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I don't get the Gerrans hate

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Re: Re:

18 Mar 2017 23:11

hrotha wrote:
Zinoviev Letter wrote:Gerrans is not entertaining himself, but he is a force for entertainment in the sport. He is the punishment the universe inflicts on stronger puncheurs when they ride conservatively. Believe me, those who hate him now will miss him when no such punishment exists, when he is gone and Valverde is gone and every puncheur feels free to back his own sprint.

I mean, they already do.


It is the presence of Gerrans and Valverde that stops it being nearly universal. They still do it far too often. There are riders who really should wait for a sprint, there are riders who are best served by the similar but not identical strategy of trying to burn everyone in the last km, there are riders who should never wait for the finale. An absence of dominant, obvious, winners if it comes to a sprint encourages riders in the latter two categories towards the first category. Which is really the last thing we should want incentivised.
Zinoviev Letter
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18 Mar 2017 23:24

Seeing as how year after year people wait longer to make their move at LBL, I have to question that analysis. Maybe other riders look at Gerrans and Valverde and don't think "We need fireworks, a harder race, unpredictability". Maybe what they think is "Gerrans and Valverde waited, and it worked. I'll do the same".

Your analysis is rational and intelligent. Riders seldom are.
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Re:

18 Mar 2017 23:48

hrotha wrote:Seeing as how year after year people wait longer to make their move at LBL, I have to question that analysis. Maybe other riders look at Gerrans and Valverde and don't think "We need fireworks, a harder race, unpredictability". Maybe what they think is "Gerrans and Valverde waited, and it worked. I'll do the same".

Your analysis is rational and intelligent. Riders seldom are.


I look at issues like this as centrally being about incentives. Things that don't absolutely determine how a race will be run, but which within existing confines encourage or discourage certain behaviours. Some riders have good racing brains, many unfortunately do not. Many will be too conservative even when it is irrational. Others will wait because it's entirely rational to back themselves to burn everyone in the last uphill km (a Purito, say, or a Martin) and others will wait because it's entirely rational to back themselves in a sprint (a Gerrans or Valverde). That can't be helped. Those guys are racing to maximise their chance. The best we can hope for is for it to be as absolutely clear as possible to everyone else that trying to beat those guys at their own game is strictly for idiots.

Now you are right that strictly for idiots is not a disincentive for actual idiots. But not everyone is an idiot. The hilly classics have been generally bad for a long time now, but unfortunately it could be worse. The more everyone is aware that thinking you can win a sprint means that a Simon Gerrans will eat your lunch, the better.
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Re: Re:

19 Mar 2017 01:00

42x16ss wrote:
Flamin wrote:
hrotha wrote:It's not so much that he doesn't attack (although that obviously doesn't win him many fans), it's mostly what GuyIncognito said: he doesn't pull even when it'd be in his best interest to do so. At the MSR he won, for example, he was the fastest of the three and still refused to work. He doesn't create racing, he destroys it.

Which he obviously has a right to do, but then you shouldn't expect fans to support that kind of thing.

edit: I mean, wheelsucking is fine when you're the slowest rider or you've been in the break or whatever, but Gerrans would very often be the fastest one and he'd still expect to be towed to the finish line. I can't stand that. Also, his clashes with Matthews are very telling, but screw Matthews too.

edit 2: also, you don't need to join in the Gerrans hating but surely it's a most simple thing to comprehend?


I agree with everything except that he refused to work at MSR back then. I'm pretty sure Cancellara was pulling like a madman for most of the time almost without looking back and even asking for a pull. Can't really blame Gerrans for that.

Agreed. Even Nibali could do nothing but hold on to that attack and he was second wheel. At least Gerrans took a turn at the bottom of the Poggio.


That wasn't a turn. Cancellara rolled off the front exposing Gerrans to the wind and that was the extent of it. Gerrans slowed immediately and did not pull through.
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19 Mar 2017 01:35

Riders know what to expect from Gerrans especially after his MSR win. He is not an elite sprinter usually but when he can conserve his energy and sprint at the end of a classic he can be very good. He can also climb better than most sprinters. He is probably more of a climber that can sprint than the other way around. But when he won at Liege no one attacked him. When Kwia won the World Roads from attacking it was the copybook way to beat Gerrans. What is surprising is that so many times Gerrans wins a group sprint by being dragged to the finish but he also has shown the ability to win bunch sprints, more often in the smaller races but also sometimes in GTs. I was not surprised that he won MSR but I never thought he would win Liege and only bad tactics from others let it happen.There are probably plenty of more talented riders around but he makes the most of what he has and to think he first started his career going out in breaks on mountain stages and sometimes winning them. The conversion from breakaway rider to sprinter was a smart move. The sprint was always there as he won the breakaway stages in sprints as well but as time went on his sprinting really improved.
Last edited by movingtarget on 19 Mar 2017 05:58, edited 1 time in total.
movingtarget
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19 Mar 2017 02:15

Dodgy career progression, which allows a non-top echelon talented rider to make a big leap forward well in the 30's. Unidimensional race tactics which consists of leeching from other riders efforts. Ruins a bright Cancellara win in San Remo and suddenly is able to troll even Valverde in his own comfort zones. So, I guess some people could feel a little bit enraged at the time with this rider.
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Re:

19 Mar 2017 02:44

KyoGrey wrote:Dodgy career progression, which allows a non-top echelon talented rider to make a big leap forward well in the 30's. Unidimensional race tactics which consists of leeching from other riders efforts. Ruins a bright Cancellara win in San Remo and suddenly is able to troll even Valverde in his own comfort zones. So, I guess some people could feel a little bit enraged at the time with this rider.

