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New Chinese World Tour Team

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New Chinese World Tour Team

09 Oct 2018 10:39

Apologies if there is already a thread on this, i couldn't see one

https://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/racing/new-chinese-worldtour-team-will-bigger-budget-team-sky-according-ceo-396690

Interesting to see what happens if a team with a bigger budget than Sky comes into the World Tour and doesn't have the same sort of success what people will say? I am still in the camp that money and success although linked are not the be all and end all. Just look at a team such as Quikstep compared to a bigger budget team such asKathusha

The article also references that the investment is being sought, not already in place, so I will take it with a pinch of salt, many people have made grand promises that haven't come to fruition in the past
jarvo
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09 Oct 2018 10:47

Mitchelton Scott have been working the Chinese market for a few years without success. My understanding is they thought they had a sponsor a few months ago which fell through at the last minute. You only have to look at the T.J.Sports case to see its a fickle market.
yaco
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09 Oct 2018 10:50

Bigger budget than Sky

So they have infinite + 1 of the moneys
Veni, Vidi, Kirby

I came, I saw, I was dead wrong as per usual
User avatar Red Rick
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09 Oct 2018 11:25

The concept will be exactly the same as Sky. Basically fund the hell out of National & World Tour team to grow grass-roots cycling and general public cycling, where the real marketing returns are found in cycling these days.
samhocking
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Re: New Chinese World Tour Team

09 Oct 2018 11:33

Now you do remember that chinese invented fireworks, they first appeared in China during the Song Dynasty (960–1279), in the early age of gunpowder. They did not appeared at first in Tour de France 1903 or at Vlaanderens mooiste in 1913, you do know that? Chinese can produce fireworks at will! :D

They've been here, for a while, and they may just have the budjet if they will. Prolly tad bigger than n+1.

And they have Shane Sutton. :cool:
memyselfandI
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09 Oct 2018 11:38

Lappartient - he says yes to infinite Chinese budget to beat Team Sky

Image
samhocking
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Re: New Chinese World Tour Team

09 Oct 2018 12:46

jarvo wrote:Apologies if there is already a thread on this, i couldn't see one

https://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/racing/new-chinese-worldtour-team-will-bigger-budget-team-sky-according-ceo-396690

Interesting to see what happens if a team with a bigger budget than Sky comes into the World Tour and doesn't have the same sort of success what people will say? I am still in the camp that money and success although linked are not the be all and end all. Just look at a team such as Quikstep compared to a bigger budget team such asKathusha

The article also references that the investment is being sought, not already in place, so I will take it with a pinch of salt, many people have made grand promises that haven't come to fruition in the past


Offtopic, but Katusha is not a big money team anymore. That ended after Purito retired and the team got a swiss license which lead them to go more international because of the russian backing ending.
WKA311
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09 Oct 2018 12:52

2010-2012 when Wiggins came through to win Tour there were a few teams with allegedly bigger budgets than Sky and Katusha, BMC & Tinkoff were the teams assumed to have bigger budgets. Problem we have is it's really only Sky, AG2R and a couple of other teams that even publish their budget. The vast majority are pure guesses simply based on estimated total rider wages.
samhocking
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Re: New Chinese World Tour Team

09 Oct 2018 13:04

WKA311 wrote:
jarvo wrote:Apologies if there is already a thread on this, i couldn't see one

https://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/racing/new-chinese-worldtour-team-will-bigger-budget-team-sky-according-ceo-396690

Interesting to see what happens if a team with a bigger budget than Sky comes into the World Tour and doesn't have the same sort of success what people will say? I am still in the camp that money and success although linked are not the be all and end all. Just look at a team such as Quikstep compared to a bigger budget team such asKathusha

The article also references that the investment is being sought, not already in place, so I will take it with a pinch of salt, many people have made grand promises that haven't come to fruition in the past


Offtopic, but Katusha is not a big money team anymore. That ended after Purito retired and the team got a swiss license which lead them to go more international because of the russian backing ending.

Yes and it's not just the money, their decline started when Ekimov steped down and was replaced by Azevedo.
That's one of the reasons why they have signed Dirk Demol as a ds for the next season, Azevedo will focus more on being the gm of the team.
User avatar Mayomaniac
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Re:

09 Oct 2018 17:33

samhocking wrote:2010-2012 when Wiggins came through to win Tour there were a few teams with allegedly bigger budgets than Sky and Katusha, BMC & Tinkoff were the teams assumed to have bigger budgets. Problem we have is it's really only Sky, AG2R and a couple of other teams that even publish their budget. The vast majority are pure guesses simply based on estimated total rider wages.

The problem is also that when Sky were at that stage there were also some very blurred lines with the publicly-funded British Cycling with several people in dual roles. Cope serving as a motorpace trainer for Wiggins and a courier/patsy for Team Sky while officially on the payroll to train women who he had no idea what races existed for is a good example; even divorced from the Clinic implications, that's some A-grade siphoning off of funds that means the published accounts can never quite tell the full story.
User avatar Libertine Seguros
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Re: New Chinese World Tour Team

09 Oct 2018 18:08

Nice try, but as we saw with Deloite, in practice, all BC services, property and staff hours were invoiced to Tour Racing Ltd so passed through the accounts. One could actually make the argument it was in fact BC who gained as much from the Sky money as Sky did by having access to trackside staff and knowledge to win Tour de France. In fact Deloittes conclusion in their report read "It determined that there was a benefit to Olympic and Paralympic riders from their relationship with the Sky programme".
Obviously today Sky simply moved across the road and set-up the same shop at MIHP anyway so all Sky's and BC new sports science gets shared via/though MIHP anyway and MIHP Invoice TR Ltd instead.
samhocking
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10 Oct 2018 11:33

Does anyone actually believe this scheme is real?

