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Transfers and Rumours 2018 > 2019

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Re: Transfers and Rumours 2018 > 2019

19 Oct 2018 16:46

Squire wrote:
Anderis wrote:Kim Magnusson from EF to Riwal. Surprising move as many sites were assuming that he was on a 2 year deal until 2019 with EF.

I don't think he was really a WT-level rider so I'm glad that he will make a space for someone else.

He finished the vast majority of races he took part in this season, which suggests to me he could be a reliable worker for a PCT team, at least. Good on him for making sure he'll be labelled 'former WT pro' for the rest of his career. Will sound great to the ears of PR people at new, small teams popping up who might sign him in the future.

Riwal took him because the sponsor wanted swedish cyclists. I don't think he can contribute much but who knows. Arguably Fredrik Ludvigsson would have been a better choice.
Last edited by ciranda on 19 Oct 2018 18:00, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Re:

19 Oct 2018 17:25

kingjr wrote:As for the Machester City analogy. Football fans are not, not watching football on TV because of them whatseover. Although TV rights and viewing figures have plateaued, Sky still paid £3.57bn over three years to broadcast it in UK. Football is not a good sport to compare to though perhaps as it survives almost separately to any other sport financially anyway.
It's also not a good sport to compare because they are two entirely different types of sport. Even if a team is dominant one can still enjoy their style and quality of play, which is obviously more difficult in cycling.[/quote]
The other problem with the analogy is that you can always go and watch another league of comparable standard, or just watch other people's matches within the league because only 2 teams play at any one time against one another, rather than being a pack sport like cycling is. A more appropriate football analogy would probably be PSG anyway, whose wealth has made Ligue 1 almost unwatchable as a spectacle because most matches PSG are in are one-sided and most matches without PSG in them have been reduced to irrelevance.

As to samhocking's point about other teams making themselves more attractive, that depends entirely on the safety of the sponsorship money long-term, which we know is a long-standing issue. Only a handful of teams have the kind of longevity that means they can be considered fairly stable sponsorship-wise, and teams like Lotto and Movistar have their own internal espoir programs to develop riders and don't have the budget to compete with the likes of Sky for the superstar young talents anyway, notwithstanding that Movistar is ridiculously top-heavy at present anyway. The problem is, so long as Sky can snap up all the young talent as they are doing at present, the harder it will be for other teams to secure the kind of long-term investment from sponsors that will enable them to compete, because why plough money into something over such a long period, when all you're going to get in the biggest races is scraps to feed off? I mean, BMC, the second biggest budget in the péloton, abandoned their U23 team because they couldn't stop Sky creaming off the best talent, and so BMC were investing in the development of riders and spending that money on them, while Sky were spending no money at that stage, waiting to see who got good, and then spending the same money that others had spent on the rider development on the contract to get first dibs on them, which the other teams couldn't match because they had the costs of running their development teams to take into account. For a lot of teams, that's a real dissuasion from developing riders, unless it is your modus operandi or has become it, like Savio's new niche as a proving ground for South American talent he can then take a payment for when a big team wants to buy them out of their contract.

And of course not all of them will become superstars and some of them will wind up elsewhere in a couple of years' time anyway. But it's going to be very hard to buy riders as threats to or challenges to Team Sky's hegemony if they're the same riders that Team Sky jettisoned because of not being as worth keeping as those youngsters they keep, right?

It's the first time in the WorldTour era that we've really seen a division killer like this, as previously outsized-budget teams have often thrown money wildly at big names to get off the ground or have been in the pre-biopass era that enabled them to focus singularly on a couple of goals leaving the rest of the calendar untouched, so how the sport reacts now could be key to the next generation. Whether it be ushering in an age of a small handful of super-teams, introducing a salary cap, bringing in a number of pseudo-national money-sponsors to combat Sky's might, or an era of lopsided domination that sees audiences fall away and smaller teams struggle for sponsorship as they're reduced to break fodder, we don't know yet, however how the sport - the authorities, the sponsors, the other teams, the riders, the fans, all of them, both individually and collectively - deals with having a team who are so dominant across the sport both on and off the bike, and both ruthless and amoral in how they sustain that position, is going to be very important indeed.
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19 Oct 2018 17:45

