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The pedaling technique thread

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Re: Basic physics / biomechanics

04 Feb 2016 22:42

backdoor wrote:
sciguy wrote:
CoachFergie wrote:


I asked for evidence Noel. A video is evidence of nothing.


Well it's evidence that Jacque had really great hair and was somewhat of a toe pointer;)
In regards to how he was applying power .............well not so much.

Hugh


Yes much better hair than I ever had and as regards the power application it reveals absolutely nothing, that's what made it so valuable throughout all his TT years. I discovered this powerful technique about three years before a video of his pedalling first appeared on PC's in 2001 and as soon as I saw it I knew I had the answer to his mysterious extra power in time trials. As I asked you before, can you tell from this video where he is starting his power stroke.


You can't tell anything about his pedalling or power output. The video is a nice historical look at a cyclist, not evidence of a perfect pedalling technique.
JamesCun
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05 Feb 2016 01:41

Paper after paper in the last 40 years showing how easy it is to measure and test the effects of different pedalling techniques and various pieces of equipment and all Noel can do is post links to old videos.
Hamish Ferguson
coachfergblog.blogspot.co.nz
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Re: Re:

05 Feb 2016 10:54

CoachFergie wrote:
backdoor wrote:
CoachFergie wrote:That was the summary statement to the Gimmickcranks debate. The solution to a problem that never existed.


If Berend, yourself and all other experts are incapable of realizing that the (11-1) idling dead spot sector is a problem in pedalling, a serious problem that can be completely eliminated, how can they know what other problems do or do not exist in pedalling.


If the problem existed it could be easily measured and if a better method was available this could be easily measured.

Present data rather than your opinion!


So I am correct, until someone measures it and presents data, you and Berend will continue to believe that the dead spot sector does not reduce power output from each pedal stroke.
backdoor
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Re: Re:

05 Feb 2016 13:59

backdoor wrote:
CoachFergie wrote:
backdoor wrote:
CoachFergie wrote:That was the summary statement to the Gimmickcranks debate. The solution to a problem that never existed.


If Berend, yourself and all other experts are incapable of realizing that the (11-1) idling dead spot sector is a problem in pedalling, a serious problem that can be completely eliminated, how can they know what other problems do or do not exist in pedalling.


If the problem existed it could be easily measured and if a better method was available this could be easily measured.

Present data rather than your opinion!


So I am correct, until someone measures it and presents data, you and Berend will continue to believe that the dead spot sector does not reduce power output from each pedal stroke.


Now you're putting words in my mouth.

I believe that modifying your pedal stroke to be more circular does not increase the power you can maintain for a specified time interval. It may actually reduce your sustained power.

I believe that this is true for any interval longer than 5 seconds.

I do believe that the dead spot temporarily reduces your power output to zero (or near zero), and that if you measure sub-second intervals your power is reduced. No one cares about sub-second intervals.

I hope I've been specific enough.
berend
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Re: Re:

05 Feb 2016 15:52

berend wrote:
backdoor wrote:
CoachFergie wrote:
backdoor wrote:
CoachFergie wrote:That was the summary statement to the Gimmickcranks debate. The solution to a problem that never existed.


If Berend, yourself and all other experts are incapable of realizing that the (11-1) idling dead spot sector is a problem in pedalling, a serious problem that can be completely eliminated, how can they know what other problems do or do not exist in pedalling.


If the problem existed it could be easily measured and if a better method was available this could be easily measured.

Present data rather than your opinion!




I do believe that the dead spot temporarily reduces your power output to zero (or near zero), and that if you measure sub-second intervals your power is reduced. No one cares about sub-second intervals.

I hope I've been specific enough.


And what about the almost idling of the legs as the cranks move from 11-1 and 5-7
backdoor
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Re: Basic physics / biomechanics

05 Feb 2016 18:08

backdoor wrote:Nothing more than basic secondary education, no professional background.


