Log in:  

Register

LeMond III

The Clinic is the only place on Cyclingnews where you can discuss doping-related issues. Ask questions, discuss positives or improvements to procedures.

Moderators: Irondan, Eshnar, Red Rick, Valv.Piti, Pricey_sky, Tonton, King Boonen

Re: Re:

23 Nov 2016 16:51

blutto wrote:
ScienceIsCool wrote:Well, yeah. That's what it used to mean to be a top GC rider. You were really good at each aspect (climbing, TT, sprint, etc) but weren't as dominant as the specialists. The guys whose bodies were tuned to their specialty like when being a climber meant that you were small and thin. TT'ers like Indurain were big and muscular. Then EPO came along and all of a sudden guys could do it all.

GTs used to be way more fun... And don't get me started about race radios!

John Swanson


....but but but....look at Hinault's time trialing when he was in his prime, or Fignon in that magic year....they were dominant....I believe LeMond only ever beat Hinault once, and that when Hinault had a broken nose....and the much maligned Indurain was faster than LeMond in a mountain TT in a pre-EPO Tour stage ( and this after busting his balls day in day out as a domestique )....

....and yeah, race radios, a serious yuk....how to suck the life out of races in one foul swoop....

Cheers


Yes, Hinault was a better TT'er than Lemond and Fignon generally a better climber. Sean Kelly was a better sprinter. Lemond was really good at all those things.

What you rarely (if ever) saw back then was one rider dominating both climbing and TT'ing, as is so common now. Merckx and Hinault being somewhat the exception, though many climbers often beat them.
User avatar red_flanders
Veteran
 
Posts: 5,705
Joined: 03 Apr 2009 06:45

Re: Re:

23 Nov 2016 17:15

red_flanders wrote:
blutto wrote:
ScienceIsCool wrote:Well, yeah. That's what it used to mean to be a top GC rider. You were really good at each aspect (climbing, TT, sprint, etc) but weren't as dominant as the specialists. The guys whose bodies were tuned to their specialty like when being a climber meant that you were small and thin. TT'ers like Indurain were big and muscular. Then EPO came along and all of a sudden guys could do it all.

GTs used to be way more fun... And don't get me started about race radios!

John Swanson


....but but but....look at Hinault's time trialing when he was in his prime, or Fignon in that magic year....they were dominant....I believe LeMond only ever beat Hinault once, and that when Hinault had a broken nose....and the much maligned Indurain was faster than LeMond in a mountain TT in a pre-EPO Tour stage ( and this after busting his balls day in day out as a domestique )....

....and yeah, race radios, a serious yuk....how to suck the life out of races in one foul swoop....

Cheers


Yes, Hinault was a better TT'er than Lemond and Fignon generally a better climber. Sean Kelly was a better sprinter. Lemond was really good at all those things.

What you rarely (if ever) saw back then was one rider dominating both climbing and TT'ing, as is so common now. Merckx and Hinault being somewhat the exception, though many climbers often beat them.


Stephen Roche was also both a good Time Trialist and climber.
Zypherov
Junior Member
 
Posts: 145
Joined: 06 May 2016 10:38

Re: LeMond III

24 Nov 2016 22:24

here we go again....

epo arrives and 'tranforms' lemond into a worse rider than he was before epo

wait...there's another explanation....

lemond was also a pioneer of blood doping....

but...what about before Eddie B you ask....never mind...we have an explanation for the junior worlds...

ah...the family......

I await stories of Lemond drinking blood in nursery school
gillan1969
Member
 
Posts: 1,069
Joined: 12 Aug 2009 12:25

25 Nov 2016 09:18

Turbo-dijen

Francesco Moser was de trendsetter met explosiviteitstrainingen. Hij sprintte onder toezicht van een inspanningsfysioloog zo snel mogelijk met de zwaarste versnelling tegen een berg op tot hij er bij neer viel. Bernard Hinault kweekte op die manier 'turbo-dijen' en was mede daardoor in de bergen de beste klimmers nog de baas. Greg LeMond nam de methode over en verbaasde alle kenners door op de zwaarste verzetten bergop te rijden. ... Rooks bedient zich ook al jaren van deze training. ' Macht kweken.'

Turbo thighs.

