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Carlos Betancur discussion thread

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Re: Carlos Betancur discussion thread

15 Mar 2017 14:32

SKSemtex wrote:It is kind of funny that Betancur´s thread has on this forum almost as many pages as Sagan and 15 times more then Boonen or GVA :D


Well those guys are consistent enough that you don't have to ask 'wtf is up with them' every 5 minutes, or 'is he close to race weight yet', or 'has anyone heard anything about him in the last three months'; that tends to make a long thread.
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Re: Carlos Betancur discussion thread

15 Mar 2017 14:44

skidmark wrote:
SKSemtex wrote:It is kind of funny that Betancur´s thread has on this forum almost as many pages as Sagan and 15 times more then Boonen or GVA :D


Well those guys are consistent enough that you don't have to ask 'wtf is up with them' every 5 minutes, or 'is he close to race weight yet', or 'has anyone heard anything about him in the last three months'; that tends to make a long thread.


Well, Contador must be pretty inconsistent then. :D

I was always wondering why e.g. Cance has so few pages here as well. Not popular enough?
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Re: Carlos Betancur discussion thread

15 Mar 2017 14:44

skidmark wrote:
SKSemtex wrote:It is kind of funny that Betancur´s thread has on this forum almost as many pages as Sagan and 15 times more then Boonen or GVA :D


Well those guys are consistent enough that you don't have to ask 'wtf is up with them' every 5 minutes, or 'is he close to race weight yet', or 'has anyone heard anything about him in the last three months'; that tends to make a long thread.
Also, we are really at this point adding to now well established tradition of "why are we talking about him" and "why is this thread so long" discourse on this thread. Paying attention to the attention on the attention that is paid to someone is really hip these days.

SKSemtex wrote:Well, Contador must be pretty inconsistent then. :D ?
That's not all of it, to be certain, but I do think that the twist and turns in Alberto's mercurial rides through the stages of his races, his career, and his assault on the record books have provided plenty of ammunition for both his critics and his admirers.
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Re:

15 Mar 2017 14:49

Escarabajo wrote:This is what this thread is about, trying to debate about what keeps Betancur happy!!! :D

Cerverza, Billar, Arepas.
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Re:

15 Mar 2017 15:25

Ricco' wrote:One thing we should acknowledge is his love for his son, very good to see. If we have to wait until little Carlitos Betancur is 18 years, fine. Betancur Sr. will be like 44/45 years, still on time to battle it out with Rebellin, Papy Horner and the returned Cobra Ricco for the 115th Giro d'Italia.


I think Carlitos will finish what Carlos started (and no, i'm not talking about food)
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15 Mar 2017 16:07

The more pressing question is if he continues his current vein of form into 2017 ( which will make it 3 years ) Will he a WT contract for 2018.
Last edited by yaco on 15 Mar 2017 16:45, edited 1 time in total.
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15 Mar 2017 16:14

I'm pretty sure he has a WT contract for 2017. Not heard about any plans from Movistar to instantly terminate it.
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Re:

15 Mar 2017 16:16

yaco wrote:The more pressing question is if he continues his current vein of form into 2017 ( which will make it 3 years ) Will he a WT contract for 2017.

Probably not, but his name alone would still be worth a decent contract at the proconti level I think. It's too bad he was not demoted last year to a proconti or conti level team, that might have been just the spark he needed to regain his top form. Maybe I'll be wrong about him and he'll have a great season, in which case I'll be perfectly content with that. :)
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Re: Re:

15 Mar 2017 16:46

Irondan wrote:
yaco wrote:The more pressing question is if he continues his current vein of form into 2017 ( which will make it 3 years ) Will he a WT contract for 2017.

Probably not, but his name alone would still be worth a decent contract at the proconti level I think. It's too bad he was not demoted last year to a proconti or conti level team, that might have been just the spark he needed to regain his top form. Maybe I'll be wrong about him and he'll have a great season, in which case I'll be perfectly content with that. :)


Think he may pick up a one year WT contract, but will not be surprised if rides at the PCT Level.
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Re: Carlos Betancur discussion thread

15 Mar 2017 18:15

The real answer as why this rider has this many pages compared to anyone else is that this forum has an compulsive obsession with Columbian and portuguese riders. At least 20 posters will comment on a rider who finishes 25th like it's an achievement because he is Colombian. It takes a Contador or Peter Sagan for these posters to even consider anyone outside of this country. It's sickening in every single thread you can read the word "Colombian" for a rider who has failed for five years while skipping the true protagonists of the race , Australian riders are especially down castes in favour of this top 25 Colombian brigade
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15 Mar 2017 18:31

If there was a real hype for Colombian riders in this forum we would have crashed it many times long time ago. At least for the last 3 years.

LOL.

