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U23 races and talents

A place to discuss all things related to current professional road races. Here, you can also touch on the latest news relating to professional road racing. A doping discussion free forum.

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Re: Re:

18 Sep 2017 19:31

DNP-Old wrote:
GenericBoonenFan wrote:Your statements are absolutely ridiculous and btw Nobody in his right mind would ever think that Bo Hagen (or any other rider) could level with Merckx or Coppi. Times have changed and so have racing tactics.

Hagen being the next Merckx wasn't exactly the point. The point being made was Hagen being an extremely talented rider who hasn't done anything to remotely fulfil his potential. He was expected to be a multi monument winner and he hasn't come close. The biggest victory of his life is what, an Eneco Tour, Gent - Wevelgem?

Whether I named him the next Merckx or the next Mathieu Perget doesn't really matter or change the point.


Wow your salty. What is yout problem with scandanavian riders? Some of them are some of the best riders in the world. EBH, Fulgsang, Kristtof, Valgren etc, well except sweden, they suck
Frankschleck
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Re:

18 Sep 2017 19:31



This is in NOrway, in Bergen.. Leknessund will win with more than 2 minutes.. Easy. He is the favourite also ..
Monte
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Re: Re:

18 Sep 2017 19:33

Indeed and if it wasnt for Sagan, Hagen would be a World Champion and double his wins.. Its just Sagan and Hagen has same rider skills..

IN Cycling nobody remembers the second guy..
Monte
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Re: Re:

18 Sep 2017 19:37

Monte wrote:Indeed and if it wasnt for Sagan, Hagen would be a World Champion and double his wins.. Its just Sagan and Hagen has same rider skills..

Yeah, only difference is Sagan is a world class rider while Hagen is a 2nd rate sprinter and a 2nd rate classics rider.
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Re: Re:

18 Sep 2017 19:41

Frankschleck wrote:
DNP-Old wrote:
GenericBoonenFan wrote:Your statements are absolutely ridiculous and btw Nobody in his right mind would ever think that Bo Hagen (or any other rider) could level with Merckx or Coppi. Times have changed and so have racing tactics.

Hagen being the next Merckx wasn't exactly the point. The point being made was Hagen being an extremely talented rider who hasn't done anything to remotely fulfil his potential. He was expected to be a multi monument winner and he hasn't come close. The biggest victory of his life is what, an Eneco Tour, Gent - Wevelgem?

Whether I named him the next Merckx or the next Mathieu Perget doesn't really matter or change the point.


Wow your salty. What is yout problem with scandanavian riders? Some of them are some of the best riders in the world. EBH, Fulgsang, Kristtof, Valgren etc, well except sweden, they suck


He's got a point. It has been continually baffling in Denmark how often the u23 talents burn out or just quit for whatever reason. Denmark has produced dominating talents for a number of years now and they just seem to fizzle out when going pro if they even go pro in the first place. You could add Thomas Vedel Kvist and Andre Steensen to the above list. Compare that to the dutch, who actually seem to deliver in the long run.
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Re: Re:

18 Sep 2017 19:41

Frankschleck wrote:
DNP-Old wrote:
GenericBoonenFan wrote:Your statements are absolutely ridiculous and btw Nobody in his right mind would ever think that Bo Hagen (or any other rider) could level with Merckx or Coppi. Times have changed and so have racing tactics.

Hagen being the next Merckx wasn't exactly the point. The point being made was Hagen being an extremely talented rider who hasn't done anything to remotely fulfil his potential. He was expected to be a multi monument winner and he hasn't come close. The biggest victory of his life is what, an Eneco Tour, Gent - Wevelgem?

Whether I named him the next Merckx or the next Mathieu Perget doesn't really matter or change the point.


Wow your salty. What is yout problem with scandanavian riders? Some of them are some of the best riders in the world. EBH, Fulgsang, Kristtof, Valgren etc, well except sweden, they suck

Why does everyone immediately play the hatred/salty card? That's some BS.

