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55th Tour de l'Avenir, 17/8 - 26/8 (2.Ncup)

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15 Aug 2018 12:07

I read some time ago that Schinnagel, leader of the german team, wants to go tor a Top 10. I can't really see it happening, but Bora seems to value him, giving him their only stagiaire spot. Could ofc be because of his background with their junior team but nontheless I keep an eye on him.
WKA311
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Re: 55th Tour de l'Avenir, 17/8 - 26/8 (2.Ncup)

15 Aug 2018 15:02

I started a custom team save in the new PCM a few weeks ago with a lot of young guys and I count five guys I included in the start list here.

Is it stupid to root for people based on PCM? Absolutely. It's also fun. So I'll enjoy seeing how McNulty, Garrison, Kanter, Bjerg, and Vanhoucke do.

EDIT: Make that six, I forgot Cherkasov.
User avatar Warhawk
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Re:

15 Aug 2018 17:00

WKA311 wrote:I read some time ago that Schinnagel, leader of the german team, wants to go tor a Top 10. I can't really see it happening, but Bora seems to value him, giving him their only stagiaire spot. Could ofc be because of his background with their junior team but nontheless I keep an eye on him.


Bora's interest in him has many reasons. First of all, they need to have some German neopros. They didn't take one last year, and only Ackermann two years ago. That's not enough for a German team. Especially one that aims in finding the next German GT winner (or at least contender - which is what they are trying with Buchmann and which is why they want Schachmann in their team).
The problem is that currently no German U23 rider seems to be THE rider. But eventually you have to try to be sure (and anyways even if he's not that good, he'll still be a good teammate, doubt he can be worse than Herklotz who were yet considered as very much promising). That's what Bora does with Schinnagel, first trying him as an intern. And if he's convincing enough, as a neopro.

There were not so many possibilities for Bora anyways. Who else could have they picked up? Zimmermann is the only one of the profile I can think of. And he's too young for now.
If then you think that Schinnagel raced for Denk's youth team earlier (like Zimmermann btw) and he was racing for Tirol (a team (and region) which apparently Bora has some relationships with, at least indirectly for the time being), he was the most obvious choice for Bora.
Beobachter
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15 Aug 2018 23:12

The statistics show that those who competed in U23 stage races win the Tour de l'Avenir less often. In the last 5 years, the exception was D.Gaudu who competed in the Ronde de l'Isard, Course de la Paix and Tour de l'Ain.
User avatar jfazendeiro
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Re: Re:

15 Aug 2018 23:41

Beobachter wrote:
WKA311 wrote:I read some time ago that Schinnagel, leader of the german team, wants to go tor a Top 10. I can't really see it happening, but Bora seems to value him, giving him their only stagiaire spot. Could ofc be because of his background with their junior team but nontheless I keep an eye on him.


Bora's interest in him has many reasons. First of all, they need to have some German neopros. They didn't take one last year, and only Ackermann two years ago. That's not enough for a German team. Especially one that aims in finding the next German GT winner (or at least contender - which is what they are trying with Buchmann and which is why they want Schachmann in their team).
The problem is that currently no German U23 rider seems to be THE rider. But eventually you have to try to be sure (and anyways even if he's not that good, he'll still be a good teammate, doubt he can be worse than Herklotz who were yet considered as very much promising). That's what Bora does with Schinnagel, first trying him as an intern. And if he's convincing enough, as a neopro.

There were not so many possibilities for Bora anyways. Who else could have they picked up? Zimmermann is the only one of the profile I can think of. And he's too young for now.
If then you think that Schinnagel raced for Denk's youth team earlier (like Zimmermann btw) and he was racing for Tirol (a team (and region) which apparently Bora has some relationships with, at least indirectly for the time being), he was the most obvious choice for Bora.


I tend to agree. Bora’s approach is pretty simple: they want all the best young German or Austrian talents and while they don’t get all of them, they do get most of them. In any given “mini generation” of espoirs they can’t control how good the potential intake is or what they specialize in. Some two or three year periods will see a bumper crop of talents, some not so much. Bora have a lot of good German speaking riders who are 25 or so. They don’t have anything really from the circa 22-23 year old cohort because there’s been less to sign. That means that they will have a good long look at less obvious guys, just in case there’s something there that hasn’t showed up as age group wins.

It’s a good time to be a germanophone cyclist. You won’t get the same opportunities to get a pro ride as a French kid or a Belgian, but there is at least one team that will pay very close attention if you show any potential at all. And they have a good development record.
Zinoviev Letter
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16 Aug 2018 10:46

I honestly thought that 35km stage was a time-trial...
The race seems hard, but the action is packed way too late and only has one mountain stage over 100km which seems ridiculous.
greenedge
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Re: Re:

16 Aug 2018 10:47

Zinoviev Letter wrote:
Beobachter wrote:
WKA311 wrote:I read some time ago that Schinnagel, leader of the german team, wants to go tor a Top 10. I can't really see it happening, but Bora seems to value him, giving him their only stagiaire spot. Could ofc be because of his background with their junior team but nontheless I keep an eye on him.


Bora's interest in him has many reasons. First of all, they need to have some German neopros. They didn't take one last year, and only Ackermann two years ago. That's not enough for a German team. Especially one that aims in finding the next German GT winner (or at least contender - which is what they are trying with Buchmann and which is why they want Schachmann in their team).
The problem is that currently no German U23 rider seems to be THE rider. But eventually you have to try to be sure (and anyways even if he's not that good, he'll still be a good teammate, doubt he can be worse than Herklotz who were yet considered as very much promising). That's what Bora does with Schinnagel, first trying him as an intern. And if he's convincing enough, as a neopro.