As for the hype for this rider, well we continue to discuss it because is mostly negative and not positive. I guess we like to talk about bad news more than about good news. Sorry about that.
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15 Mar 2017 18:41

Is that startlist even accurate? I noticed Carapaz is on there too, but he didn't mention MSR when he talked about his program a few days ago.
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Re:

15 Mar 2017 18:48

Escarabajo wrote:If there was a real hype for Colombian riders in this forum we would have crashed it many times long time ago. At least for the last 3 years.

LOL.

As for the hype for this rider, well we continue to discuss it because is mostly negative and not positive. I guess we like to talk about bad news more than about good news. Sorry about that.


You nailed it. Malevolence :D

You can see it also on Sagan´s or Froome´s thread. The bigger failure the more comments in their thread.
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15 Mar 2017 18:48

Scarponi wrote:The real answer as why this rider has this many pages compared to anyone else is that this forum has an compulsive obsession with Columbian and portuguese riders. At least 20 posters will comment on a rider who finishes 25th like it's an achievement because he is Colombian. It takes a Contador or Peter Sagan for these posters to even consider anyone outside of this country. It's sickening in every single thread you can read the word "Colombian" for a rider who has failed for five years while skipping the true protagonists of the race , Australian riders are especially down castes in favour of this top 25 Colombian brigade

Oh, come on. That's a complete exaggeration. You don't hear all that much about Portuguese riders (though maybe a bit more than they deserve given the level of riders) but the talk about Colombian riders has been mostly justified. We went from guys like Duque and Serpa to an age where Colombians are winning and competing to win the biggest races on the calendar. It would be similar if a bunch of Malaysians, Ugandans, or Icelanders suddenly started putting up similar results.

Let's be honest, people are fascinated with Betancur because he burst on the scene in some really big races early in his career and has been a trainwreck since. He somehow performs (at times) despite having a different build from most guys and always has drama surrounding him. It's just human nature that he gets more discussion than his results merit.
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Re: Carlos Betancur discussion thread

15 Mar 2017 19:03

Scarponi wrote:The real answer as why this rider has this many pages compared to anyone else is that this forum has an compulsive obsession with Columbian and portuguese riders. At least 20 posters will comment on a rider who finishes 25th like it's an achievement because he is Colombian. It takes a Contador or Peter Sagan for these posters to even consider anyone outside of this country. It's sickening in every single thread you can read the word "Colombian" for a rider who has failed for five years while skipping the true protagonists of the race , Australian riders are especially down castes in favour of this top 25 Colombian brigade


The Colombian riders are pretty deserving of the attention that they get but this Portuguese phenomenon that you speak of I can't really say that I've noticed it at all. If we have many Portuguese posters on here it's only natural that they discuss their nation's riders often. Having these posters providing insights that we may not always have at our disposal otherwise is a gift IMO.
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Re: Carlos Betancur discussion thread

15 Mar 2017 20:22

Angliru wrote:
Scarponi wrote:The real answer as why this rider has this many pages compared to anyone else is that this forum has an compulsive obsession with Columbian and portuguese riders. At least 20 posters will comment on a rider who finishes 25th like it's an achievement because he is Colombian. It takes a Contador or Peter Sagan for these posters to even consider anyone outside of this country. It's sickening in every single thread you can read the word "Colombian" for a rider who has failed for five years while skipping the true protagonists of the race , Australian riders are especially down castes in favour of this top 25 Colombian brigade


The Colombian riders are pretty deserving of the attention that they get but this Portuguese phenomenon that you speak of I can't really say that I've noticed it at all. If we have many Portuguese posters on here it's only natural that they discuss their nation's riders often. Having these posters providing insights that we may not always have at our disposal otherwise is a gift IMO.
I think this is the wrong diagnosis. There are many things at play (among them, that GC riders get more play than classics' men), but one of the main issues is hype. People here love drama, they love to hype up riders as soon as they show any promise and then knock them down as soon as they show the first signs of not being able to live up to said hype. So riders like Joe Dombrowski (6 pages), Ruben Fernandez (3 pages), Egan Bernal (8 pages!) or Wilco Kelderman (35 pages!!!) get a lot more discussion without a single WorldTour win than someone like Darwin Atapuma (1 page) or Gianni Meersman (no thread :( ). Similarly, Richie Porte gets about as much discussion as Alejandro Valverde.

As I've stated, I think Betancur is a perfect storm of sorts. A rider whose strengths and early results matches our dreams, and whose present and weaknesses matches our realities.
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15 Mar 2017 20:30

Obviously it's probably just a mixture of frustration and shadenfreude. Frustration in that he's wasting potential, and schadenfruede in that he's doing in it in such a spectacular manner, with fans still maintaining hope of redemption. Trainwreck, meet rubber-neckers. I must admit I find it fascinating, and am chalking that up to a personal character flaw.

edited for clarity
Last edited by GraftPunk on 15 Mar 2017 20:34, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Re:

15 Mar 2017 20:31

SKSemtex wrote:
Escarabajo wrote:If there was a real hype for Colombian riders in this forum we would have crashed it many times long time ago. At least for the last 3 years.

LOL.