I think you're overanalyzing Sky's dominance as a bad thing, when teams should be seeing it as a target to smash down, not a barrier to blunder along doing things out of tradition. There's nothing unique about Sky as a company that sponsors cycling. If they exist, others do to. Obviously Brailsford and Kerrison are seen within the peloton as currently the best at what they do and so initially, it's not even about money, it's about vision and that costs nothing.
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Re: Transfers and Rumours 2018 > 2019

19 Oct 2018 17:51

Don't think it was mentioned yet, Eddy Theuns is confirmed back with Trek for 2019.
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Re:

19 Oct 2018 17:57

samhocking wrote:I think you're overanalyzing Sky's dominance as a bad thing, when teams should be seeing it as a target to smash down, not a barrier to blunder along doing things out of tradition. There's nothing unique about Sky as a company that sponsors cycling. If they exist, others do to. Obviously Brailsford and Kerrison are seen within the peloton as currently the best at what they do and so initially, it's not even about money, it's about vision and that costs nothing.

The argument that teams shouldn't be frustrated by sky but rather motivated is, just like the argument that instead of a budget cap the UCI should help smaller teams to get a bigger budget, simply nonsense. I mean how do people think this sport works? Teams are running at 50% and when a super power arises they can suddenly be twice as good by the power of motivation? Those teams have always been doing their best it's just that they don't have the resources to be even better.
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Re:

19 Oct 2018 18:17

samhocking wrote:I think you're overanalyzing Sky's dominance as a bad thing, when teams should be seeing it as a target to smash down, not a barrier to blunder along doing things out of tradition. There's nothing unique about Sky as a company that sponsors cycling. If they exist, others do to. Obviously Brailsford and Kerrison are seen within the peloton as currently the best at what they do and so initially, it's not even about money, it's about vision and that costs nothing.


My god, the level of delusion is astounding :lol:
If this is trolling, then Rick James needs to take notes because you actually do it well.

Brailsford being seen as the best at anything in the peloton is funny enough by itself, but the claim that it's not about money is simply hilarious.
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Re:

19 Oct 2018 18:32

samhocking wrote:I think you're overanalyzing Sky's dominance as a bad thing, when teams should be seeing it as a target to smash down, not a barrier to blunder along doing things out of tradition. There's nothing unique about Sky as a company that sponsors cycling. If they exist, others do to. Obviously Brailsford and Kerrison are seen within the peloton as currently the best at what they do and so initially, it's not even about money, it's about vision and that costs nothing.

Plenty of people have had long term visions that came crashing down quickly when either things got harder than anticipated or it became clear that the vision would not become a reality.

That was what the point of the final paragraph was about. This is the first time in the World Tour era we've seen a team that is so dominant in terms of front end results, depth and recruitment, and how the sport reacts is going to be key. That could be via the UCI introducing some restrictions to prevent a team financially strong-arming all opposition into submission, it could be via the introduction of long-term franchises in the style that Jonathan Vaughters was promoting a few years ago, so that other teams have the security of long term invites that would enable them to provide more attractive propositions to young riders and sponsors alike (because while the franchise idea had a lot of weaknesses discussed at the time - including potentially killing off the ProConti tier almost entirely and dissuading anybody from starting up new teams due to the impossibility of developing ground-up teams or entering the World Tour from scratch without the baggage of a previous team - at the WT level in isolation, it does look to help others compete without imposing any undue restrictions on Sky themselves), it could be via other teams being forced to source high-level long-term investment (which considering the amount of major teams who've struggled for sponsors or gone bust when a sugar daddy pulled the plug in the last 10 years seems a very high risk strategy as I doubt there are sufficient sponsors willing to fund teams - on such a long-term deal and with the vastly elevated budget compared to the current situation, in order to compete with the likes of Sky - to finance the whole World Tour, and it would otherwise only exacerbate the 'haves' and 'have nots' problem), or it could be to leave things as it is and simply cross fingers and press thumbs that the ensuing spectacle doesn't get so one-sided and predictable so as to impact audience figures too heavily (after all, the lower the audience reach, the harder it is to attract those long-term high-spend sponsors).

