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Mikel Landa Discussion Thread

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28 Dec 2017 12:00

people tend to forget that contador had a nasty crash in stage 6 of the giro. without that crash, he would be able to destroy everyone in the mountains. Just look to abetone, only porte (who is the only rider to follow froome frequently) and aru (with the help of porte) could follow him and abetone is not that hard. Landa, only gained time on madonna di campiglio because of aru and that insane astana team. landa can't drop contador if it wasn't aru to limit contador's movements. the only stage where landa was stronger than contador, was finestre. in corvinia, landa tried to drop contador 2 or 3 times and he can't!! After that, aru attacked and gained 1 minute.
But I still think landa will be the best of movistar despite his 0 gt's against 2 gt's from quintana. Quintana will not improve and landa is getting better and better
portugal11
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Re:

28 Dec 2017 12:39

HelloDolly wrote:Firt of all no one is saying that Landa is not an excellent climber

But a Tour winner is something else

And he was not the strongest in the 2017 Tour...that was Froome followed by Dan Martin (who rode with cracked bones) & Roman Bardet
Landa had the same advantage as most of the top 10 as he did little of the pulling and sat behind the SKY train ...Kwait and Nieve did that
At 2015 Giro the strongest was Contador

Being able to climb well does not make you the strongest ....you must be able to win a GT ...and that is mental fortitude as well as physical
You must also be consistent ...day in and day out and take the pressure

And so far Landa has not proved this to anyone ...nor has his TT been great

Of course he can improve but so can a whole host of riders like Pinot, Bardet Soler, Barguil, Zakarin, etc

Landa's boasts are premature and ridiculous

Deliver a GT then talk


I actually think it was Uran, but he hadn't got the b**** to attack!
User avatar Blanco
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Re:

28 Dec 2017 12:48

portugal11 wrote:But I still think landa will be the best of movistar despite his 0 gt's against 2 gt's from quintana. Quintana will not improve and landa is getting better and better


Agreed 100% with this. But I might have a cognitive bias (I've never really liked Quintana). Don't entirely bury the good ol' Valverde tho. His 2017 was remarkable regarding his age.
Krokro
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Re: Re:

28 Dec 2017 12:53

Blanco wrote:
HelloDolly wrote:Firt of all no one is saying that Landa is not an excellent climber

But a Tour winner is something else

And he was not the strongest in the 2017 Tour...that was Froome followed by Dan Martin (who rode with cracked bones) & Roman Bardet
Landa had the same advantage as most of the top 10 as he did little of the pulling and sat behind the SKY train ...Kwait and Nieve did that
At 2015 Giro the strongest was Contador

Being able to climb well does not make you the strongest ....you must be able to win a GT ...and that is mental fortitude as well as physical
You must also be consistent ...day in and day out and take the pressure

And so far Landa has not proved this to anyone ...nor has his TT been great

Of course he can improve but so can a whole host of riders like Pinot, Bardet Soler, Barguil, Zakarin, etc

Landa's boasts are premature and ridiculous

Deliver a GT then talk


I actually think it was Uran, but he hadn't got the b**** to attack!



You are probably right ...hard to tell
I put in Martin becasue he got up from that crash and attacked every day
Bardet because he attacked Froome on every downhill

Strongest is not just physical ...Uran and Quintana not attacking is a wekaness that takes away from the label of strongest


It is possible that this years Tour will be a fight of the psychologically flawed (as I see them)

Quintana v Porte v Landa v Uran v Pinot

Without Froome, Contador or Dumoulin

At least Nibali will attack .....The shark could be up for Tour 2
And Dan Martin who gets no credit is a fighter but like Bardet cannot win with that TT
HelloDolly
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28 Dec 2017 15:27

He has proved himself more in GTs than Porte has, yet the latter has a team build around him and is considered one of the favorites to win the Tour.
Goodbye, Tommeke; thank you for all you have given us!
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Re:

28 Dec 2017 15:53

Netserk wrote:He has proved himself more in GTs than Porte has, yet the latter has a team build around him and is considered one of the favorites to win the Tour.

That said, Porte has a better palmarès than Landa when it comes to stage races. :p
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Re:

28 Dec 2017 15:57

Netserk wrote:He has proved himself more in GTs than Porte has, yet the latter has a team build around him and is considered one of the favorites to win the Tour.


It's fair to compare him with Porte, problem is he is comparing himself to Froome or Quintana. Landa is so full of himself that even teaching him a few lessons won't help. It will be fun watching him attack Quintana while Valverde will try to reel him in or having a mechanical on the pave while every Movi rider is busy helping Nairo.
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Re:

28 Dec 2017 17:08

Netserk wrote:He has proved himself more in GTs than Porte has, yet the latter has a team build around him and is considered one of the favorites to win the Tour.

The latter has chosen a team that wanted him as their sole captain for the Tour. Landa probably could have done the same, but chose not to.