There were not so many possibilities for Bora anyways. Who else could have they picked up? Zimmermann is the only one of the profile I can think of. And he's too young for now.
If then you think that Schinnagel raced for Denk's youth team earlier (like Zimmermann btw) and he was racing for Tirol (a team (and region) which apparently Bora has some relationships with, at least indirectly for the time being), he was the most obvious choice for Bora.


I tend to agree. Bora’s approach is pretty simple: they want all the best young German or Austrian talents and while they don’t get all of them, they do get most of them. In any given “mini generation” of espoirs they can’t control how good the potential intake is or what they specialize in. Some two or three year periods will see a bumper crop of talents, some not so much. Bora have a lot of good German speaking riders who are 25 or so. They don’t have anything really from the circa 22-23 year old cohort because there’s been less to sign. That means that they will have a good long look at less obvious guys, just in case there’s something there that hasn’t showed up as age group wins.

It’s a good time to be a germanophone cyclist. You won’t get the same opportunities to get a pro ride as a French kid or a Belgian, but there is at least one team that will pay very close attention if you show any potential at all. And they have a good development record.


+1
I would add things are not so easy as it might look at first glance. Bora signs people they know. The young riders that are the most likely to be signed are indeed followed quite closely by Bora (either directly or indirectly), guys from the Austrian-Bavaria region get then a big advantage, because it's easier for the people at Bora to get to know the young riders and know what is their value.
Currently, it looks like if you want to get a spot at Bora, you better have to follow the path Auto Eder Bayern - Tirol Cycling. Which is perfectly fine to me since it means a better way to develop the riders!
However, it might also be harder for other "outsiders" to get in. Look at Rutsch, Rapp or Steimle, both three of them are more than decent riders, and it wouldn't be a shame if they were to become pros. But I'm afraid they won't be chosen since they're less linked to the team that Schinnagel, Zimmermann or Porzner are through Tirol and Auto Eder.

The same also works that way with Sunweb. Go to their development team as a German (or even as an Austrian, i.e. Gall) and you'll get a pretty good shot at becoming pro later with Sunweb. Excepted if you're really good, you won't be taken by Sunweb if you don't come from their farm team.

All of that to say it's not so easy to turn pro. Obviously, if one is insanely good, there will be no problem. But if one is just good, not to say average, things are much harder. Better join Tirol for sure! (or Sunweb Development is the goal of the rider)
But even that might not be enough since Bora takes few neopros
Beobachter
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16 Aug 2018 15:57

Only the last two stages will be televised.
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17 Aug 2018 01:16

How would you order in terms of favoritism A.Vlasov, J.Almeida, S.Williams, T.Pogacar, M.Inkelaar, J.Vingegaard and M.Hirschi? What are your rankings after I.R.Sosa and B.Mcnulty?
User avatar jfazendeiro
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Re:

17 Aug 2018 06:27

jfazendeiro wrote:How would you order in terms of favoritism A.Vlasov, J.Almeida, S.Williams, T.Pogacar, M.Inkelaar, J.Vingegaard and M.Hirschi? What are your rankings after I.R.Sosa and B.Mcnulty?


It's hard to tell. The line-up is brilliant.

We have the Top 9 riders of the Baby Giro starting this race. Plus a lot of the top riders from GP Priessnitz, Ronde de l'Isard and Valle Aosta. Plus those dark horses like Weldu. I would rate Vlasov and Pogacar a bit higher than the rest. Sosa of course will be extremely hard to beat.
Max Rockatansky
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17 Aug 2018 09:21

So many flat stages and such a poor sprinting field. Kanter should beat them on a regular basis with Thijssen, Dainese, Stokbro, Groves and Touzé as the only competitors.
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Re:

17 Aug 2018 11:42

Bye Bye Bicycle wrote:So many flat stages and such a poor sprinting field. Kanter should beat them on a regular basis with Thijssen, Dainese, Stokbro, Groves and Touzé as the only competitors.


That would require Kanter winning a race that is not the U23 german champs. But I agree with you, he should at least take a stage.
WKA311
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Re:

17 Aug 2018 12:48

Bye Bye Bicycle wrote:So many flat stages and such a poor sprinting field. Kanter should beat them on a regular basis with Thijssen, Dainese, Stokbro, Groves and Touzé as the only competitors.

Banaszek was already in the mix last year (2nd only behind Hodeg on one of the stages) so I could see him doing well.
Wij steunen hem, tenzij hij niet genoeg fietst.
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17 Aug 2018 14:29

Kaden Groves is fast and won the last stage of Qingdao Lake.
yaco
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17 Aug 2018 14:32

Kanter wins.
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18 Aug 2018 16:18

Alan Riou (France) wins stage 2 from the breakaway.
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19 Aug 2018 11:30

Areruya is going to ride the team time trial on his own at this rate. :o Every rider from Rwanda but Areruya crashed yesterday, as they finished in 143rd, 152nd, 153rd, 154th and 155th position, all 15 minutes back or more. Today, one of them got dropped after 8 kilometers and has DNFed, while two others just got dropped with 160k to go.
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19 Aug 2018 14:29

Damien Touzé (France) wins stage 3 from a strong breakaway.
User avatar Alexandre B.
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19 Aug 2018 15:34

Hirschi and Stannard gained five seconds on the rest of the favourites.
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Re:

19 Aug 2018 15:37

DNP-Old wrote:Areruya is going to ride the team time trial on his own at this rate. :o Every rider from Rwanda but Areruya crashed yesterday, as they finished in 143rd, 152nd, 153rd, 154th and 155th position, all 15 minutes back or more. Today, one of them got dropped after 8 kilometers and has DNFed, while two others just got dropped with 160k to go.

Only 2 Rwanda riders left, Areruya and Mugisha. :D
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