Suggesting Sky's dominance should be seen as a target to smash down and that vision costs nothing is pure Supply Side Jesus fallacy. Seeing somebody who is richer than you will make you strive to be as rich as them. "They say that your teaching is misleading, Supply Side Jesus, and your teachings make the rich richer but the poor poorer" "Ah, but Pilate, average income is going up!" Vision might cost nothing, but imparting that vision into reality does have costs, as Aqua Blue Sport, Leopard Trek, Cult Energy, Pegasus, PureBlack Racing, Cervélo Test Team, Colombia-Coldeportes and all manner of other teams launched with a great deal of fanfare only to crumble - and even a few who've become established World Tour teams but not at the level originally envisaged, such as Trek or Dimension Data, can show you. And even if you have a long term big money sponsor willing to commit for several years, that's no guarantor. We just had a team like that, which built up from the ProConti level thanks to a rich team leader with many years' experience of cycling and an invested long-term sponsor. That's exactly the kind of team that ought to be seeing Sky as a target to smash down, right? It was called BMC and it closed its development team because Sky kept outbidding them for their own talents.
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Re: Re:

19 Oct 2018 18:38

Gigs_98 wrote:
samhocking wrote:I think you're overanalyzing Sky's dominance as a bad thing, when teams should be seeing it as a target to smash down, not a barrier to blunder along doing things out of tradition. There's nothing unique about Sky as a company that sponsors cycling. If they exist, others do to. Obviously Brailsford and Kerrison are seen within the peloton as currently the best at what they do and so initially, it's not even about money, it's about vision and that costs nothing.

The argument that teams shouldn't be frustrated by sky but rather motivated is, just like the argument that instead of a budget cap the UCI should help smaller teams to get a bigger budget, simply nonsense. I mean how do people think this sport works? Teams are running at 50% and when a super power arises they can suddenly be twice as good by the power of motivation? Those teams have always been doing their best it's just that they don't have the resources to be even better.

Славься, отечество наше свободное, дружбы народов надёжный оплот!
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Re: Transfers and Rumours 2018 > 2019

19 Oct 2018 20:01

Wij steunen hem, tenzij hij niet genoeg fietst.
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Re: Transfers and Rumours 2018 > 2019

19 Oct 2018 20:30



So it'll be Sam, George & Sean in the peloton (shame we can n't find a Ringo then we could call them the Fab Four :) ... god, I feel old :D )
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19 Oct 2018 20:36

Just wait to the situation in a couple of years when Iven Bennett turns pro.
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Re: Transfers and Rumours 2018 > 2019

19 Oct 2018 20:45

Robert5091 wrote:


So it'll be Sam, George & Sean in the peloton (shame we can n't find a Ringo then we could call them the Fab Four :) ... god, I feel old :D )

The commentators on Polish Eurosport mix up Sam and George on a regular basis. I can only imagine how much harder it will be for them to tell Sam and Sean apart then.
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Re: Transfers and Rumours 2018 > 2019

19 Oct 2018 22:18

tobydawq wrote:
search wrote:
Anderis wrote:Kim Magnusson from EF to Riwal. Surprising move as many sites were assuming that he was on a 2 year deal until 2019 with EF.

he definitely was, every neo-pro deal is for a minimum of two years


I'm not sure, as you can only be a neo-pro if you're under 25.

you are right, I didn't double check his age, thought he was younger. He is not listed as a neo-pro on the UCI website

He still signed on a two year deal though, as confirmed on the official website

https://www.efprocycling.com/magnusson-joins-slipstream-sports/
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Re: Re:

20 Oct 2018 10:39

Libertine Seguros wrote:
Gigs_98 wrote:
samhocking wrote:I think you're overanalyzing Sky's dominance as a bad thing, when teams should be seeing it as a target to smash down, not a barrier to blunder along doing things out of tradition. There's nothing unique about Sky as a company that sponsors cycling. If they exist, others do to. Obviously Brailsford and Kerrison are seen within the peloton as currently the best at what they do and so initially, it's not even about money, it's about vision and that costs nothing.

The argument that teams shouldn't be frustrated by sky but rather motivated is, just like the argument that instead of a budget cap the UCI should help smaller teams to get a bigger budget, simply nonsense. I mean how do people think this sport works? Teams are running at 50% and when a super power arises they can suddenly be twice as good by the power of motivation? Those teams have always been doing their best it's just that they don't have the resources to be even better.

Славься, отечество наше свободное, дружбы народов надёжный оплот!


