Team Time Trials

[The Hitch]

No an ITT forces the climbers to attack. A TTT can favour a climber as much as an ITT. It doesn't depend at all on the individual's strength, it depends on 8 other guys in his team.

And on whether or not their wheel punctures too or they crash. 2 domestiques crash on a road stage you're out 2 doms so follow the leaders.

2 doms crash in a ttt, well in the case of.some of warped sick fantasies I've been reading about here -70k, you lose minutes and.minutes and just save yourself for a stage. Hooray what a great impact on the gc:rolleyes:

[wwabbit]

If it's such a team sport, as half you guys seem to be banging on, then why isn't the Teams competition at a grand tour a big deal?

Probably because the Teams competition at a GT isn't really a Teams competition, but a competition between the 3rd best rider in the teams.

[richo36]

A different idea,

Have The TTT as a prologue. You can have the distance at what ever you like, I would like a nice 60km TTT. However the result has no effect on GC. So That way we get to see a TTT but no one who is on a weaker team will get disadvantage.

But to make it competitive so teams actually race:
1.extra cq points will be awarded to the winning team
2.Time difference counts in team classifaction
3. Team who wins gets to wear the yellow jersey on the first day.

Thoughts?

[guncha]

A different idea,

Have The TTT as a prologue. You can have the distance at what ever you like, I would like a nice 60km TTT. However the result has no effect on GC. So That way we get to see a TTT but no one who is on a weaker team will get disadvantage.

But to make it competitive so teams actually race:
1.extra cq points will be awarded to the winning team
2.Time difference counts in team classifaction
3. Team who wins gets to wear the yellow jersey on the first day.

Thoughts?

I would not watch it because a stage with no effect on GC makes no sense. Who cares about team classification? Not me...

[SafeBet]

You want me mention why cycling is also a team sport?

Is this for real?

I don't see no teams in the GC.
A team event affecting an individual ranking is beyond any rational argument. In any sport.

[42x16ss]

Why not have a World Tour classified TTT the day (or even two days) before the start of a GT, similar to the old Eindhoven TTT? Just as a curtain raiser, with WT points going to each of the teams as they place. IMO it could be a good chance for teams to get a psychological edge over competitors before the race even starts and teams with a lot of strong rouleurs but no real GC threat can go all out for WT points.

Thoughts?

[Capablanca and me]

And what happens when the best climbers are the ones who gain time - often the case as they have the best teams.

You clearly haven't thought this through:rolleyes:

often is the keyword , and yes the bests had the best or top team

teams gets the invitations, not individuals, a rider alone would be "lost"
and every team has 8 months to practice this beautfull discipline for the GT
TTT is a good possibility, IMO we need TTT

[the asian]

TTT should have no place in GTs. It should have no bearing to the placement of an Individual rider.
I agree that it's a beautiful discipline to watch though,and hence the new world TTT championship for trade teams is laudable.

Regarding GTs, sadly the race organizers, sponsors and perhaps most team seem to want TTTs. However I'm satisfied that almost all TTTs are around the 20-30KM length and certainly I don't see them returning to TTTs over 50KMs.

The 2009 Tour was the final straw.

[Leadbelly]

Have to say I haven't read all the thread, so apologies if I just repeat what others have said, but I quite enjoy a TTT. As long as it's not ridiculously long I don't see the problem.

The key word, I think, is variety. If we're talking just about GTs maybe restrict their use to 1 GT per year and make sure that the courses are as varied as possible - hilly, pan flat, technical or exposed ones on the coast.

One other point to take into account is equipment. I noticed a big improvement in Katusha's TTT (and, going by J-Rod, in TT in general) this year and I was informed by people on this forum that it was down to their amazing new bikes (can't remember the manufacturer). So maybe it would level the playing field a bit if everyone was to ride road bikes in TT disciplines and make it more about the legs and less about the bikes.

