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Dura-Ace built in power meters

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Dura-Ace built in power meters

04 Jul 2016 08:57

Seems like this deserves its own thread. I have no interest in owning a power meter but I am interested in what's available. It seems that the largest groupset manufacturer in the world (?) incorporating a power-meter into their cranks is a bit of a game-changer and surely has the likes of SRM, Garmin etc. very worried. That much buying power is surely going to get them in at a very competitive price, compatible with basically every bike someone who wants a power meter could ride, left/right measurement. There's also the Shimano trickle down which makes me think that we'll be seeing this in Ultegra next year (along with possible 105Di2 but that's another thread).

What do people think? Will Shimano corner the market with this move or will it just be another option? I know Sram has Quarq but I don't think they've ever been bundled in with the groupset have they?
Vincenzo Nibali:
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Reduce your carbon footprint, ride steel.
User avatar King Boonen
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04 Jul 2016 09:06

yes the new dura ace looks awesome,we have our bikeshow in australia in 7 days so im looking forward to getting a glimpse'and yeah I have also heard rumors of Di2105 should be the cards fairly soon im hoping.
blaxland
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Re: Dura-Ace built in power meters

12 Jul 2016 19:25

King Boonen wrote:
What do people think? Will Shimano corner the market with this move or will it just be another option? I know Sram has Quarq but I don't think they've ever been bundled in with the groupset have they?


I think the more companies in the market the better. Prices keep coming down and they've gone from being crazy expensive to just another accessory.

I've had a Stages for two years and I really like having one. Obviously great for structured training, but it's also helpful to me when I'm blown on a ride and use it set a pace I know I can maintain.
richwagmn
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12 Jul 2016 19:30

I think Shimano already have cornered the market, haven't they?

I'm not sure why they are getting into the power meter market other than just because they can. It will still be a tiny niche market. Maybe it is not so much about the power meter itself, but about positioning itself at the forefront of bike electronics. After all, SRAM have gained a little kudos with their wireless system.

It will be good, because Dura Ace always is.
User avatar kwikki
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Re:

13 Jul 2016 13:34

kwikki wrote:I think Shimano already have cornered the market, haven't they?

I'm not sure why they are getting into the power meter market other than just because they can. It will still be a tiny niche market. Maybe it is not so much about the power meter itself, but about positioning itself at the forefront of bike electronics. After all, SRAM have gained a little kudos with their wireless system.

It will be good, because Dura Ace always is.


Not that I'm aware of? The don't have a power meter yet, that's the market I mean.

It's a growing market, I wouldn't call it niche anymore. There are local mid-level TT riders, Cat 3/4 riders, local tri-folks and even some guys who just ride sportives with power meters in the clubs I'm in as well as all the good racers and these aren't rich guys. Seems like everyone buys into them, except me!

One of the big selling points for it will be, if true, the dual sided measurements. Especially for racers. The fact it's already in a pro-level crank will be a big plus too.

Good point about the electronics thing, maybe they're going to start looking at integrating other metrics from other sensors too.
Vincenzo Nibali:
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Reduce your carbon footprint, ride steel.
User avatar King Boonen
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13 Jul 2016 13:46

I wondered about the integration thing too. They did have a stab at the bike computer thing with the rather pointless flight deck system, maybe they'll go all out with their own thing.

I, too, have not succumbed to a power-metre yet, but I have just started doing some sort of structured training after not doing anything much for a while, and have found myself in the elite group of a local club I've just joined. There are 3 other riders who can get the better of me, and I'm minded to try and do something about it (in that very tragic middle-aged man way) :rolleyes: :lol:
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16 Jul 2016 03:13

I have found a power meter as an invaluable tool for training, more than a heart rate monitor ever was. The power meter gives a real time indication of training load and the level of effort during intervals where a heart rate monitor has a considerable delay and is a better indicator of the load after the interval is complete, particularly in intervals less than 3 mins duration. The inspiration for the power meter for me was when I changed work and went to a station (I am a paramedic) that has on call after hours. This meant that on my 8 days on/6 days off roster I am confined to an indoor trainer for 8 days out of 14. The power meter has given me an accurate way to monitor the indoor trainer rides and the training load, the effect in my performance as a result on the road is clear. At the moment I have the Garmin Vector single sided system but I will be considering other options when I build my next bike. I know that after my experience so far with power monitoring I will always have a power monitor on all my bikes int he future.

I think it is a good thing that Shimano are releasing their own power meter that is integrated into their group sets although I would not be surprised if it does not filter down to 105 level. I hope that they release it in the mechanical group set as well because not every one sees the value in paying the price premium of electronic group sets over mechanical. I am predicting that in the next 5 years the cost of electronic group sets will come down enough that all manufacturers will change to electronic only in their upper level group sets so this is an issue that I believe is a short term one.

