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Brothers in (crank) arms - Yates Discussion Thread

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Re: Re:

23 May 2018 19:24

Parker wrote:
Blanco wrote:
jaylew wrote:
del1962 wrote:Simon Yates is much more an attacking rider than Quintana, though I think Quintana is the better climber, though not by much

Don't agree with this at all. We've seen Nairo attack many, many times in the mountains.


Simon Yates in this Giro was more aggressive than Quintana ever was. He attacked Dumoulin relentlessly, whenever occasion arose. That's something we never seen from Quintana, in fact he lost biggest race of his career because this same lack of attacking spirit and aggressiveness.

Dumoulin went into last year's Giro as an outsider, just as Yates did this year. Last year's Giro was billed as Quintana v Nibali and they spent most of the race just looking at each other and ignoring Dumoulin.

Similarly when Yates attacked on Etna to bridge to Chaves, there wasn't a great deal of reaction. The biggest test of a rider is winning when they are the favourite.


They still didn't know who he was when he attacked and won the 3 stages after Etna then?
Waterloo Sunrise
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Re: Re:

23 May 2018 19:32

Waterloo Sunrise wrote:
Parker wrote:
Blanco wrote:
jaylew wrote:
del1962 wrote:Simon Yates is much more an attacking rider than Quintana, though I think Quintana is the better climber, though not by much

Don't agree with this at all. We've seen Nairo attack many, many times in the mountains.


Simon Yates in this Giro was more aggressive than Quintana ever was. He attacked Dumoulin relentlessly, whenever occasion arose. That's something we never seen from Quintana, in fact he lost biggest race of his career because this same lack of attacking spirit and aggressiveness.

Dumoulin went into last year's Giro as an outsider, just as Yates did this year. Last year's Giro was billed as Quintana v Nibali and they spent most of the race just looking at each other and ignoring Dumoulin.

Similarly when Yates attacked on Etna to bridge to Chaves, there wasn't a great deal of reaction. The biggest test of a rider is winning when they are the favourite.


They still didn't know who he was when he attacked and won the 3 stages after Etna then?

I think you've missed the point.
Parker
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Re: Re:

24 May 2018 04:36

Pricey_sky wrote:
To be fair I can’t remember a race where Quintana attacked as much as Yates has. Though as RedRick said, that’s just one GT and not a big sample size.

I think it's mostly a case of recency bias. We've forgotten how attacking Nairo has been because he's been off his game lately and Simon's exploits are super fresh in our minds.

Blanco wrote:
jaylew wrote:
Blanco wrote:
jaylew wrote:
del1962 wrote:Simon Yates is much more an attacking rider than Quintana, though I think Quintana is the better climber, though not by much

Don't agree with this at all. We've seen Nairo attack many, many times in the mountains.


Simon Yates in this Giro was more aggressive than Quintana ever was. He attacked Dumoulin relentlessly, whenever occasion arose. That's something we never seen from Quintana, in fact he lost biggest race of his career because this same lack of attacking spirit and aggressiveness.

You need to watch more races.


Enlighten me :rolleyes:

The fact is, Simon has attacked what, 3 times? 4? Nairo has attacked that many times and more in single stages of the Tour and Vuelta, the difference being Nairo was usually attacking a Froome at the top of his game so those attacks didn't always stick. I'd hardly say Simon has attacked "relentlessly" as he hasn't had to. Relentlessly is the number of times Nairo attacked in the 2013 and 2015 Tours. Nairo attacked 10-15 times in 2015 and 8 or 9 times in 2013. Same at the Vuelta he won. Hell, he probably attacked at the 2014 Giro as many times as Simon has this Giro.

In no way am I trying to slight Yates as he's been fantastic and has done exactly as he should have. I'm just saying that the narrative that Simon has been more attacking in this Giro than Nairo has ever been is completely ludicrous and 100% untrue.
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24 May 2018 12:35

Tour 2015 :surprised: You've got to be kidding! He lost it precisely because he didn't want to put everything on the line. He failed to do something similar to what Yates did on stage 15. Last time Nairo Quintana was an aggressive rider is Tour 2013. After that, he is becoming more and more conservative. He's quite often strongest rider in the mountains, but also quite often fails to materialize that.
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24 May 2018 12:48

In 2016 and 2017 didn't look even remotely as strong as before, still elite climber, but not the same level.
Not sure which one is the real Quintana.
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Re:

24 May 2018 13:59

Blanco wrote:Tour 2015 :surprised: You've got to be kidding! He lost it precisely because he didn't want to put everything on the line. He failed to do something similar to what Yates did on stage 15. Last time Nairo Quintana was an aggressive rider is Tour 2013. After that, he is becoming more and more conservative. He's quite often strongest rider in the mountains, but also quite often fails to materialize that.

