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Ivan Sosa discussion thread

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Re: Re:

21 Sep 2018 15:44

Red Rick wrote:We can't expect twenty-somethigns to think a little bit for themselves or have some principals

Why not? It's not difficult. Even six year olds know what a promise is.
janraaskalt
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Re: Re:

21 Sep 2018 15:46

janraaskalt wrote:
Red Rick wrote:We can't expect twenty-somethigns to think a little bit for themselves or have some principals

Why not? It's not difficult. Even six year olds know what a promise is.

That was a badly failed attempt at a rhethorical question, sorry :o
Veni, Vidi, Kirby

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Re: Re:

21 Sep 2018 15:49

Red Rick wrote:
janraaskalt wrote:
Red Rick wrote:We can't expect twenty-somethigns to think a little bit for themselves or have some principals

Why not? It's not difficult. Even six year olds know what a promise is.

That was a badly failed attempt at a rhethorical question, sorry :o

Facepalm (one of us :D )
janraaskalt
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Re: Re:

21 Sep 2018 17:18

Red Rick wrote:
Angliru wrote:
Pippo_San wrote:https://www.tuttobiciweb.it/article/2018/09/21/1537522957/ivan-sosa-questa-A�-la-nostra-verita-angelini-alberati-fondriest-bianco-trek-guercilena-tuttobiciweb

Utterly bad and honestly unprofessional behavior from Sosa. Long story short, he was followed by Alberatti and Fondriest and they made him agree to an awesome contract with Trek (stating that initially it looked easier to follow Bernal to Sky but he didn't want to be a PLAN B in hierarchy). Then all of a sudden this Acquadro gets in, brainwash him somehow, and probably find a new team for him that will pay him more.
So it seems like Sosa literally spit on what he agreed to and to the people that followed him and cared for him.
Meh.


If a young rider is negatively influenced, "brainwashed" as you say, by an agent, how can you lay most of the blame on him for what transpires?

Wait, we can't expect twenty-somethigns to think a little bit for themselves or have some principals?


Shouldn't the same apply to the agent and the team that signed him knowing that he had already signed with someone else? Principles aren't just for riders. I would think that a team would prefer that any signing be without controversy and especially not be with potential ethical standards being breached.
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21 Sep 2018 19:19

I don't think that his plan really was to sign with Sky, the new manager probably convinced him that playing hard to get would get him a bigger contract.
Sky alreadyy have leaders for 3 gts (Thomas, Froome, Bernal) and guys who want to be the team leader in shorter stage races (Poels, De la Cruz, Kwait and the list goes on...).
It would be different if he was a neopro who mainly sees it as a learning experience or and older rider who wants a big salary without having the stress of being a team leader, but for someone in his position signing with Sky is probably not the ideal option.
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22 Sep 2018 08:16

Savio gets a 'development fee' for discovering the rider and bringing him to a World Tour team 1 year before the riders contract finishes. This will be as much about what Savio gets out of the deal as the new agent and rider. Basically it's what happened to Bernal too. Savio gets a nice chunk of cash and going to Sky he probably gets a bigger chunk.
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Re:

22 Sep 2018 08:32

samhocking wrote:Savio gets a 'development fee' for discovering the rider and bringing him to a World Tour team 1 year before the riders contract finishes. This will be as much about what Savio gets out of the deal as the new agent and rider. Basically it's what happened to Bernal too. Savio gets a nice chunk of cash and going to Sky he probably gets a bigger chunk.

But Savio isn't involved in this mess at all.
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22 Sep 2018 09:54

He is. Savio is the one that has to be paid to release the rider.
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22 Sep 2018 09:57

So we're moving closer to a football model where buying out contracts is to become the norm?

Cycling desperately needs a more sustainable business model, more than any other sport probably
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Re:

22 Sep 2018 10:13

samhocking wrote:He is. Savio is the one that has to be paid to release the rider.

But he's not involved in the contract mess whatsoever, he himself said he wasn't aware of Sosa ditching his Trek agreement until he heard about it from the media. You made it sound like it's in Savio's interest to send Sosa off to Sky while he has no real say in the matter, it's all Sosa and his manager.
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22 Sep 2018 10:17

Savio is old school and makes money from young riders. What he does is have his scouts in Columbia find the next big rider, brings him over, and the riders signs a 'bonus for his development'. What that means is when the rider moves to another team, Savio receives a cash payment through the rider from the other team. That's basically how Savio makes his money on these young riders. For Bernal Sky paid Savio £35k I think it was. Not bad for 2 years signing a rider that's making you over £1k a month whatever. Sosa signed the same deal as Bernal as far as i know.
Last edited by samhocking on 22 Sep 2018 10:20, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Re:

22 Sep 2018 10:18

LaFlorecita wrote:
samhocking wrote:He is. Savio is the one that has to be paid to release the rider.

But he's not involved in the contract mess whatsoever, he himself said he wasn't aware of Sosa ditching his Trek agreement until he heard about it from the media. You made it sound like it's in Savio's interest to send Sosa off to Sky while he has no real say in the matter, it's all Sosa and his manager.

If Sosa doesn't sign a contract with Trek and Savio doesn't release him from his contract to sign for another team, Sosa will ride for Androni in 2019. If that doesn't make Savio involved?