It still amazes me that Gerrans doesn't have a multi page clinic thread. His first step up in 2009 was big, and his step up in 2012 was ludicrous.
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19 Mar 2017 02:53

Happy to defend him. Always thought he had racing nous, but I think where people go really badly astray in their irrational hate is their refusal to recognise his physical talents.

i.e. in the period between 2012 and 2015, he was up there with Valverde and Gilbert as one of the absolute elite puncheurs, but with a better finishing sprint than both. That's a serious weapon to have - being able to stick with the severest attacks up the Cauberg or Poggio, which dislodge all the genuine sprinters, but having a great sprint yourself.......what kind of idiot would develop that rare gift and then not use it strategically? The critique boils down to this: you're not a Sagan or Cancellera. Well, what a bloody stupid reason to hate someone!

The other issue of irrationality is his much hated unwillingness to chase down late attacks (i.e. 2015 worlds, Aust Nats). What people don't get there is that it's always an each way bet whether to chase or not; people seem to think that only attacking racers risk willing to lose in order to win, but precisely the same bet is on with defensive tactics. I heard Gerrans say pretty much the same thing: to keep your head, stay cool and be prepared to lose in staying super patient - that requires just as much courage as going all out from earlier than you think works best for your capacities.
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19 Mar 2017 02:57

"The critique boils down to this: you're not a Sagan or Cancellera. Well, what a bloody stupid reason to hate someone!"

Spot on
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19 Mar 2017 03:08

Even more - if youre CEO of an Apple, or youre playing a "Thief" or whatever game on pc, or youre just trying to ... a girl before someone else, or youre just trying to be better at cooking or whatever then youre ok. But if youre a Gerrans...Youre just a looser and criminal.
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19 Mar 2017 04:04

Gerrans is a rider who has maximized his palmares for his talent.His ability to bluff, out wait other riders is extraordinary. The tactics followed are simple. Chase down late attackers with team. Once team is done utilize the services of other teams if available. Once the finale is set make sure other leaders(big names) chase the attackers as they have more to lose and stick to those leaders like a limpet. then at 100-200 m sprint. He has won a mountain stage of the TDF just by bluffing Egoi Martinez who was a climber. As a result he has won MSR, LBL but only once. After every team is wise to the same, nobody would cooperate. It is like you sow the seeds, you water the plants, you harvest the wheat, you bake the bread and somebody else eats it without paying. Valverde used to do the same long time ago as a result he got lot of 2nd places. Once he took control of the finale, he started to win a lot. But if Gerrans does that he probably would not win. Gerrans' WCC 2014 when he thought he would win without doing any work is when i was pissed off.
This is the part of a longer trend in cycling. To maximize their chances, an all out effort is done for a maximum of 15-20 min only. With the powermeters, everybody knows their limits. As a result everything is choreographed upto the 1-5 kilometer. Cipollini started the extensive use of trains in sprints, Orica started the extensive use of Trains in the hilly classics, US Postal started the extensive use of trains on the climbs. Only the cobbled classics remain..
BTW Paris Nice 2017 was an exception but a very welcome one and it would probably best race of the year
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Re:

19 Mar 2017 06:06

KyoGrey wrote:Dodgy career progression, which allows a non-top echelon talented rider to make a big leap forward well in the 30's. Unidimensional race tactics which consists of leeching from other riders efforts. Ruins a bright Cancellara win in San Remo and suddenly is able to troll even Valverde in his own comfort zones. So, I guess some people could feel a little bit enraged at the time with this rider.


And how many riders can you identify like that ? Some people would argue, half the Sky team. Gerrans had a late start to the sport and improving as he got older was not such a big deal. Valverde received hatred for doing the same thing but when Gerrans did it the response was just over the top. What is worse ? Cancellara's whining every time he gets beat or when the weather is bad or when he wants to neutralize the race or Gerrans winning one or two good races ? Boonen never whined about getting beaten like Cancellara did. People that get enraged about sports results need to get a grip.
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Re:

19 Mar 2017 07:57

RedheadDane wrote:I don't get it either. Of course he doesn't attack much, he's a (sort of) sprinter. That would be like hating on Cavendish or Kittel for never attacking. It's their job to win races, not to race excitedly.
Besides, he seems like a pretty cool guy.


Difference is a rider like Kittel or Cav can't really attack, whereas there's terrain where a puncher like Gerrans could attack
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Re:

19 Mar 2017 10:15

szuro wrote:"The critique boils down to this: you're not a Sagan or Cancellera. Well, what a bloody stupid reason to hate someone!"

