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Esteban Chaves Discussion Thread

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Re: Re:

13 Jul 2017 06:01

dirkprovin wrote:
movingtarget wrote:Considering that the had career threatening injuries before Orica picked him up and went on to make two GT podiums last year, not even he would have expected that. So he has done well to get back to the elite level but obviously this year is a write off or looks to be. Fresh start next year hopefully without injuries.


If he comes through this Tour in reasonable shape, then its not out of the question that he may show his face a bit more prominently at the Vuelta but moreso for stages than GC.

As for next season and his race schedule, much will hinge on the respective routes of each of the GTs but I think its a sure certainty that they will NOT be sending him to TDU !! :rolleyes:


Maybe not the Sun Tour either. Even though it has some decent climbing stages.
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Re: Re:

13 Jul 2017 06:28

movingtarget wrote:
dirkprovin wrote:
movingtarget wrote:Considering that the had career threatening injuries before Orica picked him up and went on to make two GT podiums last year, not even he would have expected that. So he has done well to get back to the elite level but obviously this year is a write off or looks to be. Fresh start next year hopefully without injuries.


If he comes through this Tour in reasonable shape, then its not out of the question that he may show his face a bit more prominently at the Vuelta but moreso for stages than GC.

As for next season and his race schedule, much will hinge on the respective routes of each of the GTs but I think its a sure certainty that they will NOT be sending him to TDU !! :rolleyes:


Maybe not the Sun Tour either. Even though it has some decent climbing stages.


No Sun Tour goes without saying. Orica messed up a routine that clearly "worked" for Chaves for what was essentially promotional/PR purposes. The one positive is that they've made this mistake early/in the first year of his new contract and now they know don't do this again .... either for Chaves or for either Yates !
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Re: Re:

13 Jul 2017 11:05

Lupi33x wrote:
stefank wrote:For Chaves the TdF is merely a training race. ;)


This is what I was wondering. He's had injuries this year and seemed to come to the tour on poor form he was never going to contend it.
Maybe he's soft pedaling to be hitting good form by the Vuelta.

Yes, the glimpses at the Dauphine were probably the result of freshness and big wish for racing.
I don't doubt he'll finish the season satisfied.
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Re: Re:

13 Jul 2017 12:28

Lupi33x wrote:
stefank wrote:For Chaves the TdF is merely a training race. ;)


This is what I was wondering. He's had injuries this year and seemed to come to the tour on poor form he was never going to contend it.
Maybe he's soft pedaling to be hitting good form by the Vuelta.


Chaves is not soft pedalling. He is building fitness.
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Re:

13 Jul 2017 15:59

Beech Mtn wrote:Matt White on US TV said today that Chaves' personal physiotherapist, who also works for the Orica team, died on the day of stage 2. He said this person was like family to Chaves (I think he said was "like a big sister"). It sounded like that's been tough on Chaves mentally to try to deal with that along with the Tour.

Whitey also said S.Yates and Chaves are pencilled in for the Vuelta.


I would seriously hope that White was engaging in "spin"/setting out a false trail because otherwise he ....and the team hierarchy seriously need to have their meds checked !!

Chaves may/may not have ridden himself into some sort of race condition by the end of the Tour but SY will almost certainly be fully spent given his amount of racing coming into the Tour plus the Tour itself.

It should be AY & Chaves with a call as to who may be the main man or whether dual prong is viable hinging on whether Chaves has found any semblance of form by the end of the Tour.
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Re: Re:

13 Jul 2017 16:14

dirkprovin wrote:
Beech Mtn wrote:Matt White on US TV said today that Chaves' personal physiotherapist, who also works for the Orica team, died on the day of stage 2. He said this person was like family to Chaves (I think he said was "like a big sister"). It sounded like that's been tough on Chaves mentally to try to deal with that along with the Tour.

Whitey also said S.Yates and Chaves are pencilled in for the Vuelta.