Besides, maybe Sky is willing to pay Savio more than Trek was paying.
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Re:

22 Sep 2018 10:24

Red Rick wrote:So we're moving closer to a football model where buying out contracts is to become the norm?

Cycling desperately needs a more sustainable business model, more than any other sport probably

Savio is trying this. So far successfully, because the riders having gotten the long-term contracts were performing. One miss-hit and he's stuck to paying money for 4 years to a rider that is not performing and he's not getting any transfer compensation. Somehow this doesn't feel ike sustainable at all.

More sustainable would be if all teams have to pay (say) 30.000 dollars/euros/swiss francs for all neo pros, to the teams a rider was riding for the 2-3 years before (or split in case of multiple teams).
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Re: Re:

22 Sep 2018 10:24

janraaskalt wrote:
LaFlorecita wrote:
samhocking wrote:He is. Savio is the one that has to be paid to release the rider.

But he's not involved in the contract mess whatsoever, he himself said he wasn't aware of Sosa ditching his Trek agreement until he heard about it from the media. You made it sound like it's in Savio's interest to send Sosa off to Sky while he has no real say in the matter, it's all Sosa and his manager.

If Sosa doesn't sign a contract with Trek and Savio doesn't release him from his contract to sign for another team, Sosa will ride for Androni in 2019. If that doesn't make Savio involved?

Besides, maybe Sky is willing to pay Savio more than Trek was paying.


Yep, it's just pay to race flipped around. Now Savio was banned for pay to race, he's simply flipped it to 'pay to release' hidden as a development fee in the riders contract the next team pays, rather than the rider when signing.
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Re: Re:

22 Sep 2018 10:32

janraaskalt wrote:
LaFlorecita wrote:
samhocking wrote:He is. Savio is the one that has to be paid to release the rider.

But he's not involved in the contract mess whatsoever, he himself said he wasn't aware of Sosa ditching his Trek agreement until he heard about it from the media. You made it sound like it's in Savio's interest to send Sosa off to Sky while he has no real say in the matter, it's all Sosa and his manager.

If Sosa doesn't sign a contract with Trek and Savio doesn't release him from his contract to sign for another team, Sosa will ride for Androni in 2019. If that doesn't make Savio involved?

Besides, maybe Sky is willing to pay Savio more than Trek was paying.

Just don't demonize Savio. He agreed to the Trek contract. Then the new manager came along that tore apart all existing agreements to get some more money out of the deal. I don't really blame Sosa either. It's that Acquadro guy that's playing dirty games.
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22 Sep 2018 10:38

Gianni Savio is from cyclings past. He runs things on mafia logic, like most teams did then. He's one of the last, simply because he won't retire lol. Cycling contracts is the wild west, always has been and Savio is pretty good at it.
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Re:

22 Sep 2018 12:10

samhocking wrote:Gianni Savio is from cyclings past. He runs things on mafia logic, like most teams did then. He's one of the last, simply because he won't retire lol. Cycling contracts is the wild west, always has been and Savio is pretty good at it.

You don't get it. Read the tuttobici piece. Alberati facilitated a deal for Sosa with an amateur team and is his advisor/agent or whatever says the piece signed by his lawyer. Then an agent stepped in and Sosa changed his mind about what he had already agreed to. Savio has no part in the story other than he signed the rider to his team.
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22 Sep 2018 12:28

This happened before with Rujano when Acquadro badly advised him to break up with Savio and leave the 2006 Giro d'Italia! Later Jose himself fired Acquadro after Rujano and his Colombian manager were close to an agreement with Savio in fall 2010 and news broke that Acquadro in fact kept dealing with Movistar without authorization.

I don't get how people come to the conclusion that Savio is the one to blame here? Acquadro is a savvy weasel, nothing more! If you want to screw a Jewish Dutchman call him.
Last edited by staubsauger on 22 Sep 2018 17:49, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Re:

22 Sep 2018 14:16

ciranda wrote:
samhocking wrote:Gianni Savio is from cyclings past. He runs things on mafia logic, like most teams did then. He's one of the last, simply because he won't retire lol. Cycling contracts is the wild west, always has been and Savio is pretty good at it.

You don't get it. Read the tuttobici piece. Alberati facilitated a deal for Sosa with an amateur team and is his advisor/agent or whatever says the piece signed by his lawyer. Then an agent stepped in and Sosa changed his mind about what he had already agreed to. Savio has no part in the story other than he signed the rider to his team.


Savio gets a % of the riders new contract the rider(new team) has to pay as his development fee. It is in Savio's interest to get the biggest contract for his rider because the % is in the riders contract. However you cut it Savio gets money. He got it for Bernal + a release fee too let's not forget! Sosa is the same story simply the development bonus only.
I'm just saying there is an incentive for Savio to see his riders paid bigger contracts. Savio can very easily be ahead of the curve because he can inform another agent such as one with close links to Sky and tell him the stage of the paperwork. In Sosa's case Trek announced him as signed, yet they hadn't signed him. Sky's 5 years contract clearly gonna trump Treks two years, Savio gets more for his % from one simple phone call, Sosa gets told he can earn more money going to the other agent.
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05 Oct 2018 20:38

Interesting read about his future on the front page. Rider agents, if shady, can be absolute cancer. Especially for inexperienced young Pros.
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