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The pedaling technique thread

Moderator: King Boonen

30 Jan 2016 10:45

That was the summary statement to the Gimmickcranks debate. The solution to a problem that never existed.
Hamish Ferguson
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Re:

31 Jan 2016 15:36

CoachFergie wrote:That was the summary statement to the Gimmickcranks debate. The solution to a problem that never existed.


If Berend, yourself and all other experts are incapable of realizing that the (11-1) idling dead spot sector is a problem in pedalling, a serious problem that can be completely eliminated, how can they know what other problems do or do not exist in pedalling.
backdoor
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Re: Re:

31 Jan 2016 19:28

backdoor wrote:
CoachFergie wrote:That was the summary statement to the Gimmickcranks debate. The solution to a problem that never existed.


If Berend, yourself and all other experts are incapable of realizing that the (11-1) idling dead spot sector is a problem in pedalling, a serious problem that can be completely eliminated, how can they know what other problems do or do not exist in pedalling.


If the problem existed it could be easily measured and if a better method was available this could be easily measured.

Present data rather than your opinion!
Hamish Ferguson
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Re: Re:

02 Feb 2016 08:36

backdoor wrote:
CoachFergie wrote:That was the summary statement to the Gimmickcranks debate. The solution to a problem that never existed.


If Berend, yourself and all other experts are incapable of realizing that the (11-1) idling dead spot sector is a problem in pedalling, a serious problem that can be completely eliminated, how can they know what other problems do or do not exist in pedalling.


I think you're trying to appeal to my common sense.

That's a mistake. I ignore my own common sense routinely, on purpose. It's full of bad advice. :p

You should try to appeal to my analytical sense if you want to convince me.
berend
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Basic physics / biomechanics

02 Feb 2016 16:12

backdoor wrote:experts are incapable of realizing that the (11-1) idling dead spot sector is a problem in pedalling, a serious problem that can be completely eliminated, how can they know what other problems do or do not exist in pedalling.


Lets review basic physics shall we? Power = force x velocity or in an angular system Power = torque x angular velocity. With me so far?
The hips and knees flex and extend during cycling. At the transition from flexing to extending angular velocity is zero.
Question for the class: If angular velocity is zero what is power?
Zero, right! Good students!
Now, lets move to biomechanics. The huge majority of cycling power is produced by muscles that span the hip and knee. Where do you suppose the knee and hip joints transition from flexing to extending? Could it be somewhere in the range of 11-1?
YES, right again! In a group of cyclists we tested pedaling at 250w and 90rpm the transition for the knee occurred at 340 degrees and for the hip at 6 degrees.
Putting these two concepts together, there must necessarily be a point in the cycle with zero power when the knee and hip transition from flexing to extending.
So, if the joint angular velocities must go though a zero point, how do you propose to produce power there? Of course its only zero for an instant but on either side of that transition its low. So power is some joint moment x a low joint angular velocity. Would that give us high power or low power?
Right again, low power. Well done class!!
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Re: Basic physics / biomechanics

02 Feb 2016 19:33

PhitBoy wrote:
backdoor wrote:experts are incapable of realizing that the (11-1) idling dead spot sector is a problem in pedalling, a serious problem that can be completely eliminated, how can they know what other problems do or do not exist in pedalling.


Lets review basic physics shall we? Power = force x velocity or in an angular system Power = torque x angular velocity. With me so far?
The hips and knees flex and extend during cycling. At the transition from flexing to extending angular velocity is zero.
Question for the class: If angular velocity is zero what is power?
Zero, right! Good students!
Now, lets move to biomechanics. The huge majority of cycling power is produced by muscles that span the hip and knee. Where do you suppose the knee and hip joints transition from flexing to extending? Could it be somewhere in the range of 11-1?
YES, right again! In a group of cyclists we tested pedaling at 250w and 90rpm the transition for the knee occurred at 340 degrees and for the hip at 6 degrees.
Putting these two concepts together, there must necessarily be a point in the cycle with zero power when the knee and hip transition from flexing to extending.
So, if the joint angular velocities must go though a zero point, how do you propose to produce power there? Of course its only zero for an instant but on either side of that transition its low. So power is some joint moment x a low joint angular velocity. Would that give us high power or low power?
Right again, low power. Well done class!!