I would seriously hope that White was engaging in "spin"/setting out a false trail because otherwise he ....and the team hierarchy seriously need to have their meds checked !!

Chaves may/may not have ridden himself into some sort of race condition by the end of the Tour but SY will almost certainly be fully spent given his amount of racing coming into the Tour plus the Tour itself.

It should be AY & Chaves with a call as to who may be the main man or whether dual prong is viable hinging on whether Chaves has found any semblance of form by the end of the Tour.


Interesting to see whether Chavez will get into a break at some stage. Only Yates and Keukeliere and maybe Hayman have been in form. It's embarrassing to see Keukeliere outclimb Impey in this TDF.

I am interested in how competitive Matthews has been in flat finishes. Cort is definitely quicker and could be an option for next year's TDF if he remains at Orica.
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Re: Re:

13 Jul 2017 16:28

yaco wrote:
dirkprovin wrote:
Beech Mtn wrote:Matt White on US TV said today that Chaves' personal physiotherapist, who also works for the Orica team, died on the day of stage 2. He said this person was like family to Chaves (I think he said was "like a big sister"). It sounded like that's been tough on Chaves mentally to try to deal with that along with the Tour.

Whitey also said S.Yates and Chaves are pencilled in for the Vuelta.


I would seriously hope that White was engaging in "spin"/setting out a false trail because otherwise he ....and the team hierarchy seriously need to have their meds checked !!

Chaves may/may not have ridden himself into some sort of race condition by the end of the Tour but SY will almost certainly be fully spent given his amount of racing coming into the Tour plus the Tour itself.

It should be AY & Chaves with a call as to who may be the main man or whether dual prong is viable hinging on whether Chaves has found any semblance of form by the end of the Tour.


Interesting to see whether Chavez will get into a break at some stage. Only Yates and Keukeliere and maybe Hayman have been in form. It's embarrassing to see Keukeliere outclimb Impey in this TDF.

I am interested in how competitive Matthews has been in flat finishes. Cort is definitely quicker and could be an option for next year's TDF if he remains at Orica.


I think most have been of use at some point but I would agree that some are most certainly off their best. Impey lost time off the bike due to a crash and perhaps we are seeing the legacy. Keukeleire has been very servicable albeit unobstrusive in how he goes about it. Hayman .. no more useful than anyone else on the flat stages. Kreuziger has been reasonable enough without being stellar .... but then again Orica hasn't really attempted anything in a team sense. Howson .... been surprised that they haven't sent him up the road but maybe there's something amiss on the health front or maybe they're getting him to soft pedal so as to still have something for the Vuelta .... who knows ... all we are engaging in is supposition ?

Cort to next years TDF ?? Much will depend on the route but yes, I think that is certainly worthy of consideration although the reduction in team numbers to 8 makes such an inclusion somewhat trickier. In any case, he and Edmondson would be the quick guys I'd be sending to GTs next year.
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17 Jul 2017 11:04

From the Nibali thread, figured it would make more sense here.

portugal11 wrote:
Valv.Piti wrote:You guys are seriously forgetting Chaves. He will be fresh and ready to go!

Chaves won't be a threat at all. He is very vulnerable mentally. I don't think if he will ever be the same again. He is destroyed


He's obviously, and understandably, grieving for Casas. However, maybe that grief will spur him on? Make him want to do something to honour her memory.
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Re:

17 Jul 2017 11:25

RedheadDane wrote:From the Nibali thread, figured it would make more sense here.

portugal11 wrote:
Valv.Piti wrote:You guys are seriously forgetting Chaves. He will be fresh and ready to go!

Chaves won't be a threat at all. He is very vulnerable mentally. I don't think if he will ever be the same again. He is destroyed


He's obviously, and understandably, grieving for Casas. However, maybe that grief will spur him on? Make him want to do something to honour her memory.


Don't know whether to classify the assertion of mentally broken as just being incredibly asinine .... or utterly pathetic !! He's a human being for God's sake and they are allowed emotions.