I have little doubt that Shimano will not be the only one to step into the power meter world. Sram are probably well poised for the integration of a power meter with their wireless set up. Campagnolo have already demonstrated their interest in the world of electronic wizardry with the release of the My Campagnolo app and the way it integrates with EPS, not a large stretch of the imagination that a power meter may follow.

As for the head units I think no manufacturer is going to have to reinvent the wheel and release their own head unit. That would be a lot of development in not only the head unit itself but also how it integrates with other apps and programs such as Strava and Training Peaks etc. I believe that by making their system both bluetooth and ANT+ compatible they will provide their customers a wide choice of head units that will function with the power meter. I am not so sure if I were to have the Campagnolo power meter (if they release one of course) I would want to be confined to a Campagnolo head unit, same for Shimano. Having said that head units from Shimano, Campagnolo and Sram that integrate into their own electronic group sets with power meters may make an interesting ensemble. Imagine a groupset that not only has all the normal bike computer and GPS functions but also has full power monitoring, L/R power balance, gear indication, maintenance and servicing information and system battery monitoring. I can see the value in that.
Lynton
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16 Jul 2016 07:19

Just adds one more to the long list of existing power meter options. The question is more what will set their meter apart from what's currently available. Price? Performance? Features?
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Re:

19 Jul 2016 08:36

Lynton wrote:I have found a power meter as an invaluable tool for training, more than a heart rate monitor ever was. The power meter gives a real time indication of training load and the level of effort during intervals where a heart rate monitor has a considerable delay and is a better indicator of the load after the interval is complete, particularly in intervals less than 3 mins duration. The inspiration for the power meter for me was when I changed work and went to a station (I am a paramedic) that has on call after hours. This meant that on my 8 days on/6 days off roster I am confined to an indoor trainer for 8 days out of 14. The power meter has given me an accurate way to monitor the indoor trainer rides and the training load, the effect in my performance as a result on the road is clear. At the moment I have the Garmin Vector single sided system but I will be considering other options when I build my next bike. I know that after my experience so far with power monitoring I will always have a power monitor on all my bikes int he future.


I don't get this. I can understand that out on the road with changing surfaces, gradients and weather conditions it can be hard to properly judge an effort even on roads you know. But on a turbo I know what resistance level I have set, I know what gear I'm in and I know what my HR should be pushing that combination. Is it possible that your purchase of a power meter happens to coincide with a much more structured training plan (this is very likely)? Do you think you could train as well without the power meter now you are more aware of your level?

I think it is a good thing that Shimano are releasing their own power meter that is integrated into their group sets although I would not be surprised if it does not filter down to 105 level. I hope that they release it in the mechanical group set as well because not every one sees the value in paying the price premium of electronic group sets over mechanical. I am predicting that in the next 5 years the cost of electronic group sets will come down enough that all manufacturers will change to electronic only in their upper level group sets so this is an issue that I believe is a short term one.


Di2 105 is on it's way, I'm sure of it. I'm guessing it won't drop below that. Maybe in 5 years we'll see an integrated power meter at that price point but like you I don't think so. People who buy 105 tend to be buying the whole groupset I would think or are on a budget (like me). With that in mind I can't see them wanting to pay extra for a power meter. I really hope they keep mechanical, I'm not going electric.

I have little doubt that Shimano will not be the only one to step into the power meter world. Sram are probably well poised for the integration of a power meter with their wireless set up. Campagnolo have already demonstrated their interest in the world of electronic wizardry with the release of the My Campagnolo app and the way it integrates with EPS, not a large stretch of the imagination that a power meter may follow.


Sram own Quarq, maybe we'll see that as the next integration. I don't know the My Campagnolo app, guessing it allows you to change what your shifter buttons do without hooking up to a computer?

As for the head units I think no manufacturer is going to have to reinvent the wheel and release their own head unit. That would be a lot of development in not only the head unit itself but also how it integrates with other apps and programs such as Strava and Training Peaks etc. I believe that by making their system both bluetooth and ANT+ compatible they will provide their customers a wide choice of head units that will function with the power meter. I am not so sure if I were to have the Campagnolo power meter (if they release one of course) I would want to be confined to a Campagnolo head unit, same for Shimano. Having said that head units from Shimano, Campagnolo and Sram that integrate into their own electronic group sets with power meters may make an interesting ensemble. Imagine a groupset that not only has all the normal bike computer and GPS functions but also has full power monitoring, L/R power balance, gear indication, maintenance and servicing information and system battery monitoring. I can see the value in that.


Agree with all that. I personally can't see much value in it, but then I fully understand I'm not the market for that kind of kit and can see how many would like it.
Vincenzo Nibali:
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Reduce your carbon footprint, ride steel.
User avatar King Boonen
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Re:

19 Jul 2016 12:52

kwikki wrote:I wondered about the integration thing too. They did have a stab at the bike computer thing with the rather pointless flight deck system, maybe they'll go all out with their own thing.