Yay Science, thanks Teach!!!
Hamish Ferguson
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02 Feb 2016 21:16

Another study on one legged pedalling V assisted pedalling to measure joint forces. Seems these claims made by some are actually very easy to test. You wonder why they cower away from doing so!

http://journals.humankinetics.com/jsr-current-issue/jsr-volume-25-issue-1-february/joint-torques-and-patellofemoral-force-during-single-leg-assisted-and-unassisted-cycling
Hamish Ferguson
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Re: Basic physics / biomechanics

02 Feb 2016 22:19

PhitBoy wrote:...
Lets review basic physics shall we? Power = force x velocity or in an angular system Power = torque x angular velocity. With me so far?
The hips and knees flex and extend during cycling. At the transition from flexing to extending angular velocity is zero.
...

-------------------------------
Yes, reasonable explanation, but I needed a little extra concentration to understand the different concepts of -
Rotational rate of the crank (it's angular velocity?), which stays nearly constant during each full rotation.
and
Angular velocity of the knee and hip joints (which does change significantly during a full crank rotation) and which directly affects the amount of torque being produced in each section of a full crank rotation.

Even though the foot and pedal continue to move at a nearly constant rate during a rotation, the amount of torque being produced in each section varies widely. Positive torque (other than from rotational momentum) is produced only when a force on the pedal attempts to maintain or increase the rotational rate of the crank.

p.s. I'm just 'nit-picking' at the detail-level wording, NOT at the basic concepts.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA
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Re: Basic physics / biomechanics

03 Feb 2016 17:28

PhitBoy wrote:
backdoor wrote:experts are incapable of realizing that the (11-1) idling dead spot sector is a problem in pedalling, a serious problem that can be completely eliminated, how can they know what other problems do or do not exist in pedalling.


Lets review basic physics shall we? Power = force x velocity or in an angular system Power = torque x angular velocity. With me so far?
The hips and knees flex and extend during cycling. At the transition from flexing to extending angular velocity is zero.
Question for the class: If angular velocity is zero what is power?
Zero, right! Good students!
Now, lets move to biomechanics. The huge majority of cycling power is produced by muscles that span the hip and knee. Where do you suppose the knee and hip joints transition from flexing to extending? Could it be somewhere in the range of 11-1?
YES, right again! In a group of cyclists we tested pedaling at 250w and 90rpm the transition for the knee occurred at 340 degrees and for the hip at 6 degrees.
Putting these two concepts together, there must necessarily be a point in the cycle with zero power when the knee and hip transition from flexing to extending.
So, if the joint angular velocities must go though a zero point, how do you propose to produce power there? Of course its only zero for an instant but on either side of that transition its low. So power is some joint moment x a low joint angular velocity. Would that give us high power or low power?
Right again, low power. Well done class!!


Completely different biomechanics were used by Anquetil for TT's. Yes there is zero power for an instant, that's why I always refer to the dead spot sector (60deg) and not the dead spot. Unlike the natural mashing style, in the semi circular style a triple transition takes place at 11 o'c, hip and knee from flexing to extension and simultaneous changeover of maximal force application from one leg to the other as the momentum of the downward leg at 5 is transferred to the power application leg at 11. On one 30 deg. side of that zero power instant at 11 is the power that is being applied by the down leg between 4 and 5 o'c, on the other side is hip power, giving the same power as that which can be applied between 2 and 3 o'c. This maximal torque at 12 continues from 12 to 3 o'c. Obviously in both techniques the hip is being used in very different ways. Natural pedalling is done unconsciously, total concentration is required for this triple transition at 11 o'c.
backdoor
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Re: Basic physics / biomechanics

03 Feb 2016 18:08

backdoor wrote:
PhitBoy wrote:
backdoor wrote:experts are incapable of realizing that the (11-1) idling dead spot sector is a problem in pedalling, a serious problem that can be completely eliminated, how can they know what other problems do or do not exist in pedalling.


Lets review basic physics shall we? Power = force x velocity or in an angular system Power = torque x angular velocity. With me so far?
The hips and knees flex and extend during cycling. At the transition from flexing to extending angular velocity is zero.
Question for the class: If angular velocity is zero what is power?
Zero, right! Good students!
Now, lets move to biomechanics. The huge majority of cycling power is produced by muscles that span the hip and knee. Where do you suppose the knee and hip joints transition from flexing to extending? Could it be somewhere in the range of 11-1?
YES, right again! In a group of cyclists we tested pedaling at 250w and 90rpm the transition for the knee occurred at 340 degrees and for the hip at 6 degrees.
Putting these two concepts together, there must necessarily be a point in the cycle with zero power when the knee and hip transition from flexing to extending.
So, if the joint angular velocities must go though a zero point, how do you propose to produce power there? Of course its only zero for an instant but on either side of that transition its low. So power is some joint moment x a low joint angular velocity. Would that give us high power or low power?
Right again, low power. Well done class!!