I must have missed Fuglsang or Valgren bloody Anderson being one of the best riders in the world, but whatever.


Regarding Kristoff, he doesn't come close to fitting the glove, as he has been one of the exceptions who wasn't insanely dominant at the youth ranks, but steadily build himself up to being elite.

To get to the point: if you would have read any of my posts, my problem with Scandinavian riders is clear: they dominate the U23 and U19 races (names, examples, whatever have also been given), and then proceed to show absolutely nothing in the professional level. I would have said the same if this occurred with riders from Japan, Argentina or even Uganda of all places.
Last edited by DNP-Old on 18 Sep 2017 19:42, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Re:

18 Sep 2017 19:42

classicomano wrote:
Monte wrote:Indeed and if it wasnt for Sagan, Hagen would be a World Champion and double his wins.. Its just Sagan and Hagen has same rider skills..

Yeah, only difference is Sagan is a world class rider while Hagen is a 2nd rate sprinter and a 2nd rate classics rider.


EBH is a world class rider. Sagan is just unbelieveabley good
Frankschleck
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Re: Re:

18 Sep 2017 19:46

Frankschleck wrote:
classicomano wrote:
Monte wrote:Indeed and if it wasnt for Sagan, Hagen would be a World Champion and double his wins.. Its just Sagan and Hagen has same rider skills..

Yeah, only difference is Sagan is a world class rider while Hagen is a 2nd rate sprinter and a 2nd rate classics rider.


EBH is a world class rider. Sagan is just unbelieveabley good

You must have an immensely broad understanding of what "world class" is then.
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Re: Re:

18 Sep 2017 19:47

DNP-Old wrote:
Frankschleck wrote:
DNP-Old wrote:
GenericBoonenFan wrote:Your statements are absolutely ridiculous and btw Nobody in his right mind would ever think that Bo Hagen (or any other rider) could level with Merckx or Coppi. Times have changed and so have racing tactics.

Hagen being the next Merckx wasn't exactly the point. The point being made was Hagen being an extremely talented rider who hasn't done anything to remotely fulfil his potential. He was expected to be a multi monument winner and he hasn't come close. The biggest victory of his life is what, an Eneco Tour, Gent - Wevelgem?

Whether I named him the next Merckx or the next Mathieu Perget doesn't really matter or change the point.


Wow your salty. What is yout problem with scandanavian riders? Some of them are some of the best riders in the world. EBH, Fulgsang, Kristtof, Valgren etc, well except sweden, they suck

Why does everyone immediately play the hatred/salty card? That's some BS.

I must have missed Fuglsang or Valgren bloody Anderson being one of the best riders in the world, but whatever.


Regarding Kristoff, he doesn't come close to fitting the glove, as he has been one of the exceptions who wasn't insanely dominant at the youth ranks, but steadily build himself up to being elite.

To get to the point: if you would have read any of my posts, my problem with Scandinavian riders is clear: they dominate the U23 and U19 races (names, examples, whatever have also been given), and then proceed to show absolutely nothing in the professional level. I would have said the same if this occurred with riders from Japan, Argentina or even Uganda of all places.



Valgren was bad example, but fuglsang is a world class rider. Won the dauphine and silver at olympics. Sorry if i was to agressive, just curios :)Just don't get why you wrote they shouldn't be aloud to ride, its not their fault that they peak so early.
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18 Sep 2017 19:51

Yeah, I'm a bit curious about the whole they should be banned from the U23 ranks thing too. How would that help them have more success as pros?
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Re: Re:

18 Sep 2017 19:52

classicomano wrote:
Frankschleck wrote:
classicomano wrote:
Monte wrote:Indeed and if it wasnt for Sagan, Hagen would be a World Champion and double his wins.. Its just Sagan and Hagen has same rider skills..

Yeah, only difference is Sagan is a world class rider while Hagen is a 2nd rate sprinter and a 2nd rate classics rider.


