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108th Milano - Sanremo, 18th March 2017, 291 km, WT

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19 Mar 2017 01:01

Chapeau to all three. Thoroughbred podium ~ nice to see that. Like 2012 there's nothing lucky or dubious about the winner. If you're strong enough to be off the front near the top of the Poggio that ain't luck. And if you ain't playing a bit of poker off the descent then you're just being stupid. Kwia is in immense form, and played it artfully. Very deserved win.

Also shows the difference in class between Cancellera and Sagan: Cancellara is still bitching about being beaten by Gerrans; Sagan offered an immediate handshake and is on to the next show.
User avatar The Hegelian
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Re: 108th Milano - Sanremo, 18th March 2017, 291 km, WT

19 Mar 2017 01:28

"Sagan the strongest, Kwiat the luckiest. Because without Sagan and A'phill, he would never win. One drag him to Sagan, the other to the finish line." -

- The Sevres of fanboyism.
szuro
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Re:

19 Mar 2017 04:20

The Hegelian wrote:Chapeau to all three. Thoroughbred podium ~ nice to see that. Like 2012 there's nothing lucky or dubious about the winner. If you're strong enough to be off the front near the top of the Poggio that ain't luck. And if you ain't playing a bit of poker off the descent then you're just being stupid. Kwia is in immense form, and played it artfully. Very deserved win.

Also shows the difference in class between Cancellera and Sagan: Cancellara is still bitching about being beaten by Gerrans; Sagan offered an immediate handshake and is on to the next show.

Nah, they both said they were the strongest and that the strongest doesn't always win. There's no bitching there by either. I didn't at all get the impression that Canc was bitter.
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Re: 108th Milano - Sanremo, 18th March 2017, 291 km, WT

19 Mar 2017 08:29

Tonton wrote:Yep, I saw that gap open, and I thought that was it. Kwiat said that he did it in purpose to get Sagan to react and launch the sprint? I'm not so sure that I buy it, he almost got vino-ed. So he was happy to win and made a brash statement: I'm not so sure that I buy it. In the heat of the moment, post race, I don't know. Both Kwiat and Alaphilippe knew that Sagan had committed when he attacked and did most of the work, they knew that he wouldn't bluff and slow down, risk to lose it all. That predictability puts Sagan at a disadvantage. I don't blame him, though. If we got this fantastic finish, that's thanks to him. The guy is a treasure.


I don't get what all the discussion about. Kwait said, which was obvious to moi, that he backed off Sagan's wheel to take advantage of his slipstream and induce him to launch his sprint from too far out. It's not like it's a super original strategy. To the contrary, it's elementary my dear Watson. What is somewhat unbelievable, however, is that a rider of Sagan's class (though admittedly what nature gave to his body, took from his wits) fell so disasterously for it. There is no doubt that Sagan was not only the strongest rider, his attack on the Poggio showed that, but also the fastest. And it was only a lack of race acumen and the necessary sangue freddo (which is kind of surprising, giving the detached, laid back and nonchalant persona he cultivates for himself in the media) to time his sprint properly that prooved fatal.

Proof that Sagan was hoodwinked and that Kwait had set him up, we read in what they respectively said post race (as quoted in today's la Gazetta dello Sport). Sagan: "Then, when I saw 'Kwait' had lost a few meters I went. There were 300, perhaps 250 meters to go. I don't know. They were too many..." Kwait: "I knew that Sagan was faster. I played with him tactically. I left a small gap, which I knew I could close. I saw that Peter looked back (at me). Then I came back to him taking advantage of the slipstream. It's a tactic you learn on the track."

Look, and I'm not making this up, when Sagan launched his sprint at the front from that far out, I literally jumped from the couch and shouted "No! It's too soon! You're gonna get nipped at the line by Kwait!" And that's exactly what happened. Obviously Sagan didn't hear me and preferred suicide. Sagan though he could win on brute strenght. But in the end he was a victim of his own plan, because with that setting he left himself no alternative. And the legs aren't infinite.
Last edited by rhubroma on 19 Mar 2017 09:11, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: 108th Milano - Sanremo, 18th March 2017, 291 km, WT

19 Mar 2017 08:49

szuro wrote:"Sagan the strongest, Kwiat the luckiest. Because without Sagan and A'phill, he would never win. One drag him to Sagan, the other to the finish line." -

- The Sevres of fanboyism.