Thanks for being so honest. I suspect that your educational background is really at the heart of the debate/disconnect throughout this topic.
Several of those of us who are arguing with you have advanced degrees. While that may sound pretentious I'm not saying we have superior knowledge just because of letters behind our name. However, with advanced training comes an understanding of what we do know and what we don't know. Your posts suggest that you don't understand the difference between what you "know" and what you believe. We are presenting research based facts and you responding with your beliefs. Kinda like an atheist arguing with a religious person; the debate goes nowhere.
I get it now.
PhitBoy
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Re: Basic physics / biomechanics

05 Feb 2016 21:11

PhitBoy wrote:[quote="[url=http://forum.cyclingnews.com/viewtopic.php?p=1861435#p1861435]


Several of those of us who are arguing with you have advanced degrees. While that may sound pretentious I'm not saying we have superior knowledge just because of letters behind our name. However, with advanced training comes an understanding of what we do know and what we don't know.


And that's as far as it goes, because pedalling technique cannot be improved if you don't know what your objectives are. This is not helped by the fact that physiologists do not know what their muscles are capable of doing.
Last edited by backdoor on 20 Apr 2019 22:26, edited 2 times in total.
backdoor
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Re: Basic physics / biomechanics

05 Feb 2016 21:58

backdoor wrote:
PhitBoy wrote:[quote="[url=http://forum.cyclingnews.com/viewtopic.php?p=1861435#p1861435]



Several of those of us who are arguing with you have advanced degrees. While that may sound pretentious I'm not saying we have superior knowledge just because of letters behind our name. However, with advanced training comes an understanding of what we do know and what we don't know.


And that's as far as it goes, because pedalling technique cannot be improved if you don't know what your objectives are. This is not helped by the fact that physiologists do not know what the bodies muscles are capable of doing.
[/quote]

If you haven't studied physiology, or biomechanics, at an advanced level, and performed research where you have to measure these things on a daily basis, worked with other sport scientists, whose aims are to improve cycling, not to just document what is happening currently then I suspect it is you who has little understanding of the concept Noel.
Last edited by CoachFergie on 05 Feb 2016 23:55, edited 1 time in total.
Hamish Ferguson
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Re: Basic physics / biomechanics

05 Feb 2016 23:01

backdoor wrote:physiologists do not know what the bodies muscles are capable of doing.


How would you know what physiologists do or don't know?
PhitBoy
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Re: Basic physics / biomechanics

05 Feb 2016 23:18

PhitBoy wrote:
backdoor wrote:physiologists do not know what the bodies muscles are capable of doing.


How would you know what physiologists do or don't know?


Physiologist A. Coggan claimed some years back on a cycling forum while this same topic was being discussed that it was not possible for human muscles to apply maximal torque to the crank at TDC while the rider was in the seated racing drops position. He is wrong, it is possible.
backdoor
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Re: Basic physics / biomechanics

05 Feb 2016 23:50

backdoor wrote:...
Physiologist A. Coggan claimed some years back on a cycling forum while this same topic was being discussed that it was not possible for human muscles to apply maximal torque to the crank at TDC while the rider was in the seated racing drops position. He is wrong, it is possible.

----------------------------------
Are you claiming that an equal (or greater) amount of power can be produced in the TDC sector (11-1 o'clock), as can be produced in the 1-3 or 2-4 sector?
And, do you think that same amount of power can be produced in other sectors?

Or are you saying that there's a technique that 'will produce' the amount of power at TDC that theoretically 'can be' produced in that sector? i.e. 'maximal' for that sector, but perhaps not equal/more than produced in other sectors.

When you use the term 'maximal torque' it seems to imply an amount of torque that is equal to the maximum torque that is produced an ANY sector of crank rotation.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA
JayKosta
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Re: Basic physics / biomechanics

06 Feb 2016 00:23

backdoor wrote:it is possible.


I do, I do, I do believe in fairies!
PhitBoy
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Re: Basic physics / biomechanics

06 Feb 2016 00:47

JayKosta wrote:
backdoor wrote:...
Physiologist A. Coggan claimed some years back on a cycling forum while this same topic was being discussed that it was not possible for human muscles to apply maximal torque to the crank at TDC while the rider was in the seated racing drops position. He is wrong, it is possible.

----------------------------------
Are you claiming that an equal (or greater) amount of power can be produced in the TDC sector (11-1 o'clock), as can be produced in the 1-3 or 2-4 sector?
And, do you think that same amount of power can be produced in other sectors?

Or are you saying that there's a technique that 'will produce' the amount of power at TDC that theoretically 'can be' produced in that sector? i.e. 'maximal' for that sector, but perhaps not equal/more than produced in other sectors.

