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The Caleb Ewan vs. Fernando Gaviria Thread

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Re: Re:

14 May 2017 10:08

dirkprovin wrote:
The Hegelian wrote:Well earlier in the season in the mid-east, Ewan was = with the big three. Won one, could have won two.

And of course we all say 'jeez, he's super quick now, but okay, let's wait until a GT when everyone is in form.'

Okay - well it is a GT, in the heart of season and I think both Gaviria and Ewan are/were going a touch quicker than Greipal. Could be that the Gorilla has a lost a tiny bit of top end speed, but more plausible that the two young guns have arrived. Interesting to note Bennett and Groenewegen knocking on the door too.

I'd agree that on a tdf early flat stage, Kittel is still favourite. But the other four are even in my book.

So I'd go:
Kittel
Cav, Gav, Ewan, Greipal
Sagan, Bouhanni, Demare, Bennett, Groenewegen, Vivianni, Degenkolb, Kristoff.


With due respect, when are we realistically going to have the opportunity to see all of them head to head ? QS aren't going to send both Kittel & Gav to the TDF; ORS sure as hell aren't sending Ewan; maybe 3/4 of those listed may go but maybe not. How well supported they may be is also pivotal

In any case, any such ranking hinges around the specific terms of reference you choose to set. A pure flat sprint may have one outcome; just tweak it a little and its somewhat different; ask "who is/are the most competitive over the widest variety of finishes and most likely your outcome is turned on its head.


1. Sure, it ain't going to happen this year. It may never happen. If it does, the passing of time may mean some decline and some progress. Nonetheless, we can still have opinions on who are the elite bunch sprinters in the now of any given epoch.
2. Such things are just opinions on a bike forum. Is it speculative? Of course! What else could it be? The rankings hinge on many variables and there is nothing remotely well established about it. What is well established is the claim that both Gav and Ewan have stepped up a notch this year. What we make of that is up to our imaginations.
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19 May 2017 15:28

Please tell me, after today's sprint, how overrated this 22 year old is again?
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19 May 2017 15:28

Honestly there really isn't any contest. Not only has Gaviria better top-speed, but is also way more versatile. Not trying to diminish Ewan here, but Gaviria has Sagan-esque potential while Ewan just is fast, pure sprinter who on his day can mix it up with the best.
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Re:

19 May 2017 16:28

Valv.Piti wrote:Honestly there really isn't any contest. Not only has Gaviria better top-speed, but is also way more versatile. Not trying to diminish Ewan here, but Gaviria has Sagan-esque potential while Ewan just is fast, pure sprinter who on his day can mix it up with the best.

I agree... it's almost like the sagan vs EBH thread...
Gaviria is clearly two steps above ewan
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Re:

19 May 2017 16:29

Valv.Piti wrote:Honestly there really isn't any contest. Not only has Gaviria better top-speed, but is also way more versatile. Not trying to diminish Ewan here, but Gaviria has Sagan-esque potential while Ewan just is fast, pure sprinter who on his day can mix it up with the best.


"on his day" I think should be changed to "when he's set up correctly". He doesn't seem to be able to surf the wheels the way McEwen used to.
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Re: Re:

19 May 2017 16:40

portugal11 wrote:
Valv.Piti wrote:Honestly there really isn't any contest. Not only has Gaviria better top-speed, but is also way more versatile. Not trying to diminish Ewan here, but Gaviria has Sagan-esque potential while Ewan just is fast, pure sprinter who on his day can mix it up with the best.

I agree... it's almost like the sagan vs EBH thread...
Gaviria is clearly two steps above ewan


of Cav vs Tyler Farrar
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Re: Re:

19 May 2017 16:43

gospina wrote:
portugal11 wrote:
Valv.Piti wrote:Honestly there really isn't any contest. Not only has Gaviria better top-speed, but is also way more versatile. Not trying to diminish Ewan here, but Gaviria has Sagan-esque potential while Ewan just is fast, pure sprinter who on his day can mix it up with the best.

I agree... it's almost like the sagan vs EBH thread...
Gaviria is clearly two steps above ewan


of Cav vs Tyler Farrar


I sure Ewan will prove to be a better sprinter than Farrar.
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Re: Re:

19 May 2017 17:01

Jspear wrote:
Valv.Piti wrote:Honestly there really isn't any contest. Not only has Gaviria better top-speed, but is also way more versatile. Not trying to diminish Ewan here, but Gaviria has Sagan-esque potential while Ewan just is fast, pure sprinter who on his day can mix it up with the best.


"on his day" I think should be changed to "when he's set up correctly". He doesn't seem to be able to surf the wheels the way McEwen used to.


He hasn't the strength of McEwan nor the capacity to handle the biff and barge (he always comes off second best) that's part and parcel of bunch sprinting. Essentially, he has one core asset in that he is very fast if given clear air but he needs to be "set up right" for that to happen. For THAT to happen, he will almost certainly need to find a new team as Orica is now gearing themselves far more to GC at GTs and this Giro has shown them that a divided effort = burning out a lot of riders too early.