Moser was the trendsetter with explosivity trainings. He sprinted up the mountain as fast as he could in the heaviest possible gear under the supervision of an exercise physiologist. The same way Bernard Hinault developed 'turbo thighs' en partially thanks to that he managed to beat the best climbers uphill. Greg Lemond took over this method and surprised all specialists by riding up the mountain in the heaviest gears. Rooks also uses this methods for several years now. 'Developing power'.

https://www.nrc.nl/nieuws/1990/04/21/steven-rooks-de-onverstoorbare-ik-zag-vroeger-te-veel-6928283-a174432
sounds legit. :)
sniper
Veteran
 
Posts: 13,578
Joined: 15 Oct 2010 23:36

25 Nov 2016 10:58

Was reading up on 'mystery man' Otto Jacome.
He was a Mexican construction worker who moved to San Jose to make a living.
Got into cycling by coaching his son. He was then asked to coach the local San Jose cycling team, before being asked to coach the Lemonds (father and son).
The idea that Jacome worked exclusively for Lemond is not correct.
In 1984 Jacome was in LA as cycling coach of the Mexican amateurs including guys like Raul Alcala.
From what I understand, until 1987 Jacome and Lemond only trained in the US together. From 1987 onwards Jacome went with Lemond full time. But that didn't keep him from doing other coaching jobs on the side. In 1989 for instance he was coaching the Spanish team Caja Rural Orbea (in 1989 with a different sponsor, Paternina), a team that had been hit hard by a string of positives in 1988.

http://leiden.courant.nu/issue/LD/1991-02-25/edition/0/page/19?query=otto%20jacome&sort=relevance
http://www.proceso.com.mx/153939/hasta-uso-politico-se-le-dio

From 1989 onwards, in addition to coaching Lemond, Jacome was actively involved in the coaching of mexican cyclist Miguel Arroyo. In 1991, Lemond, Arroyo, Johan Lammerts and Otto Jacome went on a winter training trip together in a huge mobile home, driving and riding almost 3000 kilometers from San Jose to Cabo San Luca in Mexico. Lammerts, Lemond and Arroyo all rode for team Z that year.

http://leiden.courant.nu/issue/LLC/1990-07-13/edition/0/page/7?query=otto%20jacome&sort=relevance

That same year (1991) Arroyo finished fourth in the Tour de Suisse, his best result ever on the European tour. It earned him a contract with Lefevere and De Vlaeminck at GB-MG Maglificio. A year later Arroyo moved to Subaru-Montgomery.

As for Johan Lammerts, he apparently was one of Lemond's closer training buddies.
Began his carreer riding for Raas/Post/Raleigh/Panasonic. Got his best results in that period, winning the RvV in 1984 and stage 20 of the TDF in 1985; then rode a.o. for Toshiba, and then alongside Lemond at ADR and Z.
From 2006 onwards he was national coach of the national Dutch cyclocross team.
Since 2016 he is coach of the men's national road team, replacing Leo van Vliet.
sniper
Veteran
 
Posts: 13,578
Joined: 15 Oct 2010 23:36

25 Nov 2016 15:29

As we were talking about transformations, here's an interesting posts from Oldman from several years ago.
Greg was getting dropped at an East Coast tour 6 weeks, thought about quitting before he went home to train. By himself. Before he won the Tour. I've never heard anyone that got that much stronger riding by themselves...ever.
viewtopic.php?p=55493#p55493

It was Tour duPont or something similar. I'm quoting Greg when he referenced getting dropped and nearly quitting the sport. Friends in Napa saw him training in that area with Otto Jacombe.
viewtopic.php?p=55606#p55606
sniper
Veteran
 
Posts: 13,578
Joined: 15 Oct 2010 23:36

25 Nov 2016 20:45

In 89 Lemond also worked with Paul Nijs, a pharmacist who was a member of the Belgium anti doping comittee. They where introduced by a mutual friend, Noel de jonckheere, who was DS at 7-eleven at that time.
http://www.delpher.nl/nl/kranten/view?cql%5B%5D=%28date+_gte_+%2201-01-1980%22%29&cql%5B%5D=%28date+_lte_+%2231-12-2000%22%29&query=lemond+hormonen&coll=ddd&identifier=KBNRC01%3A000030588%3Ampeg21%3Aa0148&resultsidentifier=KBNRC01%3A000030588%3Ampeg21%3Aa0148

In an interview in 84 he is very open about the fact that many pro cyclist knock on his door for doping. According to him deca-durabolin is populair amongst cyclist and its produced by Organon. He is not a fan of amfetamines but if you insist he would advise pervitine (aka amphethamines or crystal meth) because It gives a fantastically good feeling.
http://www.delpher.nl/nl/kranten/view?coll=ddd&query=%28paul+nijs+doping%29&cql%5B%5D=%28date+_gte_+%2201-01-1618%22%29&cql%5B%5D=%28date+_lte_+%2231-12-1995%22%29&identifier=KBNRC01%3A000027899%3Ampeg21%3Aa0120&resultsidentifier=KBNRC01%3A000027899%3Ampeg21%3Aa0120
Tienus
Member
 