When you use the term 'maximal torque' it seems to imply an amount of torque that is equal to the maximum torque that is produced an ANY sector of crank rotation.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA

Greater torque can be applied between 11-1 than what can be applied by natural pedalling between 2-4.
By maximal torque I mean the torque that can be applied at 3 o'c (maximal force with full tangential effect) This special technique applies the same torque between 11-12 as that applied by natural pedalling between 2-3, continuous maximal torque is applied from 12-3. Normal torque is applied from 3 - 5.
backdoor
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Re: Basic physics / biomechanics

06 Feb 2016 00:58

PhitBoy wrote:
backdoor wrote:Nothing more than basic secondary education, no professional background.


Thanks for being so honest. I suspect that your educational background is really at the heart of the debate/disconnect throughout this topic.
Several of those of us who are arguing with you have advanced degrees. While that may sound pretentious I'm not saying we have superior knowledge just because of letters behind our name. However, with advanced training comes an understanding of what we do know and what we don't know.


What is it ye don't know ?
backdoor
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Re: Basic physics / biomechanics

06 Feb 2016 04:25

backdoor wrote:
JayKosta wrote:
backdoor wrote:...
Physiologist A. Coggan claimed some years back on a cycling forum while this same topic was being discussed that it was not possible for human muscles to apply maximal torque to the crank at TDC while the rider was in the seated racing drops position. He is wrong, it is possible.

----------------------------------
Are you claiming that an equal (or greater) amount of power can be produced in the TDC sector (11-1 o'clock), as can be produced in the 1-3 or 2-4 sector?
And, do you think that same amount of power can be produced in other sectors?

Or are you saying that there's a technique that 'will produce' the amount of power at TDC that theoretically 'can be' produced in that sector? i.e. 'maximal' for that sector, but perhaps not equal/more than produced in other sectors.

When you use the term 'maximal torque' it seems to imply an amount of torque that is equal to the maximum torque that is produced an ANY sector of crank rotation.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA

Greater torque can be applied between 11-1 than what can be applied by natural pedalling between 2-4.
By maximal torque I mean the torque that can be applied at 3 o'c (maximal force with full tangential effect) This special technique applies the same torque between 11-12 as that applied by natural pedalling between 2-3, continuous maximal torque is applied from 12-3. Normal torque is applied from 3 - 5.


What a vivid imagination you have. If you are so sure of this why have you never had your theories tested? We have had the means and ways for the last 40 years now and much of what you claim has been easily testable for the last 100 years.
Hamish Ferguson
coachfergblog.blogspot.co.nz
User avatar CoachFergie
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Re: Re:

06 Feb 2016 07:02

backdoor wrote:
berend wrote:
backdoor wrote:
If Berend, yourself and all other experts are incapable of realizing that the (11-1) idling dead spot sector is a problem in pedalling, a serious problem that can be completely eliminated, how can they know what other problems do or do not exist in pedalling.


I do believe that the dead spot temporarily reduces your power output to zero (or near zero), and that if you measure sub-second intervals your power is reduced. No one cares about sub-second intervals.

I hope I've been specific enough.


And what about the almost idling of the legs as the cranks move from 11-1 and 5-7


I do not care, it's sub-second (sub one crank rotation) and sub-full-muscle-contraction. You need to prove that this (caring about pedal stroke supposed advantage) has an improvement that extends to multiple crank rotations, ie. that the average sustained power goes up.

No one cares if you change 11-1 at the expense of 12-12.

Please don't edit out the rest of my response. Now you make it seem like the important bit is that I believe there's a spot where your power drops to zero. That's not the important bit.
berend
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Re: Basic physics / biomechanics

06 Feb 2016 07:13

backdoor wrote:
JayKosta wrote:
backdoor wrote:...
Physiologist A. Coggan claimed some years back on a cycling forum while this same topic was being discussed that it was not possible for human muscles to apply maximal torque to the crank at TDC while the rider was in the seated racing drops position. He is wrong, it is possible.

----------------------------------
Are you claiming that an equal (or greater) amount of power can be produced in the TDC sector (11-1 o'clock), as can be produced in the 1-3 or 2-4 sector?
And, do you think that same amount of power can be produced in other sectors?

Or are you saying that there's a technique that 'will produce' the amount of power at TDC that theoretically 'can be' produced in that sector? i.e. 'maximal' for that sector, but perhaps not equal/more than produced in other sectors.