[Magnus]

But with the TTT so early, it's hard to then just remove it like that, because guys like Evans, Sastre and co wouldn't have been forced to attempt doomed breaks that caused them to melt down completely, because a guy like Evans would typically be up there in the mix after the ITTs. Guys like the Schlecks would have time to make up, thus making the mountain stages interesting. The TTT reversed this, leaving the guys who needed to make the time up to be the ones who were least well-suited to it.

This is irrelevant, as once riders are out of GC contention they often start chasing stage wins. It's easier to win stages when you've lost big times, so it's not uncommon for them to finish an early stage with the autobus.

Sastre and Evans was 30-40 seconds behind Frank Schleck after the TTT.
It's not like they were forced to **** up because of that.

[Ryo Hazuki]

Its a simple.matter of right and wrong.

Ttts are the equivalent of giving some riders a huge headstart over others.

They also often ruin the spectacle- eg when Andy schleck gains time in the ttt meaning he neutralizes the mountains, and idiots like rcs aso and unipublic use it instead of tts which would actually liven the race up.

it's not an organisers fault teams suck in a ttt. the teams should better prepare for it.

[sbbefc]

Replace short prologs with it, and not too long

[The Hitch]

often is the keyword , and yes the bests had the best or top team

teams gets the invitations, not individuals, a rider alone would be "lost"
and every team has 8 months to practice this beautfull discipline for the GT
TTT is a good possibility, IMO we need TTT

Ah the old -but they can practise.

I have no idea how you people always miss this in these discussions, but the strong teams also.practise the ttt meaning they are just as much stronger than the weak teams as they would be if there was no practise.

[The Hitch]

Probably because the Teams competition at a GT isn't really a Teams competition, but a competition between the 3rd best rider in the teams.

And the ttt is a competition between the 5th best riders in the team.

[Magnus]

Ah the old -but they can practise.

I have no idea how you people always miss this in these discussions, but the strong teams also.practise the ttt meaning they are just as much stronger than the weak teams as they would be if there was no practise.

And I guess you missed how Credit Agricole won the TTT.

[abbaskip]

it's not an organisers fault teams suck in a ttt. the teams should better prepare for it.

Yes, but you seem to be missing the point. They should be preparing to have the best individual for the GC, not the best team for a TTT. It's not about preparation, teams fill their teams with specialist TTTers, as it's essentially headstart, without the GC rider having to do the work himself.

[abbaskip]

And I guess you missed how Credit Agricole won the TTT.

Voigt, O'Grady, Julich, Hushovd, Vaughters...hardly slouches now, were they?

The best riders in a TTT aren't necessarily the same as those in an ITT. Strong, fast riders suit it perfectly, as they do a big turn then swing up and recover. So Thor and Stuey are perfect, then you have a backbone of JV, BJ and Voigt...

Even so, practice or team strength is irrelevant, it's an individual classification, so should be won with individual stages.

[abbaskip]

And the ttt is a competition between the 5th best riders in the team.

Exactly. The teams classification is all about the team consistently having members finish near the front. It can't take into account too many riders, or teams get hurt way too much from riders pulling out.

It's not about the third best rider as was stated, it's the three best riders each stage, which can be very different from a rolling stage, flat stage, mountain stage or ITT. And the fact that it's the three, not just third is a huge difference too. If one is in a break away and gains ten minutes, that's very different than the teams third best rider that stage.

The team's classification is a good way to determine the most consistent team. That's what it's there for.

GC is for individuals. Teams help them, by sheltering them through hard stages etc, but it still should be down to the individual. The TTT is not.

Finally, this ridiculous argument about teams qualifying for races, not riders. It's the points riders earn, in individual races that get them there. And usually individual riders that earn a team a wild card.

[cineteq]

Even so, practice or team strength is irrelevant, it's an individual classification, so should be won with individual stages.

So it's okay for Evans, BMC to lose 1.30 min. in Nice's TTT. He'll get it back later. Gotcha.

[Netserk]

I can accept a TTT in a GT IF it were with individual timing. It would also make it a lot more tactical and interesting to follow. This way a strong team can help the leader, but a weak team can't slow the leader down.