It's like 90% true. Only case that can be made for Kwiatkowski is that he was taking better lines in the descent than Sagan
Kwibus wrote:So much quesions they have. Answers they will never get.
So why questions? If no answers?
-Kwibus, one of the great philosophers of the 21st century
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Re: 108th Milano - Sanremo, 18th March 2017, 291 km, WT

19 Mar 2017 09:11

Red Rick wrote:
szuro wrote:"Sagan the strongest, Kwiat the luckiest. Because without Sagan and A'phill, he would never win. One drag him to Sagan, the other to the finish line." -

- The Sevres of fanboyism.

It's like 90% true. Only case that can be made for Kwiatkowski is that he was taking better lines in the descent than Sagan

Which suggests that he may well have closed the gap on the descent anyway, even if Alaphilippe hadn't 'dragged him to Sagan'. And, based on what we have seen from him at SB and in the past, he was quite possibly the stronger rider in the run-in as well, not the luckiest. He just didn't feel the need to do more work than was necessary, because he's not a tactical dinosaur.
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Re: 108th Milano - Sanremo, 18th March 2017, 291 km, WT

19 Mar 2017 09:13

DFA123 wrote:
Red Rick wrote:
szuro wrote:"Sagan the strongest, Kwiat the luckiest. Because without Sagan and A'phill, he would never win. One drag him to Sagan, the other to the finish line." -

- The Sevres of fanboyism.

It's like 90% true. Only case that can be made for Kwiatkowski is that he was taking better lines in the descent than Sagan

Which suggests that he may well have closed the gap on the descent anyway, even if Alaphilippe hadn't 'dragged him to Sagan'. And, based on what we have seen from him at SB and in the past, he was quite possibly the stronger rider in the run-in as well, not the luckiest. He just didn't feel the need to do more work than was necessary, because he's not a tactical dinosaur.


Anything to spin the narrative to fit your bias. That's cool. Nobody's buying it though.
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Re: 108th Milano - Sanremo, 18th March 2017, 291 km, WT

19 Mar 2017 09:17

rhubroma wrote:
DFA123 wrote:
Red Rick wrote:
szuro wrote:"Sagan the strongest, Kwiat the luckiest. Because without Sagan and A'phill, he would never win. One drag him to Sagan, the other to the finish line." -

- The Sevres of fanboyism.

It's like 90% true. Only case that can be made for Kwiatkowski is that he was taking better lines in the descent than Sagan

Which suggests that he may well have closed the gap on the descent anyway, even if Alaphilippe hadn't 'dragged him to Sagan'. And, based on what we have seen from him at SB and in the past, he was quite possibly the stronger rider in the run-in as well, not the luckiest. He just didn't feel the need to do more work than was necessary, because he's not a tactical dinosaur.


Anything to spin the narrative to fit your bias. That's cool. Nobody's buying it though.

Focus on the post not the poster please. My narrative is simply that it's impossible to say who was strongest in the finale. Sure, Sagan worked more, but he had to because he had no riders behind and had no cards to play apart from the all out attack. Sagan did what he had to do tactically, but so did Kwiatkowski - he just wasn't a dinosuar about it. It's not the 1950s anymore, you don't go all out to contribute to a breakaway if you have a sprinter 10 seconds behind.
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Re: 108th Milano - Sanremo, 18th March 2017, 291 km, WT

19 Mar 2017 09:22

DFA123 wrote:
rhubroma wrote:
DFA123 wrote:
Red Rick wrote:
szuro wrote:"Sagan the strongest, Kwiat the luckiest. Because without Sagan and A'phill, he would never win. One drag him to Sagan, the other to the finish line." -

- The Sevres of fanboyism.

It's like 90% true. Only case that can be made for Kwiatkowski is that he was taking better lines in the descent than Sagan

Which suggests that he may well have closed the gap on the descent anyway, even if Alaphilippe hadn't 'dragged him to Sagan'. And, based on what we have seen from him at SB and in the past, he was quite possibly the stronger rider in the run-in as well, not the luckiest. He just didn't feel the need to do more work than was necessary, because he's not a tactical dinosaur.


Anything to spin the narrative to fit your bias. That's cool. Nobody's buying it though.

Focus on the post not the poster please. My narrative is simply that it's impossible to say who was strongest in the finale. Sure, Sagan worked more, but he had to because he had no riders behind and had no cards to play apart from the all out attack. Sagan did what he had to do tactically, but so did Kwiatkowski - he just wasn't a dinosuar about it. It's not the 1950s anymore, you don't go all out to contribute to a breakaway if you have a sprinter 10 seconds behind.


