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Thibaut Pinot discussion thread

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Re:

04 Jan 2018 15:07

Breh wrote:Zakarin made up time to Pinot in the 3rd week so I guess he was even stronger.

Some would say he wasn't a threat...

Week 3, Pinot and Zakarin were the stronger riders. No doubt.

@portugal11, yes, I had Tibopino second :) . that prediction was a year too early, that's all :p .
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04 Jan 2018 15:36

Pinot was only better than Nibali in one stage in the third week. Nibali made up time to everyone in the third week.
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Re: Re:

04 Jan 2018 16:31

Tonton wrote:
Breh wrote:Zakarin made up time to Pinot in the 3rd week so I guess he was even stronger.

Some would say he wasn't a threat...

Week 3, Pinot and Zakarin were the stronger riders. No doubt.

@portugal11, yes, I had Tibopino second :) . that prediction was a year too early, that's all :p .

Second? :D so are you saying he won't beat tom or aru? one of these guys will win
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Re: Re:

04 Jan 2018 17:03

portugal11 wrote:
Tonton wrote:
Breh wrote:Zakarin made up time to Pinot in the 3rd week so I guess he was even stronger.

Some would say he wasn't a threat...

Week 3, Pinot and Zakarin were the stronger riders. No doubt.

@portugal11, yes, I had Tibopino second :) . that prediction was a year too early, that's all :p .

Second? :D so are you saying he won't beat tom or aru? one of these guys will win



Well we don't even know if Pinot will start the Giro this year so...
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Re:

04 Jan 2018 17:40

Netserk wrote:Pinot was only better than Nibali in one stage in the third week. Nibali made up time to everyone in the third week.

Nibali was better stage 16 (Umbrail) and 21 (ITT) and that's how he got his podium. Pinot took time on Nibali stage 18, 19, and 20. The "free" minute that you mentioned was on stage 18. When Nibali and Quintana waited for Dumoulin to do the work...remember? Maybe they didn't have it...who knows. You can't have it both ways. After that, Pinot took time on stage 19, won stage 20. That's more than one day. That's three.

Rest-day management, regression in ITT, it has all been discussed. Still, a big success, back in the GT picture after two bad years. Encouraging.
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Re: Re:

05 Jan 2018 01:13

Tonton wrote:
Netserk wrote:Pinot was only better than Nibali in one stage in the third week. Nibali made up time to everyone in the third week.

Nibali was better stage 16 (Umbrail) and 21 (ITT) and that's how he got his podium. Pinot took time on Nibali stage 18, 19, and 20. The "free" minute that you mentioned was on stage 18. When Nibali and Quintana waited for Dumoulin to do the work...remember? Maybe they didn't have it...who knows. You can't have it both ways. After that, Pinot took time on stage 19, won stage 20. That's more than one day. That's three.

Rest-day management, regression in ITT, it has all been discussed. Still, a big success, back in the GT picture after two bad years. Encouraging.


The free minute was pretty obviously a gift. I just rewatched the end of the stage...Tom would chase Quintana and Nibali and let the Zakarin and Pinot make their move. Nibali and Quintana never cared about them as well and tried to drop Tom with an explosive move. When the lesser GC guys gaped the trio they looked at each other and did nothing. Non of them feared Pinot or Zakarin. Dumoulin started to accelerate on the last meters and tried to gain some seconds on Nairo and Nibali.
Pinot took a few seconds on stage 19 and gained bonus seconds in a sprint on stage 20.

In the 3rd week.
Stage 16: 1st Nibali, 3rd Quintana +0:12, Pinot +1:35
Stage 18: 3rd Pinot, Quintana and Nibali +0:58
Stage 19: Pinot, Quintana +0:12, Nibali +0:14
Stage 20: same time but Pinot finishes 1st, Nibali 3rd and Quintana without bonus seconds
Stage 21: Nibali, Quintana +0:30, Pinot +0:33

Overall this means for the 3rd week (if my calculations are correct):
Nibali
Quintana +0:52
Pinot +0:56

Zakarin actually was better than both Quintana and Pinot. with only +0:32 compared to Nibali.

I don`t like this reversed history. Pinot wasn`t the strongest rider in the 3rd week of this years Giro. He had some good stages but mostly depended on his good punch and sprinting ability compared to other GC riders to gain seconds. We can only speculate what happened to him on stage 16 but in the end the results are facts and rest days are a part of Grand Tours.
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Re: Thibaut Pinot discussion thread

06 Jan 2018 00:26

It's not revisionist history my friend. Stage 16 makes all the difference in the world. Otherwise, you see a very different picture. The "free" minute is when Dumoulin stated that he wished Quintana and Nibali would lose the podium, because they were not willing to do the work.