As to whether they are actually impacting his showing at this race and/or to what degree is unknowable. What is clear is that he came into this race incredibly short of race miles and race condition ..... and is basically performing accordingly. Lets just see how he rides out this race and how he fares at the Vuelta .... hey, lets actually see how he's going around this time next year before we can actually say whether there are any long term impacts.
Last edited by dirkprovin on 17 Jul 2017 15:09, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Re:

17 Jul 2017 11:34

dirkprovin wrote:
RedheadDane wrote:From the Nibali thread, figured it would make more sense here.

portugal11 wrote:
Valv.Piti wrote:You guys are seriously forgetting Chaves. He will be fresh and ready to go!

Chaves won't be a threat at all. He is very vulnerable mentally. I don't think if he will ever be the same again. He is destroyed


He's obviously, and understandably, grieving for Casas. However, maybe that grief will spur him on? Make him want to do something to honour her memory.


Don't know whether to classify that comment as just being incredibly asinine .... or utterly pathetic !! He's a human being for God's sake and they are allowed emotions. Making a comment that someone is permanently scarred for life by a close friend's death is one enormous leap of assumption ....... or is our would-be Judge Dredd of the keyboard qualified as a psychoanalyst as well ?

As to whether they are actually impacting his showing at this race and/or to what degree is unknowable. What is clear is that he came into this race incredibly short of race miles and race condition ..... and is basically performing accordingly. Lets just see how he rides out this race and how he fares at the Vuelta .... hey, lets actually see how he's going around this time next year before we can actually say whether there are any long term impacts.


I don't see how that excludes wanting to do something for Casas. Whatever he does, and however he performs, I think it's clear that this terrible loss will be at the back of his mind for a long time, he might be able to "overcome*" it by the time of the Vuelta, or it might take significantly longer time, in the end it doesn't matter; all that matters is that he's allowed to grieve the way that fits him best, including a possible desire to win for her.
Of course this loss - together with his injury - means he isn't up to his best in this Tour, but I disagree with portugal11's claim that he's mentally weak, and therefore won't be a factor for the Vuelta. Just look at what he's already fought his way through. Overcoming a set-back like that isn't something mentally weak people do.


*Obviously you can't ever truly overcome something like that. She will always be with him.
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Re: Re:

17 Jul 2017 12:08

RedheadDane wrote:
dirkprovin wrote:
RedheadDane wrote:From the Nibali thread, figured it would make more sense here.

portugal11 wrote:
Valv.Piti wrote:You guys are seriously forgetting Chaves. He will be fresh and ready to go!

Chaves won't be a threat at all. He is very vulnerable mentally. I don't think if he will ever be the same again. He is destroyed


He's obviously, and understandably, grieving for Casas. However, maybe that grief will spur him on? Make him want to do something to honour her memory.


Don't know whether to classify that comment as just being incredibly asinine .... or utterly pathetic !! He's a human being for God's sake and they are allowed emotions. Making a comment that someone is permanently scarred for life by a close friend's death is one enormous leap of assumption ....... or is our would-be Judge Dredd of the keyboard qualified as a psychoanalyst as well ?

As to whether they are actually impacting his showing at this race and/or to what degree is unknowable. What is clear is that he came into this race incredibly short of race miles and race condition ..... and is basically performing accordingly. Lets just see how he rides out this race and how he fares at the Vuelta .... hey, lets actually see how he's going around this time next year before we can actually say whether there are any long term impacts.


I don't see how that excludes wanting to do something for Casas. Whatever he does, and however he performs, I think it's clear that this terrible loss will be at the back of his mind for a long time, he might be able to "overcome*" it by the time of the Vuelta, or it might take significantly longer time, in the end it doesn't matter; all that matters is that he's allowed to grieve the way that fits him best, including a possible desire to win for her.
Of course this loss - together with his injury - means he isn't up to his best in this Tour, but I disagree with portugal11's claim that he's mentally weak, and therefore won't be a factor for the Vuelta. Just look at what he's already fought his way through. Overcoming a set-back like that isn't something mentally weak people do.