As for the hype for this rider, well we continue to discuss it because is mostly negative and not positive. I guess we like to talk about bad news more than about good news. Sorry about that.


You nailed it. Malevolence :D

You can see it also on Sagan´s or Froome´s thread.[b] The bigger failure the more comments in their thread[/b].


LOL and who has the most comments in their thread? LOL
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Re: Carlos Betancur discussion thread

15 Mar 2017 20:54

Angliru wrote:
Scarponi wrote:The real answer as why this rider has this many pages compared to anyone else is that this forum has an compulsive obsession with Columbian and portuguese riders. At least 20 posters will comment on a rider who finishes 25th like it's an achievement because he is Colombian. It takes a Contador or Peter Sagan for these posters to even consider anyone outside of this country. It's sickening in every single thread you can read the word "Colombian" for a rider who has failed for five years while skipping the true protagonists of the race , Australian riders are especially down castes in favour of this top 25 Colombian brigade


The Colombian riders are pretty deserving of the attention that they get but this Portuguese phenomenon that you speak of I can't really say that I've noticed it at all. If we have many Portuguese posters on here it's only natural that they discuss their nation's riders often. Having these posters providing insights that we may not always have at our disposal otherwise is a gift IMO.


Although I'm biased to the colombian threads (I will point out that the ratio of colombian wt riders to wins is one of the highest, if not the highest, maybe Slovakia has a higher ratio) but the case of Betancur comes down to what is really seen as raw talent vs wasted opportunities.
In 2011 he won Giro Dell'Emilia and was 'on the map'. 2012 he had that big fight where Liquigas said they signed him and Acqua & Sapone said that no, he was with them. Betancur stayed with Acqua & Sapone. At this point, we knew he was 'special', that teams were fighting for him, but also 'special' because, c'mon, who signs two different contracts with their own clauses? Red Flag goes up.
2013 came, he goes to Ag2r (another red flag. two italian teams fighting for him so he goes to a french team with a huge language barrier?) and he gets 3rd at Fleche Wallonne, 4th at Liege Bastone Liege, and 5th at the Giro while getting the white jersey. 7th at Pais Vasco. But then Vuelta a España comes and we hear he just doesn't want to ride anymore for the year. Red Flag again.
2014. We hear the rumors..we see his WEIGHT at Paris-Nice. Looks like the team isn't happy, we all hear that he doesn't have the same shape, that no one wants to work for him, yet he still MANAGES TO WIN BACK TO BACK STAGES and the GC!!. Raw talent. Only person that I know that had THAT much raw talent was Sagan, where he was winning everywhere. Yes, Sagan is the GOAT, but he started with similar hype of raw talent. We all think it: If he gets serious, he will be the best of the escarabajos. He goes on and wins stage 1 at Tour du Haut, wins the GC, wins the points. Yes, small European tour race in France, but we see is winning, we assume trajectory is going up for the year. Then he doesn't SHOW UP FOR THE TOUR?!?!. (a FRENCH team at Le Tour picks him for leader and he does this?! the gall!) Another fight with the team (just like Liquigas?) at Ag2r. He gets stuck with "visa" problems for the rest of the year. Red Flag Again! (is that like two here?).
2014 still: He is a head case, we hear about billiards and beer and parties. He randomly shows up to colombian races and WINS THEM (but then gets disqualified because he is WT/he didn't sign up for the race/he forgot to sign in before the race, etc..).
2015: We hear Arredondo is willing to train with him but Arredondo gets wrecked and is out for 2 years. We also heard Uran and Henao went to knock at this door for training and he wouldn't come out. We hear the issue is the team Ag2r and he refuses to race with them (just like he refused to race for Liquigas).CRAZY RED FLAGS!
2016: If anyone will fix him, it will be Movistar. He does Asturias. Not a big race, Hugh Carthy wins the overall but out of shape Betancur wins stage 2! another roller stage, not a climber one, but this is great! beginning of the year starting out well. He does Castilla y Leon and WINS STAGE 1!. He then become domestique #1 and helps his new best friend Valverde win the next stage and the overall! what we wanted! He goes to the Giro but struggles, does some breakaways, but ends up abandoning on stage 19 (you forgot he was there? LOL).
2017: Too soon to tell. He started 2016 around March/April so he is a bit ahead of schedule.
This is actually a really important race for him. Anacona is there with him. Arredondo will be there, probably side to side. Bernal (20) and Martinez (21) and even Gaviria (23) are all young colombians that will love to be racing with the great Betancur. Add Uran to the event and his teammate Carapaz from Ecuador and you have your typical training ride in Colombia at this race. Betancur is now 28 (P. Sagan is 27). This year WILL be his last option at the WT peloton (IMO). Duarte, Sarmiento, Avila, Rodriguez, Rubiano,Chalapud all make up the list of pretty good colombians that couldn't cut it at WT for many reasons and are back at continental levels. Betancur is done if he doesn't do anything in 2017
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15 Mar 2017 22:42

Normally I skip long, wall-of-text posts but you've summed it up fairly well
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