We can slice it and dice it all we want, but the fact is that Tibopino had a great Giro, fell a little short, but put up a fight. Got himself back in the GT picture. If we talk about free minutes, let's look at all the GTs and we'll see a bunch of riders earning a podium on a ninja move. That's racing.

Pinot beat Zakarin...fact. Was 4th...fact. Attacked in the end, unlike Nibali and Quintana, save the small episode on stage 20, then only Quintana (and Pinot of course) raced to keep a gap on Dumoulin.

Come on people :confused: .

I really don't get why Thibaut is not getting more love: when he gets sick, he suffers, doesn't get 20 puffs to keep going, he may not be the greatest, but the kid is an all-around good human being. A fantastic rider. Just entering his prime. You wait...
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Re: Thibaut Pinot discussion thread

06 Jan 2018 00:43

Tonton wrote:It's not revisionist history my friend. Stage 16 makes all the difference in the world. Otherwise, you see a very different picture. The "free" minute is when Dumoulin stated that he wished Quintana and Nibali would lose the podium, because they were not willing to do the work.

We can slice it and dice it all we want, but the fact is that Tibopino had a great Giro, fell a little short, but put up a fight. Got himself back in the GT picture. If we talk about free minutes, let's look at all the GTs and we'll see a bunch of riders earning a podium on a ninja move. That's racing.

Pinot beat Zakarin...fact. Was 4th...fact. Attacked in the end, unlike Nibali and Quintana, save the small episode on stage 20, then only Quintana (and Pinot of course) raced to keep a gap on Dumoulin.

Come on people :confused: .

I really don't get why Thibaut is not getting more love: when he gets sick, he suffers, doesn't get 20 puffs to keep going, he may not be the greatest, but the kid is an all-around good human being. A fantastic rider. Just entering his prime. You wait...

you should act like a mod, I was banned more than once due to clinic reasons. Give the example tonton.
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06 Jan 2018 00:44

When the talk is about strength and who the best was in the final week, for sure it matters that Pinot was gifted a minute and didn't show himself to be stronger than Nibali in that stage. In the end, a minute is a minute, but it doesn't make him stronger or better than he was. We only put him down after you put him too high up ;)
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Re: Thibaut Pinot discussion thread

06 Jan 2018 04:13

Tonton wrote:It's not revisionist history my friend. Stage 16 makes all the difference in the world. Otherwise, you see a very different picture. The "free" minute is when Dumoulin stated that he wished Quintana and Nibali would lose the podium, because they were not willing to do the work.

We can slice it and dice it all we want, but the fact is that Tibopino had a great Giro, fell a little short, but put up a fight. Got himself back in the GT picture. If we talk about free minutes, let's look at all the GTs and we'll see a bunch of riders earning a podium on a ninja move. That's racing.

Pinot beat Zakarin...fact. Was 4th...fact. Attacked in the end, unlike Nibali and Quintana, save the small episode on stage 20, then only Quintana (and Pinot of course) raced to keep a gap on Dumoulin.

Come on people :confused: .

I really don't get why Thibaut is not getting more love: when he gets sick, he suffers, doesn't get 20 puffs to keep going, he may not be the greatest, but the kid is an all-around good human being. A fantastic rider. Just entering his prime. You wait...


I don't think anyone denies that Pinot had a very good Giro and if his TT was better would have made the podium. I think he will be in the mix at the Tour with many other riders and if Nibali and Quintana turn up at the Tour in the same form as at the Giro the race could be very open especially with Aru, Landa, Chaves,Froome and Dumoulin slated for the Giro. Could be the most open Tour for years.
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Re: Thibaut Pinot discussion thread

06 Jan 2018 12:26

Tonton wrote:BS if you ask me. Pinot was seconds away from a podium, Bardet one second away from losing his, that's about the same. With the amount of ITT in the Giro, Bardet would have been 5th or 6th at best.

Regardless, I like Bardet too, but besides Froome and Dumoulin, possibly Quintana and Nibali, I take PInot over the rest. The double is a bad idea, Madiot says one thing then another, we'll see. One year ago, you were all burying Tibopino. Read this thread. His Giro was great, the days after rest day weren't, it cost him the podium and maybe more.

Same time next year (and probably every year after that with portugal11 :) ), we'll circle back. I'm confident.