Posts: 555
Joined: 30 Jan 2016 18:15

Re:

25 Nov 2016 21:25

Tienus wrote:In 89 Lemond also worked with Paul Nijs, a pharmacist who was a member of the Belgium anti doping comittee. They where introduced by a mutual friend, Noel de jonckheere, who was DS at 7-eleven at that time.
http://www.delpher.nl/nl/kranten/view?cql%5B%5D=%28date+_gte_+%2201-01-1980%22%29&cql%5B%5D=%28date+_lte_+%2231-12-2000%22%29&query=lemond+hormonen&coll=ddd&identifier=KBNRC01%3A000030588%3Ampeg21%3Aa0148&resultsidentifier=KBNRC01%3A000030588%3Ampeg21%3Aa0148

In an interview in 84 he is very open about the fact that many pro cyclist knock on his door for doping. According to him deca-durabolin is populair amongst cyclist and its produced by Organon. He is not a fan of amfetamines but if you insist he would advise pervitine (aka amphethamines or crystal meth) because It gives a fantastically good feeling.
http://www.delpher.nl/nl/kranten/view?coll=ddd&query=%28paul+nijs+doping%29&cql%5B%5D=%28date+_gte_+%2201-01-1618%22%29&cql%5B%5D=%28date+_lte_+%2231-12-1995%22%29&identifier=KBNRC01%3A000027899%3Ampeg21%3Aa0120&resultsidentifier=KBNRC01%3A000027899%3Ampeg21%3Aa0120


The very first thing I translated from the first link was: "Lemond do not want to use drugs. He is stubborn and always just rely only on his own production."

Ugh.

Is it possible to just provide full translations? I'm not convinced that these articles are saying what you're implying they are.

John Swanson
ScienceIsCool
Member
 
Posts: 1,465
Joined: 05 Jul 2009 15:34

25 Nov 2016 22:07

deleted.
Last edited by sniper on 25 Nov 2016 22:18, edited 2 times in total.
sniper
Veteran
 
Posts: 13,578
Joined: 15 Oct 2010 23:36

Re: Re:

25 Nov 2016 22:12

ScienceIsCool wrote:
Tienus wrote:In 89 Lemond also worked with Paul Nijs, a pharmacist who was a member of the Belgium anti doping comittee. They where introduced by a mutual friend, Noel de jonckheere, who was DS at 7-eleven at that time.
http://www.delpher.nl/nl/kranten/view?cql%5B%5D=%28date+_gte_+%2201-01-1980%22%29&cql%5B%5D=%28date+_lte_+%2231-12-2000%22%29&query=lemond+hormonen&coll=ddd&identifier=KBNRC01%3A000030588%3Ampeg21%3Aa0148&resultsidentifier=KBNRC01%3A000030588%3Ampeg21%3Aa0148

In an interview in 84 he is very open about the fact that many pro cyclist knock on his door for doping. According to him deca-durabolin is populair amongst cyclist and its produced by Organon. He is not a fan of amfetamines but if you insist he would advise pervitine (aka amphethamines or crystal meth) because It gives a fantastically good feeling.
http://www.delpher.nl/nl/kranten/view?coll=ddd&query=%28paul+nijs+doping%29&cql%5B%5D=%28date+_gte_+%2201-01-1618%22%29&cql%5B%5D=%28date+_lte_+%2231-12-1995%22%29&identifier=KBNRC01%3A000027899%3Ampeg21%3Aa0120&resultsidentifier=KBNRC01%3A000027899%3Ampeg21%3Aa0120


The very first thing I translated from the first link was: "Lemond do not want to use drugs. He is stubborn and always just rely only on his own production."

Ugh.

Is it possible to just provide full translations? I'm not convinced that these articles are saying what you're implying they are.

John Swanson


100% Agreed, I was starting to get tired of all these links that were appearing in Dutch or Flemish with no translations but claims being made from certain excerpts that were selectively quoted. I think it is starting to become a bit too obvious.
pmcg76
Senior Member
 
Posts: 3,479
Joined: 06 Mar 2009 17:56

25 Nov 2016 22:16

Tienus was making no claim.
You just made that up. Again.

If you get tired of people checking up on things and speculating about Lemond, well there are no rules against that, so you might be best advised to just ignore this thread.
sniper
Veteran
 
Posts: 13,578
Joined: 15 Oct 2010 23:36

Re: Re:

25 Nov 2016 22:20

ScienceIsCool wrote:...
The very first thing I translated from the first link was: "Lemond do not want to use drugs. He is stubborn and always just rely only on his own production."