The website contains more typos than one of my posts and several pages 404ed on me. More importantly, for a scheme allegedly aiming to raise money from Chinese investors, the site is all in English.

Kay seems to be a 30-something estate agent (among other jobs) who graduated from Liverpool John Moore's. He appears to have no real knowledge of China - much of his scheme (the bit about selling property in China) is pretty much what Dalian Wanda was aiming to do, until Wang Jianlin fell out of favour with the authorities and was 'encouraged' to divest large parts of his newly built empire. Where is the need for an outsider with limited knowledge and no experience of the sport's operation when locals are already on the case?

The fact that Kay was saying a 2019 launch and a 2024 win until Brian Smith corrected him and said a 2020 launch and 2025 win doesn't impress much.

The Rothchild World Cycling Series proposal had more thought put into it. Bjarne Riis's plan to revolutionise cycling's economic model had more thought put into it. Hell, even Rick Delaney's plan to get rich quick form cycling had more thought put into it.

Looking at Kay on the UK's CRO site, there doesn't seem to be much to him, does there?

Anyone looked at his LinkedIn profile yet?
User avatar fmk_RoI
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Re:

10 Oct 2018 11:42

Red Rick wrote:Bigger budget than Sky

So they have infinite + 1 of the moneys
In the short term - 2020 through 2025 - he'll need in excess of £150m from his main investors to compete with Sky on a financial level, as he claims he will, and that's assuming he's as good as Sky at raising money from secondary sponsors, appearance fees and other revenue streams (a bloody big assumption, that). However, he's also talking of a development team. The Katusha model - and given he's nicked his Global Cycling Project name from Igor Makorov's outfit the Katusha model needs looking at - involved feeder teams at all levels: pro-conti, conti, women, as well as U23 (IIRC). Each of those teams is cheap enough, but that's still more millions to raise on top of what is needed for the WT team.
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10 Oct 2018 12:56

Can't wait for their battle against Fernando Alonso's team at the 2020 Tour de France.
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Re:

10 Oct 2018 15:01

Red Rick wrote:Bigger budget than Sky

So they have infinite + 1 of the monkeys

but do they have a cage to keep them in?
Tim Booth
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Re: New Chinese World Tour Team

11 Oct 2018 13:25

They might want to start investing in their own races before they set their minds on conquering the cycling world. They can start with promoting their own races. I know some races are organized to showcase the landscape, but the roadside presence at Taihu Lake is embarrassing. I counted 12 people watching at roadside who weren’t obvious media.
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Re: New Chinese World Tour Team

11 Oct 2018 17:06

perico wrote:They might want to start investing in their own races before they set their minds on conquering the cycling world. They can start with promoting their own races. I know some races are organized to showcase the landscape, but the roadside presence at Taihu Lake is embarrassing. I counted 12 people watching at roadside who weren’t obvious media.
'They' are already doing this. GCP, on the other hand, is an English project. It currently has no Chinese input and no Chinese support. It's currently an English estate agent's dream, egged on by Brian Smith's need for a pension and Shane Sutton's need for redemption.
Last edited by fmk_RoI on 11 Oct 2018 17:27, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar fmk_RoI
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11 Oct 2018 17:14

If they want to win the TDF in 2025 with a Chinese rider, that guy has to be 17 now at the least.
User avatar Logic-is-your-friend
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Re:

11 Oct 2018 17:30

Logic-is-your-friend wrote:If they want to win the TDF in 2025 with a Chinese rider, that guy has to be 17 now at the least.
Your point being ... what?
User avatar fmk_RoI
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Re:

11 Oct 2018 20:38

fmk_RoI wrote:Does anyone actually believe this scheme is real?

The website contains more typos than one of my posts and several pages 404ed on me. More importantly, for a scheme allegedly aiming to raise money from Chinese investors, the site is all in English.

Kay seems to be a 30-something estate agent (among other jobs) who graduated from Liverpool John Moore's. He appears to have no real knowledge of China - much of his scheme (the bit about selling property in China) is pretty much what Dalian Wanda was aiming to do, until Wang Jianlin fell out of favour with the authorities and was 'encouraged' to divest large parts of his newly built empire. Where is the need for an outsider with limited knowledge and no experience of the sport's operation when locals are already on the case?

The fact that Kay was saying a 2019 launch and a 2024 win until Brian Smith corrected him and said a 2020 launch and 2025 win doesn't impress much.

The Rothchild World Cycling Series proposal had more thought put into it. Bjarne Riis's plan to revolutionise cycling's economic model had more thought put into it. Hell, even Rick Delaney's plan to get rich quick form cycling had more thought put into it.

Looking at Kay on the UK's CRO site, there doesn't seem to be much to him, does there?

Anyone looked at his LinkedIn profile yet?


Tim Kay has recently been made Senior Business Development Manager at PCCW GLOBAL Limited. PCCW GLOBAL part own Hong Kong Telecommunications which are huge in China, but they also are parent company of many others too. PCCW themselves are owned by Pacific Century Group. We are talking multiple $billions, not $millions companies under PCCW.
There's so many possibilities who the sponsor might be. You've got HKT which would be the obvious one (like BT in UK I guess), CSL Mobile & Sun Mobile which would be a bit like say O2 or Vodaphone, MOOV which is like Spotify, Viu, now TV etc which are TV/OTT.
samhocking
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