His Giro wasn't great. He was aiming for a podium and failed. Look, I like Pinot (except for the fact that he looks awful on his bike). He's a good rider and he's a fighter. But he's just not among the absolute best GT riders and no shame in that (I'd probably rate him somewhere between 7th to 10th depending on whether you look at chances of winning or consistency). I'm sure we'll see him fight for the podium and many more GT's to come but I wouldn't put my money on him ever winning one.
Last edited by Hugo Koblet on 06 Jan 2018 17:08, edited 1 time in total.
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06 Jan 2018 14:13

Something like this? Not easy to place Landa and Porte...

Froome
Dumoulin
Quintana
Nibali
Bardet
Valverde
Porte
Landa
Aru
Uran
Pinot
Zakarin

Whoops, after I originally forgot Aru ( :o ) Pinot has been dumped out of the top-10! :eek:

edit: And Chaves as well, lol. I'd have him ahead of Pinot as well.
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06 Jan 2018 14:32

I would rank Zakarin higher than Pinot. He is super consistent and I think is as good as Pinot when Pinot is riding up to his normal level. Chaves also, but I think Pinot is better than Rigo

So thats 12th?
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06 Jan 2018 14:36

Fair point, it's not easy though to account for different routes, consistency vs. peak, and weighting their recent GT performances after how far back they were and how ideal their preparation was. So it's just a quick list to give an idea of where Pinot ranks.

It feels a bit weird to have Uran so low when he was 2nd in the Tour, but he didn't really impress. I'm not sure Pinot could have managed that, even if he had no (really) bad days, no bad luck and was in his peak condition for the Tour last year.
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06 Jan 2018 14:39

There really isn't a big difference between Bardet, Valv, Porte, Landa, Aru, Zaka, Pinot, Chaves, Rigo etc. But yeah, depends on a lot of different things, but Im just not sold on Rigo, even though his Tour was super impressive.
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06 Jan 2018 14:44

Still, I think Pinot is definitely in the light end of that group. As long as that is the case, going for the Tour GC makes no sense, as he would have to be quite lucky to contend for the podium, and most likely wouldn't make the top-5. I guess we'll see if he skips the Giro though :p
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06 Jan 2018 14:51

Valverde wouldn’t do as well as Pinot in any GT now.
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Re:

06 Jan 2018 15:04

Jspear wrote:Valverde wouldn’t do as well as Pinot in any GT now.


How do you conclude that? The guy was smashing the entire peloton over and over and over last spring like never before. Why assume that his abilities in a Grand Tour would have gone in the other direction?


Regarding the ranking of the GT riders:
I would rank Porte higher up that list. He is a potential Tour winner - you can't say many others on that list are. And you can't discount him just because his best GT result is fifth. You have to take into consideration how strong he is and if he one day manages to not have any misfortune, I think he can take a Tour win. But he turns 33 this year and it's unlikely that he will make it through unscathed this July, so the time is ticking and he may very well never win. But if we were to have a normal Tour right now, he'd be my favourite (with the current situation sidelining Froome).
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Re:

06 Jan 2018 15:51

Netserk wrote:Something like this? Not easy to place Landa and Porte...

Froome
Dumoulin
Quintana
Nibali
Bardet
Valverde
Porte
Landa
Aru
Uran
Pinot
Zakarin

Whoops, after I originally forgot Aru ( :o ) Pinot has been dumped out of the top-10! :eek:

edit: And Chaves as well, lol. I'd have him ahead of Pinot as well.


Interesting, but I would divide the contenders in 3 groups:
______________
Froome (As Pure Sky_Bot I unfortunately must hope he is out):
______________
Quintana
Dumoulin
Porte
Landa
Nibali
______________
Aru
Bardet
Uran
Poels
Keldermann
Zakarin
Kruijswijk
GT
Valverde
Pinot
The BraveHeart Hero R. Majka
Michał K.
Chaves
MA Lopez
A. Yates
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Re: Re:

06 Jan 2018 15:57

tobydawq wrote:
Jspear wrote:Valverde wouldn’t do as well as Pinot in any GT now.


How do you conclude that? The guy was smashing the entire peloton over and over and over last spring like never before. Why assume that his abilities in a Grand Tour would have gone in the other direction?


Regarding the ranking of the GT riders:
I would rank Porte higher up that list. He is a potential Tour winner - you can't say many others on that list are. And you can't discount him just because his best GT result is fifth. You have to take into consideration how strong he is and if he one day manages to not have any misfortune, I think he can take a Tour win. But he turns 33 this year and it's unlikely that he will make it through unscathed this July, so the time is ticking and he may very well never win. But if we were to have a normal Tour right now, he'd be my favourite (with the current situation sidelining Froome).

If Grand Tours were to be a pure show of physical strength, then Porte would be higher. Unfortunately for him, it's more than that.
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