Spot on

This thread is packed full with reasons why people hate Gerrans, and that's not one of them. Read it?
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19 Mar 2017 10:32

Well Orica planned for Gerrans to attack on the Poggio assuming that, only Cort would be in the lead group, to give themselves two options - Lo and behold and Ewan was also in the lead group - So at that stage Gerrans was told to sit up and wait for the sprint.
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19 Mar 2017 10:39

Gerrans in his eyes has been unlucky - Evan's rode away from the peleton in the 2009 World's when Gerrans was the protected rider - Gerrans by omission names Matthews for costing him the 2014 World's, because he had Clarke and Matthews in the peleton when Kwiatkovski attacked.
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Re:

19 Mar 2017 10:58

yaco wrote:Gerrans in his eyes has been unlucky - Evan's rode away from the peleton in the 2009 World's when Gerrans was the protected rider - Gerrans by omission names Matthews for costing him the 2014 World's, because he had Clarke and Matthews in the peleton when Kwiatkovski attacked.


In the 2009 worlds if Gerrans had been strong enough he could followed, he was just not strong enough. The route suited Evans better, it was too hard for Gerrans.

In the MSR he won he was racing for defending champion Goss who was in the chasing group so that is why he did not take turns. He had been given the specific job of marking moves on the Poggio to be there at the end if the moves were not caught. He carried out the job his team gave him to perfection.
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Re: Re:

19 Mar 2017 11:23

PremierAndrew wrote:
RedheadDane wrote:I don't get it either. Of course he doesn't attack much, he's a (sort of) sprinter. That would be like hating on Cavendish or Kittel for never attacking. It's their job to win races, not to race excitedly.
Besides, he seems like a pretty cool guy.


Difference is a rider like Kittel or Cav can't really attack, whereas there's terrain where a puncher like Gerrans could attack


Sure, he could attack, but if he feels like his chances of winning are bigger if he waits for the (reduced) sprint, why would he?

---

As for the 2014 Worlds: How do we know he wasn't crying about it because he knew he'd messed up? It is possible to cry about something you know is your own fault. And as for saying he was heartbroken; of course he was heartbroken. He'd just messed up what might have been his last chance of becoming World Champion. I don't remember how big his chances were stated to be for Richmond. Doha was definitely too flat, though. Bergen, too hilly? Innsbruck, too hilly? Also, he's getting old.
Aka The Ginger One.
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Re: Re:

19 Mar 2017 11:34

TheGreenMonkey wrote:
yaco wrote:Gerrans in his eyes has been unlucky - Evan's rode away from the peleton in the 2009 World's when Gerrans was the protected rider - Gerrans by omission names Matthews for costing him the 2014 World's, because he had Clarke and Matthews in the peleton when Kwiatkovski attacked.


In the 2009 worlds if Gerrans had been strong enough he could followed, he was just not strong enough. The route suited Evans better, it was too hard for Gerrans.

In the MSR he won he was racing for defending champion Goss who was in the chasing group so that is why he did not take turns. He had been given the specific job of marking moves on the Poggio to be there at the end if the moves were not caught. He carried out the job his team gave him to perfection.


Blind Freddy could see the 2009 parcours suited Evans more than Gerrans - Unfortunately team management chose Gerrans as the protected rider - Aussie Team Management recently at the world's and Olympic's have been below par.
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Re: Re:

19 Mar 2017 11:58

movingtarget wrote:
KyoGrey wrote:Dodgy career progression, which allows a non-top echelon talented rider to make a big leap forward well in the 30's. Unidimensional race tactics which consists of leeching from other riders efforts. Ruins a bright Cancellara win in San Remo and suddenly is able to troll even Valverde in his own comfort zones. So, I guess some people could feel a little bit enraged at the time with this rider.


And how many riders can you identify like that ? Some people would argue, half the Sky team. Gerrans had a late start to the sport and improving as he got older was not such a big deal. Valverde received hatred for doing the same thing but when Gerrans did it the response was just over the top. What is worse ? Cancellara's whining every time he gets beat or when the weather is bad or when he wants to neutralize the race or Gerrans winning one or two good races ? Boonen never whined about getting beaten like Cancellara did. People that get enraged about sports results need to get a grip.


Yes, sports are a beautiful thing and rage is not the appropiate feeling when watching any one of them. I was objectivelly stating the reasons of the Gerrans hate by some fans, which I believe is the topic of this post.

And yes, the same questions can be asked about other riders. But that doesn't make better Gerrans sudden transformation into a terrific killer at age 32 with Orica. Even a rider like Purito, which is considered also a very late bloomer with Katusha had shown much more things at that age, and he certainly won his 2 monuments with a different style

Valverde has practised the same Gerrans race tactics on many occasions (and he was blasted also), but he has also made great pure cycling exhibitions and has been almost unanymously regarded as one of the best cycling talents of the XXI century since he was 23. Cancellara was a whiner sometimes off the road, but in races he was extraordinary in all senses. So there is a certain love/hate side for both this riders and that is what makes them so interesting. What is exactly to love about Gerrans way of riding?
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