At this point in time, it is quite clear that whilst Gaviria has been in a position of being the main man for his team with regards support; he is clearly the stronger and has a much wider skill set. Ewan at this point looks very much a one trick pony
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19 May 2017 19:19

Ewan would be better advised to avoid the PR Spin and stop making excuses - Had every chance in the last two stages.
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19 May 2017 19:40

I wondered if this thread might be closed by now.
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Re:

19 May 2017 20:18

yaco wrote:Ewan would be better advised to avoid the PR Spin and stop making excuses - Had every chance in the last two stages.


Apparently he broke a spoke 400 meters from the finish yesterday. That seems like a genuine reason to not be in the finale. I haven't listened to any interviews today to see if he was making an excuse.
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Re:

19 May 2017 20:32

yaco wrote:Ewan would be better advised to avoid the PR Spin and stop making excuses - Had every chance in the last two stages.
Interesting little exchange with Edmonson after stage 12. A little bite by Alex, a little bark back from Ewan, I think they put up an earlier version before editing that video as well (as always, a reminder that for all the PR those videos are really fun and illuminating).

He seemed to have canned the excuses this time around, though. Maybe Whitey didn't want to leave the impression that they're whining all the time after blowing his fuse a little too dramatically on the Blockhaus. In any case the little guy won a stage in the Giro d'Italia just last week. That ain't nothing either. He can bow out with his held high if he so desires.
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Re:

19 May 2017 20:32

Mr.White wrote:Ewan is faster of the two, but Gaviria is way more complete


Correction, Gaviria is faster and way more complete. No contest it seems...
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Re: Re:

19 May 2017 22:16

Jspear wrote:
Valv.Piti wrote:Honestly there really isn't any contest. Not only has Gaviria better top-speed, but is also way more versatile. Not trying to diminish Ewan here, but Gaviria has Sagan-esque potential while Ewan just is fast, pure sprinter who on his day can mix it up with the best.


"on his day" I think should be changed to "when he's set up correctly". He doesn't seem to be able to surf the wheels the way McEwen used to.


McEwen got better at that, it didn't happen straight away. The best is yet to come for Ewan.
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Re: Re:

20 May 2017 03:28

Mr.White wrote:
Mr.White wrote:Ewan is faster of the two, but Gaviria is way more complete


Correction, Gaviria is faster and way more complete. No contest it seems...

I like Gaviria but no way to know about the "faster" part from anything we've seen here. He's without a doubt more complete. And has a much better and more versatile team to support him.
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Re: Re:

20 May 2017 07:17

movingtarget wrote:
Jspear wrote:
Valv.Piti wrote:Honestly there really isn't any contest. Not only has Gaviria better top-speed, but is also way more versatile. Not trying to diminish Ewan here, but Gaviria has Sagan-esque potential while Ewan just is fast, pure sprinter who on his day can mix it up with the best.


"on his day" I think should be changed to "when he's set up correctly". He doesn't seem to be able to surf the wheels the way McEwen used to.


McEwen got better at that, it didn't happen straight away. The best is yet to come for Ewan.

Ewan is even smaller than McEwen. He got knocked off the wheel by Richeze and never recovered from there. He's starting to look like he might not have the physical presence to truly contend aggressive bunch sprints when everyone is getting desperate towards the end of a GT.

McEwan may have only been slightly bigger than Ewan's 161cm, but he was also batsh!t crazy in a sprint and everyone knew it. Even when it was the likes of Zabel, Steels, Boonen, O'Grady, Brown, Cav - anyone - they all knew that you didn't f@ck with McEwen.

Orica really missed a trick not sending Kluge or Docker to the Giro. Mezgec is a good rider who hasn't done anything wrong, but he doesn't have the same size and presence. When Ewan won his Vuelta stage in 2015, Docker had to almost barge Sagan off his bike two or three times to keep Ewan in position, I don't see Mezgec doing that.

This is where Gaviria destroys Ewan.
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Re: Re:

20 May 2017 10:24

42x16ss wrote:
movingtarget wrote:
Jspear wrote:
Valv.Piti wrote:Honestly there really isn't any contest. Not only has Gaviria better top-speed, but is also way more versatile. Not trying to diminish Ewan here, but Gaviria has Sagan-esque potential while Ewan just is fast, pure sprinter who on his day can mix it up with the best.


"on his day" I think should be changed to "when he's set up correctly". He doesn't seem to be able to surf the wheels the way McEwen used to.


McEwen got better at that, it didn't happen straight away. The best is yet to come for Ewan.

Ewan is even smaller than McEwen. He got knocked off the wheel by Richeze and never recovered from there. He's starting to look like he might not have the physical presence to truly contend aggressive bunch sprints when everyone is getting desperate towards the end of a GT.

McEwan may have only been slightly bigger than Ewan's 161cm, but he was also batsh!t crazy in a sprint and everyone knew it. Even when it was the likes of Zabel, Steels, Boonen, O'Grady, Brown, Cav - anyone - they all knew that you didn't f@ck with McEwen.

Orica really missed a trick not sending Kluge or Docker to the Giro. Mezgec is a good rider who hasn't done anything wrong, but he doesn't have the same size and presence. When Ewan won his Vuelta stage in 2015, Docker had to almost barge Sagan off his bike two or three times to keep Ewan in position, I don't see Mezgec doing that.