When you use the term 'maximal torque' it seems to imply an amount of torque that is equal to the maximum torque that is produced an ANY sector of crank rotation.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA

Greater torque can be applied between 11-1 than what can be applied by natural pedalling between 2-4.
By maximal torque I mean the torque that can be applied at 3 o'c (maximal force with full tangential effect) This special technique applies the same torque between 11-12 as that applied by natural pedalling between 2-3, continuous maximal torque is applied from 12-3. Normal torque is applied from 3 - 5.


Maximum applicable torque to the crankset happens when both feet push simultaneously. This results in zero torque on the chain, but the crank is under a lot of stress.

Maximum torque on the chain happens when you hold the rear brake. This results in lots of torque on the chain, but zero speed (and hence zero power)

Maximum possible torque on the wheel happens when the biggest muscles are involved. That's why leg press and squats in the gym happen with lots of weight (multiple times bodyweight) and certainly with multiple times the weight you can push your foot forwards with.

None of this tells us anything about endurance (aerobic or even anaerobic) benefits.
berend
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Re: Basic physics / biomechanics

23 Feb 2016 21:35

CoachFergie wrote:
backdoor wrote:
JayKosta wrote:
backdoor wrote:...

----------------------------------
Are you claiming that an equal (or greater) amount of power can be produced in the TDC sector (11-1 o'clock), as can be produced in the 1-3 or 2-4 sector?
And, do you think that same amount of power can be produced in other sectors?

Or are you saying that there's a technique that 'will produce' the amount of power at TDC that theoretically 'can be' produced in that sector? i.e. 'maximal' for that sector, but perhaps not equal/more than produced in other sectors.

When you use the term 'maximal torque' it seems to imply an amount of torque that is equal to the maximum torque that is produced an ANY sector of crank rotation.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA

Greater torque can be applied between 11-1 than what can be applied by natural pedalling between 2-4.
By maximal torque I mean the torque that can be applied at 3 o'c (maximal force with full tangential effect) This special technique applies the same torque between 11-12 as that applied by natural pedalling between 2-3, continuous maximal torque is applied from 12-3. Normal torque is applied from 3 - 5.


What a vivid imagination you have. If you are so sure of this why have you never had your theories tested? We have had the means and ways for the last 40 years now and much of what you claim has been easily testable for the last 100 years.


http://cyclingtips.com/2013/09/climbing-and-time-trialling-how-power-outputs-are-affected/

Another mashing disadvantage Anquetil eliminated with his TT technique.
backdoor
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Re: Basic physics / biomechanics

24 Feb 2016 05:00

backdoor wrote:
CoachFergie wrote:
backdoor wrote:
JayKosta wrote:
backdoor wrote:...

----------------------------------
Are you claiming that an equal (or greater) amount of power can be produced in the TDC sector (11-1 o'clock), as can be produced in the 1-3 or 2-4 sector?
And, do you think that same amount of power can be produced in other sectors?

Or are you saying that there's a technique that 'will produce' the amount of power at TDC that theoretically 'can be' produced in that sector? i.e. 'maximal' for that sector, but perhaps not equal/more than produced in other sectors.

When you use the term 'maximal torque' it seems to imply an amount of torque that is equal to the maximum torque that is produced an ANY sector of crank rotation.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA

Greater torque can be applied between 11-1 than what can be applied by natural pedalling between 2-4.
By maximal torque I mean the torque that can be applied at 3 o'c (maximal force with full tangential effect) This special technique applies the same torque between 11-12 as that applied by natural pedalling between 2-3, continuous maximal torque is applied from 12-3. Normal torque is applied from 3 - 5.


What a vivid imagination you have. If you are so sure of this why have you never had your theories tested? We have had the means and ways for the last 40 years now and much of what you claim has been easily testable for the last 100 years.


http://cyclingtips.com/2013/09/climbing-and-time-trialling-how-power-outputs-are-affected/

Another mashing disadvantage Anquetil eliminated with his TT technique.


You're:
(a) assuming this is related to a disadvantage (vs. say, specificity)
(b) assuming Anquetil eliminated it.
(c) assuming Anquetil eliminated it using a technique.
(d) assuming Anquetil eliminated it using a technique you attribute to him.

Start with (a).
berend
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24 Feb 2016 22:40

And assumption is the mother of all fudge ups!
Hamish Ferguson
coachfergblog.blogspot.co.nz
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