Sport works the same as any other business. Another business launches a better product and so you launch an even better one. That is business development, no different than team development.

Sky do not have ANY influence on other teams funding, have no influence on other teams sponsors budget in cycling and have no influence on how any team manager decides to run their team. If those team manager and their sponsors want to compete with 50% less, again that is not anything Sky have done. Sky want to win bike races, they do what is required to win bike races, cycling exists for someone to win bike races.
Sky is no different to step changes in cycling such as Peugeot in early 1910's, again in 1950's, or Alcyon in the 1920s, Molteni in 70's, La Vie Claire in 80's, Banesto in 90s, Postal in early 2000's, Quickstep today. Teams have always come in with bigger budgets and/or better methods and then dominated, that is expected, that's how a bike race is won by a team.
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20 Oct 2018 11:05

http://www.teamcoopsykkel.no/index.php/29-nyheter/nyheter-2018/660-krister-hagen-blir-profesjonell
Team Coop's 29 year old Krister Hagen, after re-signing for 2019 on the 9th., is now off to Denmarks's Riwal CeramicSpeed Cycling Team according to http://riwalcyclingteam.dk/da/teamet/teamnyheder/riwal-ceramicspeed-praesenterer-ny-navnesponsor-readynez-paa-3-aarig-kontrakt-sidste-seks-ryttere-offentliggjort/

Hagen did well in the heat in Portugal & at the Arctic Race this year.

Just to make it even more confusing the team will be called Riwal Readynez Cycling Team from Jan 1st 2019 because of new sponsors.
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Re: Re:

20 Oct 2018 11:06

GuyIncognito wrote:
samhocking wrote:I think you're overanalyzing Sky's dominance as a bad thing, when teams should be seeing it as a target to smash down, not a barrier to blunder along doing things out of tradition. There's nothing unique about Sky as a company that sponsors cycling. If they exist, others do to. Obviously Brailsford and Kerrison are seen within the peloton as currently the best at what they do and so initially, it's not even about money, it's about vision and that costs nothing.


My god, the level of delusion is astounding :lol:
If this is trolling, then Rick James needs to take notes because you actually do it well.

Brailsford being seen as the best at anything in the peloton is funny enough by itself, but the claim that it's not about money is simply hilarious.


Their results stand for themselves. Theres a collective GT experience at wining GTs in other teams totalling 1000s of years spread racross other teams staff and Brailsford beat them from zero years experience at how to win a GT. In fact initially he beat them with the same budget too!
Last edited by samhocking on 20 Oct 2018 11:13, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Transfers and Rumours 2018 > 2019

20 Oct 2018 11:09

Anderis wrote:
Robert5091 wrote:


So it'll be Sam, George & Sean in the peloton (shame we can n't find a Ringo then we could call them the Fab Four :) ... god, I feel old :D )

The commentators on Polish Eurosport mix up Sam and George on a regular basis. I can only imagine how much harder it will be for them to tell Sam and Sean apart then.


Also the Tour de Pologne Graphics Department… You'd think being able to tell the riders apart would be one of the requirements for having a job like that. Especially when you consider that Sam and George aren't that similar, and Sam didn't even ride!
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Re: Re:

20 Oct 2018 11:19

samhocking wrote:In fact initially he beat them with the same budget too!

mmm... considering the amount (and length of contract) he agreed to pay Wiggins, as well as the 'transfer fee' he paid Garmin and the names of the other 26 riders back then, I find that hard to believe.
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20 Oct 2018 12:47

Wiggins was on £300k at Garmin. Brailsford signed him for £900k and paid Garmin £2m. Contador at the time was on £3.96M in 2010, so it would be more expensive to sign Contador than Wiggins, so Brailsford actually did more with less £ in fact.
Even by 2016, Katusha's budget was reported by lequipe to only be €2m less than Sky. Factor in exchange rate from sterling to euro and then back again, even BMC is roughly the same budget.
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Re: Re:

20 Oct 2018 19:28

“Sport works the same as any other business. Another business launches a better product and so you launch an even better one. That is business development, no different than team development”

Well, if that’s the argument, consider that’s why we have anti-trust laws in the U.S. and EU, and in fact those need strengthening as we can see in today’s marketplace.

And it’s why all the major U.S. sports leagues, which most certainly are the “business world,” have a salary cap!
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