps, take time at the AdH, murder everyone on the Portet.

Easy from the couch :) .
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Re: Re:

09 Jan 2018 01:43

Tonton wrote:
movingtarget wrote:
Angliru wrote:
Koronin wrote:He did much worse in his attempt at the Giro/Tour double than both Contador and Valverde did in theirs at older ages. Contador 1st and 5th at age 32, Valverde 3rd and 6th in his attempt at age 36. Quintana 2nd and 14th at age 27. Considering this the fatigue argument is nothing more than an excuse. Oh and for Valverde may as well throw in his 12th at la Vuelta for his 3rd Grand Tour in one season attempt at age 36. That Vuelta was also his 5th Grand Tour in a row so Quintana claiming the 4 GTs is also an excuse after what Valverde did.


Valverde is Valverde. He's one of a kind. A generational talent. I personally think that it is a bit premature for the playing of taps on Quintana's grand tour career as many have been doing since his Tour performance (not necessarily you). He's 27 and had a podium at the Giro and disappointment at the Tour. I'm confident he will come back and prove many here wrong.


The younger Quintana would never have been beaten by Dumoulin at the Giro. Many riders had success early in their careers only to see a drop off in the second half of their careers. Remains to be seen which one Quintana is but at the moment he is not doing as well as expected. But while Quintana is not winning, new GT talents are emerging on the scene. Now he can fully prepare for the Tour. He needs to regain his better climbing form, and there will be quite a few riders fancying their chances at the Tour especially if Froome doesn't show.

This Giro had warmer weather than usual, was tough, very tough down the stretch, it may have depleted NQ more than it did the others. Maybe.

And yes, the younger Quintana could have lost to Dumoulin. Tactics. There were enough mountains to beat up on TD, but no one took the Dutch seriously. With the exception of the Blockhaus attack, Quintana rode like his usual self, conservative. Dumoulin didn't have the bad day that all predicted. Nibali blew himself up on the Blockhaus, NQ may have taken him for granted too. Quintana could have won, I believe. Had he switched his head with Contador's... The legs were fine IMO. What disappoints me the most is that he showed at the '16 Vuelta that he could attack, dish out pain, win. I feel that in '17 he reverted to his comfort zone in GTs: defensive riding.

I'm not ready to write him off just yet, but he needs a strong '18 campaign. With his program being what you all evoked, if true, only the TdF win can make him bounce back. 2nd place is not good (as we and Alberto know), he's been there, done that. Twice.

Nairo Quintana, aggressive, can win the '18 TdF. Survive week one, be strong in the Alps, take time at the AdH, murder everyone on the Portet.

Easy from the couch :) .


TD was a beast this year in the Giro. MAYBE an absolutely top form NQ could have pushed him to a very close outcome. But let's not forget TD went to the toilet in the middle of the race and still won. I'm not sold at all that any NQ beats TD at last years Giro.
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Re: Nairo Quintana discussion thread

09 Jan 2018 02:47

Fair enough, so let me re-phrase. Much closer. Better: winning due to the poop incident. Nairo did nothing after the Blockhaus.

Look back at stage 20 for example (I have watched that one 1000 times, guess why ;) ). Too little, too late. TD was on the edge, maybe the NL gang helped, but still. TD should have lost a lot more. There were opportunities all over and Quintana played it safe...at least agree with that...please :) .
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09 Jan 2018 02:56

I agree with Tonton, Dumoulin was far from invincible at the Giro. They spared him a couple of times, poop aside.
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Re:

09 Jan 2018 02:58

hrotha wrote:I agree with Tonton, Dumoulin was far from invincible at the Giro. They spared him a couple of times, poop aside.


We don't agree very often :) . Happy New Year hrotha :) .
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09 Jan 2018 04:10

Here's the problem in taking much from the '16 Vuelta win with attacks from Quintana. The main attack that won him that race was set up before the start by Valverde and Contador making a nice game plan. Or at least they were in a deep discussion before the start of that stage and were doing their best to make sure no one else had any idea of what they were talking about.

I think the conservative Quintana is typical and I don't expect that to change.

I also agree that Dumoulin was beatable in the Giro.
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Re:

10 Jan 2018 02:31

Koronin wrote:Here's the problem in taking much from the '16 Vuelta win with attacks from Quintana. The main attack that won him that race was set up before the start by Valverde and Contador making a nice game plan. Or at least they were in a deep discussion before the start of that stage and were doing their best to make sure no one else had any idea of what they were talking about.

I think the conservative Quintana is typical and I don't expect that to change.

I also agree that Dumoulin was beatable in the Giro.

Somehow I replied to this post and it got away. I agree.
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Re: Re:

10 Jan 2018 08:29

Tonton wrote:
Koronin wrote:Here's the problem in taking much from the '16 Vuelta win with attacks from Quintana. The main attack that won him that race was set up before the start by Valverde and Contador making a nice game plan. Or at least they were in a deep discussion before the start of that stage and were doing their best to make sure no one else had any idea of what they were talking about.

I think the conservative Quintana is typical and I don't expect that to change.

I also agree that Dumoulin was beatable in the Giro.

Somehow I replied to this post and it got away. I agree.