All of the posters blaming Landa's teams for holding him back during GTs tend to forget he would probably never have been in the position to challenge for the win if not riding for that very team.
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28 Dec 2017 17:16

My point was simply that if Porte was in the same team as Quintana and both targeted the Tour, you'd give them both freedom to target the GC and not be bound a priori to help the other. While Quintana is more likely to win the Tour, I find it perfectly reasonable that Landa will ride to win as well. After the first rest day, we'll see if both are still in contention. If so, they should be able to benefit from that without shackling either of them.
Goodbye, Tommeke; thank you for all you have given us!
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Re:

28 Dec 2017 18:28

Netserk wrote:He has proved himself more in GTs than Porte has, yet the latter has a team build around him and is considered one of the favorites to win the Tour.

Yeah but Porte didn't sign for Sky after leaving Sky only to then go all "damn I don't get to ride for myself so much at Sky" later.

Twice.
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28 Dec 2017 22:45

Didn't Valverde make the comment back at the teammeetings that sending himself, Landa and Quintana to the Tour would be fun. He also made some comment that they'd all be free to ride as they each see fit. So if that's the case (and I doubt he's going to say something that team won't back) then Landa is really just talking and probably trying to get into Quintana's head. With Valverde's comments it would seem that he doesn't particularly care what Landa is saying.
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28 Dec 2017 23:41

Porte needs a change of luck. His form going into the Tour was good but he always seems to find trouble of some sort and time is running out for him. Landa just has to get on with it. After his Giro podium which seems like many years ago now he needs to show that he is capable of putting it together over three weeks after riding in the service of others in recent times.
movingtarget
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Re:

28 Dec 2017 23:54

movingtarget wrote:Porte needs a change of luck. His form going into the Tour was good but he always seems to find trouble of some sort and time is running out for him. Landa just has to get on with it. After his Giro podium which seems like many years ago now he needs to show that he is capable of putting it together over three weeks after riding in the service of others in recent times.



Valverde saying they can all ride for themselves is all well and good but what if someone needs to chase Porte or Uran or Bardet ??

There has to be some kind of hierarchy ...plus Valverde doesnt care as it lets him off the hook and he has his Tour podium and he knows he will not better that ...Its Quintana who is going to have the issue with the free for all and the no chasing Landa
HelloDolly
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Re: Re:

29 Dec 2017 06:07

HelloDolly wrote:
movingtarget wrote:Porte needs a change of luck. His form going into the Tour was good but he always seems to find trouble of some sort and time is running out for him. Landa just has to get on with it. After his Giro podium which seems like many years ago now he needs to show that he is capable of putting it together over three weeks after riding in the service of others in recent times.



Valverde saying they can all ride for themselves is all well and good but what if someone needs to chase Porte or Uran or Bardet ??

There has to be some kind of hierarchy ...plus Valverde doesnt care as it lets him off the hook and he has his Tour podium and he knows he will not better that ...Its Quintana who is going to have the issue with the free for all and the no chasing Landa


Valverde's podium days are over. The last thing Quintana will want is a split team especially with the difficult first week. I think Valverde will mainly concentrate on the classics now and the shorter stage races.
movingtarget
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Re:

29 Dec 2017 15:57

Netserk wrote:He has proved himself more in GTs than Porte has, yet the latter has a team build around him and is considered one of the favorites to win the Tour.

I think that's because landa hasn't shown his full climbing potential since 2015 and even then it was in the giro and not the tour. When people say landa was the strongest climber last season they say that based on the assumption that landa would have been even stronger if he hadn't had the giro in his legs and hadn't worked for froome, but people never saw that he could beat someone like froome 1 on 1.
Porte however has consistently shown he can follow froome for two years. I might forget a race but so think froome hasn't dropped Porte uphill since 2015 (when they were still teammates). Porte was the only rider capable of following froome on the Mont du Chat, he was the only one following him on any single mountain stage in the tour 2016. Without bad luck and crashes we can be pretty sure porte would have challanged froome in the last two years. With landa I'm not so sure about that
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Re: Re:

29 Dec 2017 16:21

HelloDolly wrote:
chiocciolis_calves wrote:In a peloton of mostly boring riders and a mostly boring, PC fandom, we're complaining about Landa's interviews in which he demonstrates some personality and spunk?



That is not personailty or spunk....that is just idle talk
He had opportunities to show spunk and he didnt ....he didnt at Astana and he didnt at SKY

Any rider can talk as if a champion....few can deliver

Froome, Contador, Roche, etc delivered when push came to shove

What has Landa done....talks as if someone needs to clear his way

At Movistar there will be a plan by managment ...and it will not be the Landa plan

But he does sound funny...with his proclamations


I don't see any difference between what Landa showed while riding in service of another and what Froome showed. The fact that Sky eventually went with Froome as their grand tour leader and Wiggins wilted and faded away has maybe tainted one's perspective. At what point did Froome wretch the leadership from Wiggins during his period of super domestique servitude? Contador and Roche's circumstance are far and away above Froome's in terms of defying their team because they knew they were the superior rider to the rival teammate.
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Re: Re:

29 Dec 2017 16:49

Alexandre B. wrote:
Netserk wrote:He has proved himself more in GTs than Porte has, yet the latter has a team build around him and is considered one of the favorites to win the Tour.