*Obviously you can't ever truly overcome something like that. She will always be with him.


Completely agree
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17 Jul 2017 12:14

So, I didn't express myself clearly in the first post I made in this discussion? Wouldn't surprise me...
You disagreed with the first post, but agreed with the second - clarifying - post?
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Re:

17 Jul 2017 12:42

RedheadDane wrote:So, I didn't express myself clearly in the first post I made in this discussion? Wouldn't surprise me...
You disagreed with the first post, but agreed with the second - clarifying - post?


No, I essentially agreed with the basic thrust of your first post ..... and thought your 2nd post was right on the money. My scorn was firmly pointed at portugal11's assertion
Last edited by dirkprovin on 17 Jul 2017 15:10, edited 1 time in total.
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Re:

17 Jul 2017 12:47

RedheadDane wrote:From the Nibali thread, figured it would make more sense here.

portugal11 wrote:
Valv.Piti wrote:You guys are seriously forgetting Chaves. He will be fresh and ready to go!

Chaves won't be a threat at all. He is very vulnerable mentally. I don't think if he will ever be the same again. He is destroyed


He's obviously, and understandably, grieving for Casas. However, maybe that grief will spur him on? Make him want to do something to honour her memory.

At some point I am starting to question Portugal11 comments against some of the Colombians. I am not sure if he does this against other riders not named Contador from other nationalities. His comments make no sense at all.
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Re: Re:

17 Jul 2017 12:52

Escarabajo wrote:
RedheadDane wrote:From the Nibali thread, figured it would make more sense here.

portugal11 wrote:
Valv.Piti wrote:You guys are seriously forgetting Chaves. He will be fresh and ready to go!

Chaves won't be a threat at all. He is very vulnerable mentally. I don't think if he will ever be the same again. He is destroyed


He's obviously, and understandably, grieving for Casas. However, maybe that grief will spur him on? Make him want to do something to honour her memory.

At some point I am starting to question Portugal11 comments against some of the Colombians. I am not sure if he does this against other riders not named Contador from other nationalities. His comments make no sense at all.


Turns out he meant vulnerable mentally at the moment, which - obviously - includes the Vuelta...

Does anyone in the Nibali-thread realise we've moved the discussion over here?
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Re: Re:

17 Jul 2017 12:58

Escarabajo wrote:
RedheadDane wrote:From the Nibali thread, figured it would make more sense here.

portugal11 wrote:
Valv.Piti wrote:You guys are seriously forgetting Chaves. He will be fresh and ready to go!

Chaves won't be a threat at all. He is very vulnerable mentally. I don't think if he will ever be the same again. He is destroyed


He's obviously, and understandably, grieving for Casas. However, maybe that grief will spur him on? Make him want to do something to honour her memory.

At some point I am starting to question Portugal11 comments against some of the Colombians. I am not sure if he does this against other riders not named Contador from other nationalities. His comments make no sense at all.

I can see why you think that because there are some colombians who are disliked from me but chaves isn't one of them. I really like him (and gaviria) but I think he may not be able to challenge froome/nibali in the vuelta because he seems to be vulnerable mentally at the moment and can affect him forever. we don't know how important is his former coach (?)
to him. I will give the example of tyler farrar, he isn't the same rider since the death of his training partner wouter weylandt
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17 Jul 2017 13:04

It might still affect him at the Vuelta, and it might not. We'll just have to wait and see.
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17 Jul 2017 13:06

Fair point Portugal11. I don't mind any criticism as long as it is well supported.
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17 Jul 2017 14:53

After having translated your Portugese post on the Nibali thread, I will also withdraw the unkind remarks that I posted above given the misunderstandings due to language differences.
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17 Jul 2017 15:18

Chavito just need to take his time to sort it all out, physically and mentally. He will be back in 2018.

He's got plenty of time left to fulfill his potential!
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