Ugh.

Is it possible to just provide full translations? I'm not convinced that these articles are saying what you're implying they are.

John Swanson


Taking stuff from the horse's mouth really isn't the way forward here John.
You don't do it with Froome and Wiggins, so why do it with Lemond.
Nijs was a member of Belgium Antidoping. He wasn't going to say anything else than that.

It's an interesting find, tbh.
Nijs, antidoping AND providing cyclists with pharmaceuticals.
Classic example of a dope facilitator playing both sides.
Bermon, Conconi, Ekblom, Damsgaard, Schumacher, etc.
We've seen so many of them in recent years. It's interesting to learn that the concept was known already in the 80s.

The stuff Nijs is saying about his treatment of Lemond is comedy gold. A-grade quackery.

If you read the 1984 article, it makes perfectly clear what Nijs was about. Not just a quack, but a well-connected dope facilitator and one who knew how to beat the tests.
Lemond being treated by Nijs is no less dodgy than Froome working with Stephane Bermon.

On a side, Lemond was also rumored to be a client of Freddy "pot belge" Sergeant in the late 80s/early 90s. Which makes sense. Sergeant was ADR's soigneur.
I'm starting to understand why Lemond felt so at ease in Belgium.

Lemond later also worked with Bellocque, another dodgy hormone doctor.
Just saying, Lemond's network of the time makes Froome and Wiggins' combined entourage look pale by comparison.

If you get tired of the Dutch links, why don't you provide some in English or another language of your choice.
Feel free :)
sniper
Veteran
 
Posts: 13,578
Joined: 15 Oct 2010 23:36

Re:

25 Nov 2016 22:31

sniper wrote:Tienus was making no claim.
You just made that up. Again.

If you get tired of people checking up on things and speculating about Lemond, well there are no rules against that, so you might be best advised to just ignore this thread.


The only thing I am tired of is posters selectively quoting and misrepresenting articles for their own purposes which there are rules for. I would like to know what these full artciles say but I shouldn't have to translate them. This is an English language forum so if links in other languages are posted, they should at least be translated in full or the relevant parts translated.

As for LeMond working with this doctor, when exactly did he work with LeMond. As I already posted, LeMond spent very little time in Belgium in 89.
pmcg76
Senior Member
 
Posts: 3,479
Joined: 06 Mar 2009 17:56

25 Nov 2016 22:47

The very first thing I translated from the first link was: "Lemond do not want to use drugs. He is stubborn and always just rely only on his own production."

Ugh.

Is it possible to just provide full translations? I'm not convinced that these articles are saying what you're implying they are.

John Swanson


I tried to use text recognising software but it doesnt work well on these newspapers. Otherwise It would be quick to translate and than correct the errors. If I would do that I probably still get criticism for incorrect translating.

Some translations bits from first link:
In the 89 tour Lemond used a plant extract (Smilax_ornata) from dr Nijs. Because of this extract the body gets more raw materials to produce hormones. It is not a hormone because that would be dangerous and forbidden.
About the abandon of the 92 tour: I saw his face on tv. He was tight and lean which points to clean. Round faces point to doping.

FMK has written a piece in English where Nijs is mentioned. Apparantly he can also make a legal plant extract that works like amfetamines.
http://www.podiumcafe.com/2010/9/24/1707769/freddy-maertens-take-two
Tienus
Member
 
Posts: 555
Joined: 30 Jan 2016 18:15

Re: Re:

25 Nov 2016 22:54

pmcg76 wrote:...
The only thing I am tired of is posters selectively quoting and misrepresenting articles for their own purposes which there are rules for. I would like to know what these full artciles say but I shouldn't have to translate them. This is an English language forum so if links in other languages are posted, they should at least be translated in full or the relevant parts translated.

As for LeMond working with this doctor, when exactly did he work with LeMond. As I already posted, LeMond spent very little time in Belgium in 89.


Tienus didn't misrepresent anything.
You did misrepresent Tienus, however, by suggesting he "claimed" something.
What exactly did Tienus claim? Or were you just misrepresenting him for your own purpose?

Again, compliments to Tienus for this find.
To my knowledge Nijs connection with Lemond over a period of at least three years, let alone him providing Lemond with medicines in that period, had never been pointed out before.