Completely different biomechanics were used by Anquetil for TT's. Yes there is zero power for an instant, that's why I always refer to the dead spot sector (60deg) and not the dead spot. Unlike the natural mashing style, in the semi circular style a triple transition takes place at 11 o'c, hip and knee from flexing to extension and simultaneous changeover of maximal force application from one leg to the other as the momentum of the downward leg at 5 is transferred to the power application leg at 11. On one 30 deg. side of that zero power instant at 11 is the power that is being applied by the down leg between 4 and 5 o'c, on the other side is hip power, giving the same power as that which can be applied between 2 and 3 o'c. This maximal torque at 12 continues from 12 to 3 o'c. Obviously in both techniques the hip is being used in very different ways. Natural pedalling is done unconsciously, total concentration is required for this triple transition at 11 o'c.

PS: As I see it, the hip is used to apply maximal forward torque, the thigh is used to apply downward torque.
backdoor
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Re: Basic physics / biomechanics

03 Feb 2016 22:37

backdoor wrote:
PhitBoy wrote:
backdoor wrote:experts are incapable of realizing that the (11-1) idling dead spot sector is a problem in pedalling, a serious problem that can be completely eliminated, how can they know what other problems do or do not exist in pedalling.


Lets review basic physics shall we? Power = force x velocity or in an angular system Power = torque x angular velocity. With me so far?
The hips and knees flex and extend during cycling. At the transition from flexing to extending angular velocity is zero.
Question for the class: If angular velocity is zero what is power?
Zero, right! Good students!
Now, lets move to biomechanics. The huge majority of cycling power is produced by muscles that span the hip and knee. Where do you suppose the knee and hip joints transition from flexing to extending? Could it be somewhere in the range of 11-1?
YES, right again! In a group of cyclists we tested pedaling at 250w and 90rpm the transition for the knee occurred at 340 degrees and for the hip at 6 degrees.
Putting these two concepts together, there must necessarily be a point in the cycle with zero power when the knee and hip transition from flexing to extending.
So, if the joint angular velocities must go though a zero point, how do you propose to produce power there? Of course its only zero for an instant but on either side of that transition its low. So power is some joint moment x a low joint angular velocity. Would that give us high power or low power?
Right again, low power. Well done class!!


Completely different biomechanics were used by Anquetil for TT's. Yes there is zero power for an instant, that's why I always refer to the dead spot sector (60deg) and not the dead spot. Unlike the natural mashing style, in the semi circular style a triple transition takes place at 11 o'c, hip and knee from flexing to extension and simultaneous changeover of maximal force application from one leg to the other as the momentum of the downward leg at 5 is transferred to the power application leg at 11. On one 30 deg. side of that zero power instant at 11 is the power that is being applied by the down leg between 4 and 5 o'c, on the other side is hip power, giving the same power as that which can be applied between 2 and 3 o'c. This maximal torque at 12 continues from 12 to 3 o'c. Obviously in both techniques the hip is being used in very different ways. Natural pedalling is done unconsciously, total concentration is required for this triple transition at 11 o'c.


And your evidence for this is???
Hamish Ferguson
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Re: Basic physics / biomechanics

03 Feb 2016 22:57

All I can say is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1n5CQe1krI

backdoor wrote:Unlike the natural mashing style, in the semi circular style a triple transition takes place at 11 o'c, hip and knee from flexing to extension and simultaneous changeover of maximal force application from one leg to the other as the momentum of the downward leg at 5 is transferred to the power application leg at 11. On one 30 deg. side of that zero power instant at 11 is the power that is being applied by the down leg between 4 and 5 o'c, on the other side is hip power, giving the same power as that which can be applied between 2 and 3 o'c. This maximal torque at 12 continues from 12 to 3 o'c. Obviously in both techniques the hip is being used in very different ways. Natural pedalling is done unconsciously, total concentration is required for this triple transition at 11 o'c.
PhitBoy
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03 Feb 2016 23:22

Hamish Ferguson
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Re: Basic physics / biomechanics

04 Feb 2016 10:24

CoachFergie wrote:
backdoor wrote:
PhitBoy wrote:
backdoor wrote:experts are incapable of realizing that the (11-1) idling dead spot sector is a problem in pedalling, a serious problem that can be completely eliminated, how can they know what other problems do or do not exist in pedalling.


