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The pedaling technique thread

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Re: Re:

28 Apr 2017 03:08

backdoor wrote:
PhitBoy wrote:My oh my but we are having a very interesting debate! Its a lot like the one we had 92 pages back. And 91 pages back, and...
Kinda reminds me of US politics right now: Rational people make rational arguments but irrational people are immune to facts so they aren't swayed. The irrational arguments make no sense at all so they cannot sway any rational people. But that's no reason not to repeat argument->counterargument over and over ad nauseam.
Let me know when there's a winner.
Cheers,
Jim


Maybe you don't like being reminded that after over 500 pedalling studies by scientists, cycling's two major problems are still in existence today.

http://www.active.com/cycling/articles/how-to-avoid-lower-back-pain-while-cycling

This type of advice from the experts that appears each year in magazines is of no benefit to those who suffer from chronic lower back pain when riding their bikes. I know because I was one of those who had to endure the torture.


More likely an issue created to build demand for physiotherapy and bike fits. Like the 500 studies on pedalling that show you are wrong I would ask you supply data that back pain is such an issue and that your method could solve it.
Hamish Ferguson
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Re: Re:

29 Apr 2017 15:19

CoachFergie wrote:[quote="

More likely an issue created to build demand for physiotherapy and bike fits. Like the 500 studies on pedalling that show you are wrong I would ask you supply data that back pain is such an issue and that your method could solve it.


Physiotherapy cannot remove a lifelong defect from a lower back and the intensity of the pain will be decided by the seriousness of the defect. The perfect bike fit is designed for the natural technique which creates lower back stress (the root cause of lower back pain), not for the perfect technique that can eliminate all lower back stress and replace the dead spot sector with maximal torque. Can you name one of those studies that show I am wrong ?
backdoor
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Re: Re:

29 Apr 2017 15:24

Alex Simmons/RST wrote:
backdoor wrote:more belief-based nonsense
Back pain is not unique to cycling


Competitive aero skating is another sport where lower back stress could have the same effect but I don't see any way that stress could be eliminated.
backdoor
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Re: Re:

29 Apr 2017 23:26

backdoor wrote:
CoachFergie wrote:[quote="

More likely an issue created to build demand for physiotherapy and bike fits. Like the 500 studies on pedalling that show you are wrong I would ask you supply data that back pain is such an issue and that your method could solve it.


Physiotherapy cannot remove a lifelong defect from a lower back and the intensity of the pain will be decided by the seriousness of the defect. The perfect bike fit is designed for the natural technique which creates lower back stress (the root cause of lower back pain), not for the perfect technique that can eliminate all lower back stress and replace the dead spot sector with maximal torque. Can you name one of those studies that show I am wrong ?

How does perfect technique eliminate lower back stress (not sure what you mean by lower back stress)?
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Re: Re:

30 Apr 2017 10:50

backdoor wrote:
CoachFergie wrote:[quote="

More likely an issue created to build demand for physiotherapy and bike fits. Like the 500 studies on pedalling that show you are wrong I would ask you supply data that back pain is such an issue and that your method could solve it.


Physiotherapy cannot remove a lifelong defect from a lower back and the intensity of the pain will be decided by the seriousness of the defect. The perfect bike fit is designed for the natural technique which creates lower back stress (the root cause of lower back pain), not for the perfect technique that can eliminate all lower back stress and replace the dead spot sector with maximal torque. Can you name one of those studies that show I am wrong ?


Your technique, you need to show that it removes back pain.

Right now it sounds like snake oil:
* everyone has problem X
* it's always caused by Y
* and Z fixes it
* therefore Z fixes all problems everywhere
* trust me, you can't prove me wrong
berend
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Re: Re:

02 May 2017 09:55

CoachFergie wrote:
backdoor wrote:
PhitBoy wrote:My oh my but we are having a very interesting debate! Its a lot like the one we had 92 pages back. And 91 pages back, and...
Kinda reminds me of US politics right now: Rational people make rational arguments but irrational people are immune to facts so they aren't swayed. The irrational arguments make no sense at all so they cannot sway any rational people. But that's no reason not to repeat argument->counterargument over and over ad nauseam.
Let me know when there's a winner.
Cheers,
Jim


Maybe you don't like being reminded that after over 500 pedalling studies by scientists, cycling's two major problems are still in existence today.

http://www.active.com/cycling/articles/how-to-avoid-lower-back-pain-while-cycling

This type of advice from the experts that appears each year in magazines is of no benefit to those who suffer from chronic lower back pain when riding their bikes. I know because I was one of those who had to endure the torture.