Yea and the sky is green with purple polkadots. As I've said before Kwait was fortunate he had Ala at 10 meters to mark, or he doesn't latch on to Sagan. Kwait was on the ropes. Sagan was stronger. Can't even the Sky fans admit that? But as it has so often been said, the strongest doesn't always win.
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Re: 108th Milano - Sanremo, 18th March 2017, 291 km, WT

19 Mar 2017 09:27

rhubroma wrote:
DFA123 wrote:
rhubroma wrote:
DFA123 wrote:
Red Rick wrote:It's like 90% true. Only case that can be made for Kwiatkowski is that he was taking better lines in the descent than Sagan

Which suggests that he may well have closed the gap on the descent anyway, even if Alaphilippe hadn't 'dragged him to Sagan'. And, based on what we have seen from him at SB and in the past, he was quite possibly the stronger rider in the run-in as well, not the luckiest. He just didn't feel the need to do more work than was necessary, because he's not a tactical dinosaur.


Anything to spin the narrative to fit your bias. That's cool. Nobody's buying it though.

Focus on the post not the poster please. My narrative is simply that it's impossible to say who was strongest in the finale. Sure, Sagan worked more, but he had to because he had no riders behind and had no cards to play apart from the all out attack. Sagan did what he had to do tactically, but so did Kwiatkowski - he just wasn't a dinosuar about it. It's not the 1950s anymore, you don't go all out to contribute to a breakaway if you have a sprinter 10 seconds behind.


Yea and the sky is green with purple polkadots.

OK, I see you're just intent on trying to derail the discussion. Sad.

Kwiatkowski is certainly being underestimated by some of the Sagan fanboys though. He's beaten Sagan every time they've come together as a pair/trio in a sprint finish I think. I think because he's the stronger TTist and pursuiter, and so isn't wasting as much energy, or can recover better on the flatter sections. He might lack the explosiveness of Sagan on short climbs and bergs mid-race, but if he stays with him until the end he is usually stronger.
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Re: 108th Milano - Sanremo, 18th March 2017, 291 km, WT

19 Mar 2017 09:31

Yea and the sky is green with purple polkadots.

OK, I see you're just intent on trying to derail the discussion. Sad.

Kwiatkowski is certainly being underestimated by some of the Sagan fanboys though. He's beaten Sagan every time they've come together as a pair/trio in a sprint finish I think. I think because he's the stronger TTist and pursuiter, and so isn't wasting as much energy, or can recover better on the flatter sections. He might lack the explosiveness of Sagan on short climbs and bergs mid-race, but if he stays with him until the end he is usually stronger.


Amicus Plato, sed magis amica veritas.

PS. And you really don't know what you are talking about. I've just called you out on it. Number one, I'm not a Sagan fanboy and, secondly, he was simply objectively the strongest in the race. But the strongest doesn't always win.
Last edited by rhubroma on 19 Mar 2017 09:41, edited 1 time in total.
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19 Mar 2017 09:41

I am more interested in if the roles were reversed. Would the trio have survived if either Alaphalippe or Kwiatkowski were in the Sgan role for the last 5kms ?

Cycling can be a funny sport - Back to LBL in 2016 when Albasini attacked and Poels was the last of the three other riders to join the lead group and goes on to win - Kwiatkowski only just got Sagan's wheel and goes on and wins.
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19 Mar 2017 10:57

Saying Alaphilippe dragged Kwiatkowski to Sagan is really unfair. They shared the effort 50-50. Kwiatkowski responded from few wheels behind and did initial monstrous 800W acceleration on steeper section with Frenchman on his wheel and then Alaphillipe beautifully finished the job on the false flat before downhill. That's how it looked like from my perspective.

yaco wrote:I am more interested in if the roles were reversed. Would the trio have survived if either Alaphalippe or Kwiatkowski were in the Sgan role for the last 5kms ?


They might have as chase was really weak. Much weaker than last year.
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19 Mar 2017 11:14

Sharing a few shots I took before the race started in Milano:

Nando
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Tommeke chatting with Stuyven
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Ewan
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Re:

19 Mar 2017 11:24

Arked wrote:Saying Alaphilippe dragged Kwiatkowski to Sagan is really unfair. They shared the effort 50-50. Kwiatkowski responded from few wheels behind and did initial monstrous 800W acceleration on steeper section with Frenchman on his wheel and then Alaphillipe beautifully finished the job on the false flat before downhill. That's how it looked like from my perspective.

yaco wrote:I am more interested in if the roles were reversed. Would the trio have survived if either Alaphalippe or Kwiatkowski were in the Sgan role for the last 5kms ?