I, too, have not succumbed to a power-metre yet, but I have just started doing some sort of structured training after not doing anything much for a while, and have found myself in the elite group of a local club I've just joined. There are 3 other riders who can get the better of me, and I'm minded to try and do something about it (in that very tragic middle-aged man way) :rolleyes: :lol:

Just wheelsuck then steal it on the line :D
Vincenzo Nibali:
"I know how to ride a bike"

Reduce your carbon footprint, ride steel.
User avatar King Boonen
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Re:

21 Jul 2016 19:32

Alex Simmons/RST wrote:Just adds one more to the long list of existing power meter options. The question is more what will set their meter apart from what's currently available. Price? Performance? Features?

I think that the simple fact that it's Shimano will set it apart for many. The name, availability, reliability and value will be expected to go along with it.
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21 Jul 2016 19:35

Dura Ace always delivers IME.
User avatar kwikki
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Re: Re:

01 Aug 2016 23:53

King Boonen wrote:
Lynton wrote:I have found a power meter as an invaluable tool for training, more than a heart rate monitor ever was. The power meter gives a real time indication of training load and the level of effort during intervals where a heart rate monitor has a considerable delay and is a better indicator of the load after the interval is complete, particularly in intervals less than 3 mins duration. The inspiration for the power meter for me was when I changed work and went to a station (I am a paramedic) that has on call after hours. This meant that on my 8 days on/6 days off roster I am confined to an indoor trainer for 8 days out of 14. The power meter has given me an accurate way to monitor the indoor trainer rides and the training load, the effect in my performance as a result on the road is clear. At the moment I have the Garmin Vector single sided system but I will be considering other options when I build my next bike. I know that after my experience so far with power monitoring I will always have a power monitor on all my bikes int he future.


I don't get this. I can understand that out on the road with changing surfaces, gradients and weather conditions it can be hard to properly judge an effort even on roads you know. But on a turbo I know what resistance level I have set, I know what gear I'm in and I know what my HR should be pushing that combination. Is it possible that your purchase of a power meter happens to coincide with a much more structured training plan (this is very likely)? Do you think you could train as well without the power meter now you are more aware of your level?



There is no doubt that my improvements have been a result of more structured training, but the power meter has contributed to that increase in structure and that is my point. Sure heart rate is a good indicator but it has limitations as many things can influence your heart rate outside of normal riding dynamics. Simple things like hydration levels, state of health, amount of sleep and fatigue will have an impact on your heart rate on any given day. Power is more of a consistent indicator of the level of effort that you are doing, heart rate is an indicator of your body's response to that effort.

The issue I have with the indoor trainer is that it is a fluid trainer with a roller that contacts the tyre so it has some variables that are difficult to keep absolutely constant. For example having the roller with just a small amount less pressure against the tyre can result in average speeds 5km/h faster with no increase in effort, indicating less resistance. With a power meter this issue is irrelevant as less resistance = less power so if I am using power as my indicator then the speed will rise with the decreased resistance but the power will be the same. I have found that having the power meter to guide my intervals it is easier to keep the training honest and improve the quality of training. Also the power meter is a lot more useful when conducting short intervals as it gives you a more real time indicator of the effort you are exerting, heart rate has a lot more delay and indicates the effort you put in 1 minute ago which is not helpful on short intervals.

I trained for Ironman triathlon using heart rate a few years ago with a good result and did a sub 10hr Ironman but I wish I had a power meter back then as it is a useful tool.
Lynton
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02 Aug 2016 08:29

I'm getting tempted...
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Re: Re:

11 Aug 2016 03:08

King Boonen wrote:
Lynton wrote:I think it is a good thing that Shimano are releasing their own power meter that is integrated into their group sets although I would not be surprised if it does not filter down to 105 level. I hope that they release it in the mechanical group set as well because not every one sees the value in paying the price premium of electronic group sets over mechanical. I am predicting that in the next 5 years the cost of electronic group sets will come down enough that all manufacturers will change to electronic only in their upper level group sets so this is an issue that I believe is a short term one.


Di2 105 is on it's way, I'm sure of it. I'm guessing it won't drop below that. Maybe in 5 years we'll see an integrated power meter at that price point but like you I don't think so. People who buy 105 tend to be buying the whole groupset I would think or are on a budget (like me). With that in mind I can't see them wanting to pay extra for a power meter. I really hope they keep mechanical, I'm not going electric.

Stages does a 105 crank/meter, so I'm sure Shimano will go down to that level
User avatar Archibald
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13 Aug 2016 22:45

From what I have seen on the previews of the Dura Ace 9100 group the power meter is available in both the electronic and mechanical versions and no head unit is being released but the power meter is both blue tooth and ANT+ compatible so any head unit can be used.
Lynton
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