Nairo tried multiple times in stages 12, 14, and 17 before finally being successful in stages 19 and 20. The difference is that Simon has been able to easily get away the few times he's attacked because he's far stronger than the people he's attacking which mostly hasn't been the case for Nairo as he almost always has gone up against Froome in his prime and his Tour train. I agree that Nairo hasn't been as aggressive in the last couple of years but we've also seen him getting dropped a bunch. It's not a video game, guys can only do what their legs let them do. It's easy to drop guys when you're the strongest rider in the race. You stated that Simon has been been more attacking this Giro than Nairo ever has been and that's just not a true statement as there are multiple instances of Nairo attacking more in a GT.
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24 May 2018 17:14

Yates had created a working advantage with one tactic applied several times. He then buried himself in the TT to try and limit his losses. The next two stages work in his favour, but he looked very shaken up by today's events.

This is an awesome race
(Warning: Posts may contain traces of irony)
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Re: Brothers in (crank) arms - Yates Discussion Thread

24 May 2018 23:28

Gigs_98 wrote:This sounds like such a trek move. Throw huge sums of money at a rider because of one performance after which he'll probably never reach that level again. Still surprised they didn't sign Kruijswijk.


Of course they might offer too much money by buying a rider on the basis of a breakthrough performance, but leaving aside salary, S Yates would appear to be about the best bet as a GT leader available on the market. He is only 25 and this performance isn’t coming out of nowhere - as a 23 year old he came 6th in the Vuelta and as a 24 year old he came 7th in the Tour and was best young rider. He’s a guy who has all along shown GT contender potential, so actually being a GT contender once is unlikely to be a weird outlier.

The old order among GT contenders is breaking down as the dominant riders of the last period retire or decline. Quintana is the only multiple GT winner who still has much of his peak years to go. Of the guys with one GT only Dumoulin looks a certainty to win more. A lot of GTs over the next few years are going to be won by riders who currently have zero. It might be an open period where a few guys win one, or one or two or three might quickly establish dominance. There are big possibilities there for teams willing to take a punt on a rider who might be one of those guys. Sky have Bernal, Sunweb have Dumoulin, Movistar have Quintana and Landa, Astana have Lopez, after this Giro, some team is going to bet big on Yates. There really aren’t many options if a team wants to be a GC player over the next say four or five years.
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25 May 2018 02:06

Yates burned out in the last week? After effects showing from the effort he put in to Sappada and the ITT?
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25 May 2018 03:24

It had to run out somewhere. In the TT he also lost most time in the last kilometers. It could be just a bad day, but I think he is running on an empty tank
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Re: Brothers in (crank) arms - Yates Discussion Thread

25 May 2018 06:31

There was always a likelihood that Yates would lose time to Tom on this stage. A 40 minute effort on a climb that rises at a consistent 7% suits Tom D. The really worrying thing for Yates is that he lost time to 4 of the favourites, that he couldn't stay with the group when the attacks went. With two such hard stages to come his position looks really shaky.
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25 May 2018 06:52

I think he’ll hold it, mostly because Froome will pay a bit like last time and Dumo will suffer the multi climbing.
I would be very careful about Pozzovivo, which seems the one with the best legs…
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25 May 2018 09:30

I've never been this worried before a stage.

Contador lost over 2 mins on this stage without teammates and he didn't even have to do the Jaff. Hopefully MS have been clever with their team and they were all resting up yesterday. I think they probably thought Nieve was enough with only one climb.
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25 May 2018 13:00

Looks like you were right to be worried. :(
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25 May 2018 13:05

Yep, he got the 3 stages and the Maglia Rosa for 2 weeks. Success
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25 May 2018 13:08

I suppose so... but imagine being this close, having looked the strongest for two weeks, only to crack when you could virtually see the finish.
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Re:

25 May 2018 13:11

RedheadDane wrote:I suppose so... but imagine being this close, having looked the strongest for two weeks, only to crack when you could virtually see the finish.


But thats why is vital to strike when you still can and get something out of the race. That was why I made the comparison to Kruijswijk in 2016 (altho Steven K really couldn't win a stage beforehand)
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Re: Re:

25 May 2018 13:12

Valv.Piti wrote:
RedheadDane wrote:I suppose so... but imagine being this close, having looked the strongest for two weeks, only to crack when you could virtually see the finish.


But thats why is vital to strike when you still can and get something out of the race. That was why I made the comparison to Kruijswijk in 2016 (altho Steven K really couldn't win a stage beforehand)


I guess cycling is a cruel sport.



(And I'm overly emotional today...)
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Re:

25 May 2018 14:21

Dekker_Tifosi wrote:It had to run out somewhere. In the TT he also lost most time in the last kilometers. It could be just a bad day, but I think he is running on an empty tank

Empty tank it is
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25 May 2018 14:22

Nah, it's Chaves' fault. :)
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