That said, Porte has a better palmarès than Landa when it comes to stage races. :p


...and Porte is in his thirties and Landa his twenties, approximately 4 year difference in age. Landa has a better palmares than Porte in the grand tours despite being 4 years his junior, if you're looking at final gc placements.
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Re: Re:

29 Dec 2017 17:07

Angliru wrote:
HelloDolly wrote:
chiocciolis_calves wrote:In a peloton of mostly boring riders and a mostly boring, PC fandom, we're complaining about Landa's interviews in which he demonstrates some personality and spunk?



That is not personailty or spunk....that is just idle talk
He had opportunities to show spunk and he didnt ....he didnt at Astana and he didnt at SKY

Any rider can talk as if a champion....few can deliver

Froome, Contador, Roche, etc delivered when push came to shove

What has Landa done....talks as if someone needs to clear his way

At Movistar there will be a plan by managment ...and it will not be the Landa plan

But he does sound funny...with his proclamations


I don't see any difference between what Landa showed while riding in service of another and what Froome showed. The fact that Sky eventually went with Froome as their grand tour leader and Wiggins wilted and faded away has maybe tainted one's perspective. At what point did Froome wretch the leadership from Wiggins during his period of super domestique servitude? Contador and Roche's circumstance are far and away above Froome's in terms of defying their team because they knew they were the superior rider to the rival teammate.


I think Froome took the leadership during the 2012 tour when it was clear he was the strongest rider and that he could have dropped Wiggins in the mountains. He could have probably won the overall, but he definitely would have wrecked Wiggins chances by attacking. He offered his continued support in exchange for all future leadership (and a lot of additional money according to some).

While Landa has looked exceptionally strong he has never quite been in this position.
monsieur_hulot
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Re: Re:

29 Dec 2017 17:38

monsieur_hulot wrote:
Angliru wrote:
HelloDolly wrote:
chiocciolis_calves wrote:In a peloton of mostly boring riders and a mostly boring, PC fandom, we're complaining about Landa's interviews in which he demonstrates some personality and spunk?



That is not personailty or spunk....that is just idle talk
He had opportunities to show spunk and he didnt ....he didnt at Astana and he didnt at SKY

Any rider can talk as if a champion....few can deliver

Froome, Contador, Roche, etc delivered when push came to shove

What has Landa done....talks as if someone needs to clear his way

At Movistar there will be a plan by managment ...and it will not be the Landa plan

But he does sound funny...with his proclamations


I don't see any difference between what Landa showed while riding in service of another and what Froome showed. The fact that Sky eventually went with Froome as their grand tour leader and Wiggins wilted and faded away has maybe tainted one's perspective. At what point did Froome wretch the leadership from Wiggins during his period of super domestique servitude? Contador and Roche's circumstance are far and away above Froome's in terms of defying their team because they knew they were the superior rider to the rival teammate.


I think Froome took the leadership during the 2012 tour when it was clear he was the strongest rider and that he could have dropped Wiggins in the mountains. He could have probably won the overall, but he definitely would have wrecked Wiggins chances by attacking. He offered his continued support in exchange for all future leadership (and a lot of additional money according to some).

While Landa has looked exceptionally strong he has never quite been in this position.


I thought we were talking about during that same race. The Roche circumstances are more similar to Froome's than Contador's. The difference I thought was being debated is who actually made the decision to ride for themselves, going against the team plans and eventually proved themselves correct by winning that particular Tour. Roche did. It could be argued that Contador did the same as Bruyneel was obviously backing Armstrong and was opposed to much of Contador's aggressive riding. In this vein if Froome were to have taken the lead from Roche and Contador, he would have been riding for himself throughout that fated Tour, not just on one or two stages.
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Re:

29 Dec 2017 19:49

HelloDolly wrote:As for finishing high as a team mate we have seen several examples of that in recent years

Kreuziger was 5th (and could have been higher) at the 2013 Tour while burying himself for Contador
Tejay was 4th at the 2012 Tour while working for Cadel Evans
Valverde 3rd riding for Quntana at 2015 Tour
Frank Schleck 3rd riding for Andy at 2011 Tour


Being on or near the podium while riding for another is nothig new but it certainly does not herald a GT winner
Afterall you are unmarked and do not carry the responsibility of leadership.. you can attack at times without being chased or gains seconds ..high places are common in these circumstances if a rider is in top form


At no point did any of those four riders you cite look like the strongest rider in the race. Landa did, particularly by the third week. Review the footage if you doubt me.

We have precious few examples of stronger support riders ignoring team orders and winning GTs (Roche, perhaps Cunego and Aitor Gonzalez) over the past 30 years. It's risky, even if you're headed away from the team after the season is over. If Landa had done that, he'd have been savaged. Pillaged if you do, pillaged if you don't.
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