As for translating, get real, you cannot expect Tienus or anybody to translate full articles that can't even be copy-pasted.
sniper
Veteran
 
Posts: 13,578
Joined: 15 Oct 2010 23:36

25 Nov 2016 23:02

proper link to first article
https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:CjG0_kREBMQJ:https://www.nrc.nl/nieuws/1992/07/20/arsenicum-wint-het-van-kruid-7150352-a491708+&cd=1&hl=nl&ct=clnk&gl=nl

google translate without editing apart from title

Arsenic beats herbs

Greg LeMond got yesterday disillusioned from the Tour de France. The American spoke of exhaustion. According to the Belgian chemist Dr. Paul Nijs LeMond still hampered by a shotgun which a remainder after the accident at a hunting party left in his body. Arsenic released creates exhaustion. Nijs LeMond escorted three years ago, the season he won the Tour for the second time, with a composition of a plant extract. He revealed in the magazine "Better."

Can you explain from which the extract is made?

It is made up of raw materials from the plant sarsaparilla. This is an herb that grows especially in North America. The Indians were already using it to increase endurance. One hundred years ago, the properties of the plant were also discovered in Europe.

What effect does the plant on the body?

You can not win a Tour de France with. But in combination with a balanced diet and proper training you can benefit from it. By extract the body gets raw materials making itself will produce more hormones. As a result, the muscle tissue build-up is stimulated in a natural way. It is not a hormone, because it is harmful and prohibited. Sasaparilla is available at any pharmacy and is administered in drops. You should not see it as homeopathy. That is cheating people. The use of herbs I regard as a form of alternative medicine. A portion of the plant has a certain effect on the body. Eighty percent is useless, twenty percent can be used for an extract as this.

How did you come into contact with Greg LeMond?

By Noel de Jonckheere, a mutual friend of ours, now one of the team leaders of the American Motorola team. LeMond would not use drugs. He is stubborn and always just rely only on its own products. I saw his face on television when he had made an end to his suffering. Sleek and skinny. This points to a clean body. Because when you have thick tronies suspected doping. But LeMond is the arsenic thirty bullets probably go back to work. That is pure poison ..
Tienus
Member
 
Posts: 555
Joined: 30 Jan 2016 18:15

25 Nov 2016 23:03

To my knowledge Nijs connection with Lemond over a period of at least three years,


tbh I only read the 89 connection
Tienus
Member
 
Posts: 555
Joined: 30 Jan 2016 18:15

Re:

25 Nov 2016 23:11

Tienus wrote:
To my knowledge Nijs connection with Lemond over a period of at least three years,


tbh I only read the 89 connection

The interview is from 1992, and the first paragraph ("According to Dr. Nijs Greg Lemond is still suffering from a schot hagel (...)") had me thinking he's still working with him in that year.
But you're right, the remainder suggests a connection only in 1989. My bad.
sniper
Veteran
 
Posts: 13,578
Joined: 15 Oct 2010 23:36

Re: Re:

25 Nov 2016 23:16

sniper wrote:
pmcg76 wrote:...
The only thing I am tired of is posters selectively quoting and misrepresenting articles for their own purposes which there are rules for. I would like to know what these full artciles say but I shouldn't have to translate them. This is an English language forum so if links in other languages are posted, they should at least be translated in full or the relevant parts translated.

As for LeMond working with this doctor, when exactly did he work with LeMond. As I already posted, LeMond spent very little time in Belgium in 89.


Tienus didn't misrepresent anything.
You did misrepresent Tienus, however, by suggesting he "claimed" something.
What exactly did Tienus claim? Or were you just misrepresenting him for your own purpose?

Again, compliments to Tienus for this find.
To my knowledge Nijs connection with Lemond over a period of at least three years, let alone him providing Lemond with medicines in that period, had never been pointed out before.

As for translating, get real, you cannot expect Tienus or anybody to translate full articles that can't even be copy-pasted.


Funny I was referring more to you when thinking of people misrepresenting articles. Tienus selectively took out of the piece about riders coming to Nijs for drugs and mentions about LeMond working with the doctor. That implies something whilst if we actually get more translation, we find out exactly what he gave LeMond, plant extract. That is what you call mispresentation by omission. If posters cannot at least translate the relevant parts of articles, they are useless to the majority of posters.
pmcg76
Senior Member
 
Posts: 3,479
Joined: 06 Mar 2009 17:56

25 Nov 2016 23:27

thanks for confirming that you misrepresented Tienus.

and no, we don't find out exactly what he gave Lemond.
we find out exactly what he says he gave Lemond.
;)
sniper
Veteran
 
Posts: 13,578
Joined: 15 Oct 2010 23:36

PreviousNext

Return to The Clinic

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: 70kmph, Google Adsense [Bot], nslckevin and 33 guests

Back to top