EBH is a world class rider. Sagan is just unbelieveabley good

You must have an immensely broad understanding of what "world class" is then.


If you are one of the favorites for a wc, i consider you world class, same if you have won over 50 bike races, where 20 of them are worldtour. Also if you are a good rider on most terrain, and can be in the sky train. Then you are a world class rider ;)
Frankschleck
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Re: Re:

18 Sep 2017 20:02

Frankschleck wrote:
classicomano wrote:
Frankschleck wrote:
classicomano wrote:
Monte wrote:Indeed and if it wasnt for Sagan, Hagen would be a World Champion and double his wins.. Its just Sagan and Hagen has same rider skills..

Yeah, only difference is Sagan is a world class rider while Hagen is a 2nd rate sprinter and a 2nd rate classics rider.


EBH is a world class rider. Sagan is just unbelieveabley good

You must have an immensely broad understanding of what "world class" is then.


If you are one of the favorites for a wc, i consider you world class, same if you have won over 50 bike races, where 20 of them are worldtour. Also if you are a good rider on most terrain, and can be in the sky train. Then you are a world class rider ;)

Maybe, once. Last few years the only thing hes world class in is winning his home races no one else cares about like the "Tour Des Fjords".

Which is how we get back to the original point, underachieving Scandi's. If had Eddy kept progressing the way he did in his early years at HTC he would've won a truck load of monuments already. He stagnated, at about age 23, which is already a big win for a talented Scandi. They usually fade back into obscurity after a few years.
User avatar classicomano
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18 Sep 2017 20:04

I don't find it especially surprising that Denmark and Norway produces a lot of good talents. Nor do I find it surprising that they are not as dominant at senior levels. Cycling has had a boost in popularity. Norway has always done well in some endurance sports but cycling was a marginal sport before it became a popular sport about 10 years ago. In Denmark it has been popular for a long time. However a pro career usually means moving and fitting in to new cultures, languages etc. Not everyone are cut out to handle the move and change in environments.

Oskar Svensson, maybe one of the greatest talents we've seen in a long time, didn't even want to try it out. Making it in the pro ranks demands a lot of sacrifice. And maybe even more so for some of the Scandinavian riders who has easy access to education and other opportunities.
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Re: Re:

18 Sep 2017 20:15

classicomano wrote:
Monte wrote:Indeed and if it wasnt for Sagan, Hagen would be a World Champion and double his wins.. Its just Sagan and Hagen has same rider skills..
Yeah, only difference is Sagan is a world class rider while Hagen is a 2nd rate sprinter and a 2nd rate classics rider.
How many are world-class?
AQETUYIOI
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Re: Re:

18 Sep 2017 20:20

[/quote]
Yeah, only difference is Sagan is a world class rider while Hagen is a 2nd rate sprinter and a 2nd rate classics rider.[/quote]

EBH is a world class rider. Sagan is just unbelieveabley good[/quote]
You must have an immensely broad understanding of what "world class" is then.[/quote]

If you are one of the favorites for a wc, i consider you world class, same if you have won over 50 bike races, where 20 of them are worldtour. Also if you are a good rider on most terrain, and can be in the sky train. Then you are a world class rider ;)[/quote]
Maybe, once. Last few years the only thing hes world class in is winning his home races no one else cares about like the "Tour Des Fjords".

Which is how we get back to the original point, underachieving Scandi's. If had Eddy kept progressing the way he did in his early years at HTC he would've won a truck load of monuments already. He stagnated, at about age 23, which is already a big win for a talented Scandi. They usually fade back into obscurity after a few years.[/quote]

Eddy is just one case. I wouldn't say Hushovd or Kristoff faded past 23, they definitely improved their skills over the years. Kristoff didn't even start winning at top level before he was past 24. It all depends on what type of riders they are and what potential they have to develop on the highest levels. I agree that Boasson Hagens potential might be greater than what he has actually achieved, but Eddy also had some issues with his diets. If you are aiming for world dominance you need all marginal gains. It's not like it's easy, even for guys like him.
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Re:

18 Sep 2017 20:30

Norbea wrote:I don't find it especially surprising that Denmark and Norway produces a lot of good talents. Nor do I find it surprising that they are not as dominant at senior levels. Cycling has had a boost in popularity. Norway has always done well in some endurance sports but cycling was a marginal sport before it became a popular sport about 10 years ago. In Denmark it has been popular for a long time. However a pro career usually means moving and fitting in to new cultures, languages etc. Not everyone are cut out to handle the move and change in environments.

Oskar Svensson, maybe one of the greatest talents we've seen in a long time, didn't even want to try it out. Making it in the pro ranks demands a lot of sacrifice. And maybe even more so for some of the Scandinavian riders who has easy access to education and other opportunities.


That can hardly be the reason, even though it seems to me that the danish riders in the 80/90s were a bit more adventurous and not afraid to go away on your own. But it is not like the rest of Europe are total backwater country compared to Scandinavia regarding alternative opportunities. And the dutch do reasonably well in the pro ranks. Even the UK are producing better riders nowadays.

Norway is an outlier, though, as, as you noted, it is a fairly new sport which owes much of its popularity to Thor Hushovd.
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Re: Re:

18 Sep 2017 20:41

el chava wrote:
Norbea wrote:I don't find it especially surprising that Denmark and Norway produces a lot of good talents. Nor do I find it surprising that they are not as dominant at senior levels. Cycling has had a boost in popularity. Norway has always done well in some endurance sports but cycling was a marginal sport before it became a popular sport about 10 years ago. In Denmark it has been popular for a long time. However a pro career usually means moving and fitting in to new cultures, languages etc. Not everyone are cut out to handle the move and change in environments.

Oskar Svensson, maybe one of the greatest talents we've seen in a long time, didn't even want to try it out. Making it in the pro ranks demands a lot of sacrifice. And maybe even more so for some of the Scandinavian riders who has easy access to education and other opportunities.


That can hardly be the reason, even though it seems to me that the danish riders in the 80/90s were a bit more adventurous and not afraid to go away on your own. But it is not like the rest of Europe are total backwater country compared to Scandinavia regarding alternative opportunities. And the dutch do reasonably well in the pro ranks. Even the UK are producing better riders nowadays.

Norway is an outlier, though, as, as you noted, it is a fairly new sport which owes much of its popularity to Thor Hushovd.



Nah we owe our success to Olympiatoppen and cross country skiing that get millions of dollars every year to be the best in cardiac sport (we are the best winter olympic nation ever), second is Dag Otto Lauritzen with his personality, then Thor HUshovd winning U23 and then Kurt Asle Winning U23-- Then Thor Winning Words in Ganong.. And not to forget TV2.no for investing so much money on the sport; media matters! . Denmark has always been good in Cycling; Norway havent.

And also Norwegian fans, they are everywhere..!!

Slam dunk!
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Re: Re:

19 Sep 2017 13:08

Monte wrote:


This is in NOrway, in Bergen.. Leknessund will win with more than 2 minutes.. Easy. He is the favourite also ..


Looks like neither of us was right.




(Johansen still beat Leknessund, though.)
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19 Sep 2017 16:22

Denmark produces about as many decent pros as you'd expect from a small country with a reasonably strong cycling tradition. The weird thing is how many superkids they produce.
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28 Sep 2017 15:37

Jasper Philipsen says his season is about to end and he has yet to sign with a team for 2018, but he will remain at U23 level indefinitely: https://u23cyclingzone.wordpress.com/2017/09/28/get-to-know-jasper-philipsen/

Also, Max Kanter, 7th in Bergen RR, remains U23 with Sunweb despite doing two stagiaire stints with the pro team in 2016 and 2017: https://u23cyclingzone.wordpress.com/2017/09/27/get-to-know-max-kanter/
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