More likely an issue created to build demand for physiotherapy and bike fits. Like the 500 studies on pedalling that show you are wrong I would ask you supply data that back pain is such an issue and that your method could solve it.


Below is an answer given to a cyclist who asked how much of his weight should be on his bars when pedaling. Would you agree with that answer ?


"Off the bike, stand up, knees slightly bent, one foot slightly ahead like your cranks are at 3 and 9, and bend over forward 90 degrees, arms out like you're on the saddle. Now stay there.
You should feel your weight being carried by your core/abs. That's what it should feel like on the bike, go out in a parking lot and practice. Ride around without gripping around the bar, using only your fingertips. Heavy feet, light hands. Try to carry the weight in a split between the saddle and legs."
backdoor
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02 May 2017 12:40

So you are happy to believe whatever some nameless face says on the internet with no credentials that we know of yet dispute eveything the many scientists and coaches on this thread say, who do it every day. ok
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Re: Re:

02 May 2017 22:40

backdoor wrote:"Off the bike, stand up, knees slightly bent, one foot slightly ahead like your cranks are at 3 and 9, and bend over forward 90 degrees, arms out like you're on the saddle. Now stay there.
You should feel your weight being carried by your core/abs. That's what it should feel like on the bike, go out in a parking lot and practice. Ride around without gripping around the bar, using only your fingertips. Heavy feet, light hands. Try to carry the weight in a split between the saddle and legs."

We've done that study! Only reported as a conference poster and need to write up the full manuscript. Reducing the weight on the hands increases the relative contribution of power from hip extension and reduces the contribution from knee extension. Its not in the abstract but when we told subjects to lean heavily on the bars, the contribution from knee extension went up. In other words, the more weight on your hands, the more you're using your quads.
Image
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03 May 2017 13:14

From the Fig 1 photo, it appears the cyclist achieved the 'instructed position' by sitting more forward on the saddle and has his body 'center of mass' changed from being behind the bottom bracket spindle, to being over the spindle.
Do you recall if the other participants did the same position change?

Jay Kosta
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Re: Re:

03 May 2017 14:52

JamesCun wrote:
backdoor wrote:
CoachFergie wrote:[quote="

More likely an issue created to build demand for physiotherapy and bike fits. Like the 500 studies on pedalling that show you are wrong I would ask you supply data that back pain is such an issue and that your method could solve it.


Physiotherapy cannot remove a lifelong defect from a lower back and the intensity of the pain will be decided by the seriousness of the defect. The perfect bike fit is designed for the natural technique which creates lower back stress (the root cause of lower back pain), not for the perfect technique that can eliminate all lower back stress and replace the dead spot sector with maximal torque. Can you name one of those studies that show I am wrong ?

How does perfect technique eliminate lower back stress (not sure what you mean by lower back stress)?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFvn7mp2NVk

In this video the shoulder muscles are being stressed by having to hold the weight in that position, the longer you hold it the effect builds up until you can no longer hold it. When cycling the lower back area muscles have to keep the upper body weight in position and even though the leverage is a lot less and perfect lower backs can cope with this stress, for those with defective lower backs the result will be lower back pain. Using my technique
the alternate working arms which together with the glutes are supplying pedalling resistance for peak torque around 1.30 o'c, also support all the upper body weight, leaving the lower back stress free. While one arm is supplying the resistance the other is supporting the upper body weight, which means there is no negative effect on the hands. This technique can only be used with the 'Scott Rake' clip on aero bars.
backdoor
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Re:

03 May 2017 14:58

Wow, you really got a lot of info from looking at one pic! Our data show no difference in hip position for the two conditions.


JayKosta wrote:From the Fig 1 photo, it appears the cyclist achieved the 'instructed position' by sitting more forward on the saddle and has his body 'center of mass' changed from being behind the bottom bracket spindle, to being over the spindle.
Do you recall if the other participants did the same position change?