They might have as chase was really weak. Much weaker than last year.


I'm not saying he dragged him there. But in that situation when you are at the limit, having the reference point saved him. Whereas without Ala, Sagan goes solo. In fact Ala really lost Sagan the race, even if there are no if, ands, or buts. Although the fact that Ala and Kwait were not in Sagan's role, is precisely why he was the strongest. But the strongest doesn't always win.
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Re: Re:

19 Mar 2017 11:30

jaylew wrote:
The Hegelian wrote:Chapeau to all three. Thoroughbred podium ~ nice to see that. Like 2012 there's nothing lucky or dubious about the winner. If you're strong enough to be off the front near the top of the Poggio that ain't luck. And if you ain't playing a bit of poker off the descent then you're just being stupid. Kwia is in immense form, and played it artfully. Very deserved win.

Also shows the difference in class between Cancellera and Sagan: Cancellara is still bitching about being beaten by Gerrans; Sagan offered an immediate handshake and is on to the next show.

Nah, they both said they were the strongest and that the strongest doesn't always win. There's no bitching there by either. I didn't at all get the impression that Canc was bitter.


The fact that he still felt the need to bring it up five years after the fact kinda indicates a bit of bitterness, at least to me.
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Re:

19 Mar 2017 12:02

The Hegelian wrote:Also shows the difference in class between Cancellera and Sagan: Cancellara is still bitching about being beaten by Gerrans; Sagan offered an immediate handshake and is on to the next show.


It's true there's a difference in class between the two.

As a matter of fact, in the 2012 Milan-Sanremo post-race interview (28.40) Fabian Cancellara was asked in French if he was angry with Gerrans and he said "Oh no!!! He played well, he played his card, it's sport." Repeating the same thing in English right afterwards and on the podium gave him a tap of the shoulder. Of course not on the finish line. Only a guy like Sagan can so much care for his image that he would do that in front of all camera's knowing that there are more viewers watching the finish than watching the podium. Cancellara has always been the discrete kind after all.

I've never heard Cancellara saying "Gerrans owes me a few beers". It shows first how much Sagan cares for diet. Besides it's just despising a rival that he knows so well given the fact that Kwiatek did not steel the victory at all and pulled at least as much on the flat as Sagan is. Kwiatek was not lucky, was not less strong. He was just less explosive on the Poggio and faster in the sprint, period. This victory reminds me of his Amstel Gold win. There too he could not counter Gilbert's attack on the Cauberg but he has enormous stamina. As was said here he has the rouleur skills and Sagan never really had (except miraculously since last year but to a much lesser extent). Sagan will never be a Cancellara. Cancellara was a natural-born rolling talent. In 2012 he had to carry the trio all the way to Lungo Mare, not to the Via Roma, with one timid pull from Gerrans on the flat. Sagan went to the Via Roma, benefitted from a surprise pull by Alaphilippe on the descent (and an incisive one, despite Gaviria behind and Lefevere's clear choice for the sprinter, I think he must have shouted in the radio!) and then Kwiatek made sure the peloton was held off.

There were many occasions in which riders stuck to Cancellara's wheel, especially in 2011 (E3, Flanders, Roubaix). I have never heard him complaining about Chavanel sticking to his wheel (under team order) at the 2011 Tour of Flanders. Remember what Wilfried Peeters said "He is too strong!"

I'm very glad that Milan-Sanremo did not end in a bunch sprint and about Kwiatek's win, have always liked the guy. A discrete guy, with zero ego, founded a cycling school at age 22. A farm boy too. A champion that cycling needs. An ambassador. Team Sky floored him last year with their crazy slim down policy.
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19 Mar 2017 13:05

Sagan was stronger yesterday. Not doing disservice to Michal, though, as he deserved the win as cycling is both about wits and strength.
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Re:

19 Mar 2017 18:21

Brullnux wrote:Sagan was stronger yesterday. Not doing disservice to Michal, though, as he deserved the win as cycling is both about wits and strength.

The argument about the beers was legit,n but you should have stopped there. Funny that I wasn´t paying attention who has written the post, but after the line with kwiatek doing the same work I was sure whose post it is.

Edit: sorry, I wanted to react to echoes
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Re: Re:

19 Mar 2017 18:43

Echoes said " Ive never heard Cancellara saying "Gerrans owes me a few beers". It shows first how much Sagan cares for diet"

In case you're not aware there are beers with 0% alcohol such as Krombacherbeer which Sagan is often photographed drinking.
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