Both Quintana and Nibali were in crap shape in Giro. I guess Quintana simply blew up his prep training for Giro-Tour double. I don't know the excuse for Nibs, but he was all different man in Vuelta and in that shape would've probably won Giro even without poop.

Quintana's riding looks like he has lost all the kick he still used to have on 2013-2015. Riding like 35 year old instead of 27.
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10 Jan 2018 11:48

I obviously cannot rule out the possibility of Quintana's best days being behind him, but personally I don't think that's the case at all. Last years Giro and Tour were his 3rd and 4th consecutive GTs in a row. Adding the four shorter stage races he did before the Giro then it is not exactly surprising that cumulative fatigue caught up with him even with the off-season in between. If there were problems and miscalculations with preparation then it further compromised his performances. How he performes during this upcoming season will say a lot about him as a rider and where he stands in terms of his career trajectory.

There is quite widespread dislike of him in this forum and that dislike largely explains why so many people are getting ahead of themselves proclaiming that we have seen the best of Quintana. It might turn out to be true, but at this stage reaching such a conclusion is influenced more by wishful thinking rather than rational analysis.
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Re:

10 Jan 2018 14:11

Põhja Konn wrote:I obviously cannot rule out the possibility of Quintana's best days being behind him, but personally I don't think that's the case at all. Last years Giro and Tour were his 3rd and 4th consecutive GTs in a row. Adding the four shorter stage races he did before the Giro then it is not exactly surprising that cumulative fatigue caught up with him even with the off-season in between. If there were problems and miscalculations with preparation then it further compromised his performances. How he performes during this upcoming season will say a lot about him as a rider and where he stands in terms of his career trajectory.

There is quite widespread dislike of him in this forum and that dislike largely explains why so many people are getting ahead of themselves proclaiming that we have seen the best of Quintana. It might turn out to be true, but at this stage reaching such a conclusion is influenced more by wishful thinking rather than rational analysis.

This.

I will add, as Bambino said, Quintana and Nibali clearly underperformed during the Giro. Nibali people had a good explanation and that was that age was catching up with him. For Quintana the explanation was not so clear.

I don't agree with comparing Quintana to Valverde because they are two complete type of riders. And when it comes to consistency Valverde is one of the best in history.

Thanks.
Last edited by Escarabajo on 10 Jan 2018 15:23, edited 2 times in total.
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10 Jan 2018 14:28

I feel like some people want to like him, he just makes it hard for others to root for him. That’s me. I’d love to see him tear it up. I’d cheer for him. He just don’t do it much. Personally I think that’s where a lot of the “harshness” comes from.
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Re:

10 Jan 2018 16:59

Jspear wrote:I feel like some people want to like him, he just makes it hard for others to root for him. That’s me. I’d love to see him tear it up. I’d cheer for him. He just don’t do it much. Personally I think that’s where a lot of the “harshness” comes from.

I think expectations on him to entertain are too high, resulting in people feeling let down by him. The reality is that he does a serious all-in, race splitting, attack from 50+km out pretty much every GT that he rides; and has won two GTs already thanks to those attacks. How many other GT contenders can say the same? Quintana is more aggressive than nearly all of them.

There seems to be some expectation that he should be lighting up every mountain stage and putting everyone to the sword day after day as soon as the road tilts up, which just isn't realistic in the modern era. At least not if you want to win GTs.
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Re:

10 Jan 2018 17:04

Jspear wrote:I feel like some people want to like him, he just makes it hard for others to root for him. That’s me. I’d love to see him tear it up. I’d cheer for him. He just don’t do it much. Personally I think that’s where a lot of the “harshness” comes from.

For me, he is a very uncharacteristic rider. Great climber but without any twists and turns. It's like rooting for Porte, another boring but strong climber.

In terms on racing, I'm definitely #TeamLanda.
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Re:

10 Jan 2018 17:58

Jspear wrote:I feel like some people want to like him, he just makes it hard for others to root for him. That’s me. I’d love to see him tear it up. I’d cheer for him. He just don’t do it much. Personally I think that’s where a lot of the “harshness” comes from.


I feel the same way. He looked really good before the Giro. He annoyed the hell out of me the last 2-3 years with his cautious riding but i think the kick is still there...
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11 Jan 2018 00:54

Nibali has always been a bit inconsistent.
Yes Valverde and Quintana are totally different type of riders, Quintana is supposed to be a Grand Tour specialist while Valverde is the definition of an all rounder and may be more of a classics specialist than anything else.
Quintana does make it hard for a lot of us to cheer for him. Wanted to like him and cheer for him, but there's something missing.
In terms of pure racing I'm also #teamLanda
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Re: Nairo Quintana discussion thread

11 Jan 2018 01:59

If someone can dial in for anything, Nibali for a Giro is a given IMO. And the 100th...a shot at immortality. He too never believed that Dumoulin could pull it, that Quintana is a lesser ITT performer, played it conservative, nowing that a move on the stage 16 descent could be enough to ice the cake.

I don't believe in all the excuses for Nibali and Quintana.I think that Dumoulin was really good, they missed their opportunities.Mared each other: stages 18-19 show it afaik.

The argument about the lack of love for Quintana is a joke: most want Froome to lose, he was and may still be the only hope.

I believe in Dumoulin. Quintana? 2018 will be huge for him. One way or the other...
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