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA
PhitBoy
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Re: Re:

03 May 2017 15:00

PhitBoy wrote:
backdoor wrote:"Off the bike, stand up, knees slightly bent, one foot slightly ahead like your cranks are at 3 and 9, and bend over forward 90 degrees, arms out like you're on the saddle. Now stay there.
You should feel your weight being carried by your core/abs. That's what it should feel like on the bike, go out in a parking lot and practice. Ride around without gripping around the bar, using only your fingertips. Heavy feet, light hands. Try to carry the weight in a split between the saddle and legs."

We've done that study! Only reported as a conference poster and need to write up the full manuscript. Reducing the weight on the hands increases the relative contribution of power from hip extension and reduces the contribution from knee extension. Its not in the abstract but when we told subjects to lean heavily on the bars, the contribution from knee extension went up. In other words, the more weight on your hands, the more you're using your quads.
Image


Would you get the same results if riders were in the more aero lower drops position?
backdoor
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Re:

03 May 2017 22:27

JayKosta wrote:From the Fig 1 photo, it appears the cyclist achieved the 'instructed position' by sitting more forward on the saddle and has his body 'center of mass' changed from being behind the bottom bracket spindle, to being over the spindle.
Do you recall if the other participants did the same position change?

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA


More about taking weight off the bars, complicated and not for those with bad backs.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVlcjl05epA
backdoor
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04 May 2017 01:19

You can't be serious .
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28 Jun 2017 22:56

....youse may find this useful/interesting....

Why we walk on our heels instead of our toes: Longer virtual limbs


“Humans are very efficient walkers, and a key component of being an efficient walker in all kind of mammals is having long legs,” Webber said. “Cats and dogs are up on the balls of their feet, with their heel elevated up in the air, so they’ve adapted to have a longer leg, but humans have done something different. We’ve dropped our heels down on the ground, which physically makes our legs shorter than they could be if were up on our toes, and this was a conundrum to us (scientists).”

Webber’s study, however, offers an explanation for why our heel-strike stride works so well, and it still comes down to limb length: Heel-first walking creates longer “virtual legs,” he says.

We Move Like a Human Pendulum

When humans walk, Webber says, they move like an inverted swinging pendulum, with the body essentially pivoting above the point where the foot meets the ground below. As we take a step, the center of pressure slides across the length of the foot, from heel to toe, with the true pivot point for the inverted pendulum occurring midfoot and effectively several centimeters below the ground. This, in essence, extends the length of our “virtual legs” below the ground, making them longer than our true physical legs.

As Webber explains: “Humans land on their heel and push off on their toes. You land at one point, and then you push off from another point eight to 10 inches away from where you started. If you connect those points to make a pivot point, it happens underneath the ground, basically, and you end up with a new kind of limb length that you can understand. Mechanically, it’s like we have a much longer leg than you would expect.”


http://www.aetrexblog.com/healthy-living/why-we-walk-on-our-heels-instead-of-our-toes-longer-virtual-limbs/?utm_source=salesforce&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=footprints-6-26&utm_term=lead-blog-article

Cheers
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Re:

23 Jul 2017 20:00

In case that someone missed it, there is new and interesting video from GCN about clipless vs. flat pedals...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AkMCYYNTWUY

...An issue that will never be resolved conclusively.
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25 Jul 2017 22:10

Rough roads question..I am finding that while going over really bumpy chit, that the big ring is better? Even at the same speed I find that switching from small to large makes bumps less noticeable..?It could be the lower cadence or that pressure on the pedals has my cheeks slightly raised from the seat..? I have no idea why it is better.. or why I shifted up to begin with.. but it feels better..
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Re:

27 Jul 2017 11:54

Unchained wrote:Rough roads question..I am finding that while going over really bumpy chit, that the big ring is better? Even at the same speed I find that switching from small to large makes bumps less noticeable..?It could be the lower cadence or that pressure on the pedals has my cheeks slightly raised from the seat..? I have no idea why it is better.. or why I shifted up to begin with.. but it feels better..

You are correct. By shifting to higher gear it reduces the rear wheel spinning and losing contact with road over the bumps. That is why higher volume tires at lower psi on bumpy roads are better
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Re: Re:

09 Aug 2017 17:55

Aragon wrote:In case that someone missed it, there is new and interesting video from GCN about clipless vs. flat pedals...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AkMCYYNTWUY

...An issue that will never be resolved conclusively.



https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/jbse/advpub/0/advpub_17-00234/_pdf
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