This is where Gaviria destroys Ewan.


McEwan is a couple of inches taller than Ewan and much bigger. He really bulked up in the second half of his career. Ewan is tiny by any standards, short and compact. Armstrong called McEwen the Angry Ant once, when they had some sort of disagreement on the road. Cavendish is also a much bigger build than Ewan. Ewan will have to add some muscle otherwise he's going to get bounced around in the GT sprints. In the smaller races the gaps open up more. Ewan seems more like Greipel, a pretty mild character while Cavendish has a touch of the McEwen in him and doesn't mind some aggressive sprinting tactics. It always helped Cavendish when Renshaw was in front of him. That guy was fearless in the last 500 metres.
Last edited by movingtarget on 20 May 2017 13:59, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Re:

20 May 2017 10:46

movingtarget wrote:McEwan is a couple of inches taller than Ewan and much bigger. He really bulked up in the second half of his career. Ewan is tiny by any standards, short and compact. Armstrong called McEwen the Angry Ant once, when they had some sort of disagreement on the road. Cavendish is also a much bigger build than Ewan. Ewan will have to add some muscle otherwise he's going to get bounced around in the GT sprints. In the smaller races the gaps open up more. Ewan seems more like Greipel, a pretty mild character while Cavendish has a touch of the McEwen in him and doesn't mind some aggressive sprinting tactics. It always helped Cavendish when Renshaw in front of him. That guy was fearless in the last 500 metres.


Agree with that summation, think there's about 5kgs difference between McEwen/Ewan's "advertised weights". Ewan HAS actually appeared to have bulked up some but, barring methods nefarious, he's most likely to always be on the losing side of the ledger in most physical clashes (legitimate or otherwise? Agree re attitude, McEwen was just willing to get down n dirty with the best of them to add to the tactical savvy that he acquired over time

42x16ss wrote:
movingtarget wrote:Orica really missed a trick not sending Kluge or Docker to the Giro. Mezgec is a good rider who hasn't done anything wrong, but he doesn't have the same size and presence. When Ewan won his Vuelta stage in 2015, Docker had to almost barge Sagan off his bike two or three times to keep Ewan in position, I don't see Mezgec doing that.

This is where Gaviria destroys Ewan.


Fair points but far from the full difference. Gaviria's greater track experience probably also counts in his favour both with regards to strength/endurance plus handling pack racing. The guy has simply a lot more in his skills set than Ewan

As regards Orica's selections, Kluge was ill and off the bike in April so he may've been significantly down on race miles. Also some suggestions, if his Twitter is anything to go by, that he may not currently be a happy camper. His size would most certainly have been beneficial in some cases but I also think that people were over-reading the early season results of the Ewan/Kluge combination; Ewan was losing Kluge's wheel as often as he was following it but was able to get away with it due to early season and Ewan's superior condition to his competition.

Docker ... fair call indeed; not sure what's the story

I just don't see Orica, going forward, ever giving Ewan the full lead-out train that he realisitically needs if he is going to compete at anywhere near "par" at GTs and almost certainly, rightly so. Therefore, if Ewan and his manager aren't already shopping around, then they oughta be
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Re: Re:

20 May 2017 16:15

42x16ss wrote:
movingtarget wrote:
Jspear wrote:
Valv.Piti wrote:Honestly there really isn't any contest. Not only has Gaviria better top-speed, but is also way more versatile. Not trying to diminish Ewan here, but Gaviria has Sagan-esque potential while Ewan just is fast, pure sprinter who on his day can mix it up with the best.


"on his day" I think should be changed to "when he's set up correctly". He doesn't seem to be able to surf the wheels the way McEwen used to.


McEwen got better at that, it didn't happen straight away. The best is yet to come for Ewan.

Ewan is even smaller than McEwen. He got knocked off the wheel by Richeze and never recovered from there. He's starting to look like he might not have the physical presence to truly contend aggressive bunch sprints when everyone is getting desperate towards the end of a GT.

McEwan may have only been slightly bigger than Ewan's 161cm, but he was also batsh!t crazy in a sprint and everyone knew it. Even when it was the likes of Zabel, Steels, Boonen, O'Grady, Brown, Cav - anyone - they all knew that you didn't f@ck with McEwen.

Orica really missed a trick not sending Kluge or Docker to the Giro. Mezgec is a good rider who hasn't done anything wrong, but he doesn't have the same size and presence. When Ewan won his Vuelta stage in 2015, Docker had to almost barge Sagan off his bike two or three times to keep Ewan in position, I don't see Mezgec doing that.

This is where Gaviria destroys Ewan.


Nailed it - Kluge is am imposing figure in a finish, is super fast and his big frame protects Ewan - It was a strange decision.
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20 May 2017 16:22

Anyway it was good to see Ewan controlling the peleton today - There are another one or two chances for Ewan or Edmondson to do the same in the last 6 weeks - Anyway Kluge is racing Norway and seems to be the first rider in the sprint train - Gerrans is third only a few seconds behind in GC and must have a chance in tomorrow's last stage - Power is showing good forrm.
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