Lets review basic physics shall we? Power = force x velocity or in an angular system Power = torque x angular velocity. With me so far?
The hips and knees flex and extend during cycling. At the transition from flexing to extending angular velocity is zero.
Question for the class: If angular velocity is zero what is power?
Zero, right! Good students!
Now, lets move to biomechanics. The huge majority of cycling power is produced by muscles that span the hip and knee. Where do you suppose the knee and hip joints transition from flexing to extending? Could it be somewhere in the range of 11-1?
YES, right again! In a group of cyclists we tested pedaling at 250w and 90rpm the transition for the knee occurred at 340 degrees and for the hip at 6 degrees.
Putting these two concepts together, there must necessarily be a point in the cycle with zero power when the knee and hip transition from flexing to extending.
So, if the joint angular velocities must go though a zero point, how do you propose to produce power there? Of course its only zero for an instant but on either side of that transition its low. So power is some joint moment x a low joint angular velocity. Would that give us high power or low power?
Right again, low power. Well done class!!


Completely different biomechanics were used by Anquetil for TT's. Yes there is zero power for an instant, that's why I always refer to the dead spot sector (60deg) and not the dead spot. Unlike the natural mashing style, in the semi circular style a triple transition takes place at 11 o'c, hip and knee from flexing to extension and simultaneous changeover of maximal force application from one leg to the other as the momentum of the downward leg at 5 is transferred to the power application leg at 11. On one 30 deg. side of that zero power instant at 11 is the power that is being applied by the down leg between 4 and 5 o'c, on the other side is hip power, giving the same power as that which can be applied between 2 and 3 o'c. This maximal torque at 12 continues from 12 to 3 o'c. Obviously in both techniques the hip is being used in very different ways. Natural pedalling is done unconsciously, total concentration is required for this triple transition at 11 o'c.


And your evidence for this is???


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hh2DcgpnkU

The Perfect Technique
backdoor
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Re: Basic physics / biomechanics

04 Feb 2016 16:48

PhitBoy wrote:All I can say is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1n5CQe1krI

backdoor wrote:Unlike the natural mashing style, in the semi circular style a triple transition takes place at 11 o'c, hip and knee from flexing to extension and simultaneous changeover of maximal force application from one leg to the other as the momentum of the downward leg at 5 is transferred to the power application leg at 11. On one 30 deg. side of that zero power instant at 11 is the power that is being applied by the down leg between 4 and 5 o'c, on the other side is hip power, giving the same power as that which can be applied between 2 and 3 o'c. This maximal torque at 12 continues from 12 to 3 o'c. Obviously in both techniques the hip is being used in very different ways. Natural pedalling is done unconsciously, total concentration is required for this triple transition at 11 o'c.


There is only so much power a rider's downstroke muscles are capable of producing and changing the shape of the chain ring or crank is not going to alter that fact. The dead spot sector can only be eliminated by a complete change of technique. " A good workman never blames his tools"
http://www.bikesportmichigan.com/editorials/0000091.shtml
backdoor
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Re: Basic physics / biomechanics

04 Feb 2016 16:55

backdoor wrote:The Perfect Technique


Well, there you have it, proof positive.
Just out of curiosity Noel, what is your educational and professional background?
PhitBoy
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Re: Basic physics / biomechanics

04 Feb 2016 18:12

PhitBoy wrote:
backdoor wrote:The Perfect Technique


Well, there you have it, proof positive.
Just out of curiosity Noel, what is your educational and professional background?


Nothing more than basic secondary education, no professional background.
backdoor
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Re: Basic physics / biomechanics

04 Feb 2016 19:31



I asked for evidence Noel. A video is evidence of nothing.
Hamish Ferguson
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Re: Basic physics / biomechanics

04 Feb 2016 21:42

CoachFergie wrote:


I asked for evidence Noel. A video is evidence of nothing.


Well it's evidence that Jacque had really great hair and was somewhat of a toe pointer;)
In regards to how he was applying power .............well not so much.

Hugh
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Re: Basic physics / biomechanics

04 Feb 2016 22:37

sciguy wrote:
CoachFergie wrote:


I asked for evidence Noel. A video is evidence of nothing.


Well it's evidence that Jacque had really great hair and was somewhat of a toe pointer;)
In regards to how he was applying power .............well not so much.

Hugh


Yes much better hair than I ever had and as regards the power application it reveals absolutely nothing, that's what made it so valuable throughout all his TT years. I discovered this powerful technique about three years before a video of his pedalling first appeared on PC's in 2001 and as soon as I saw it I knew I had the answer to his mysterious extra power in time trials. As I asked you before, can you tell from this video where he is starting his power stroke.
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