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Disc brakes on road bikes...

Which tyres for Paris-Roubaix? Whose time trial bike is fastest? Suspension mountain bikes or singlespeeders? Talk equipment here.

Moderator: Pricey_sky

Re: Disc brakes on road bikes...

06 Aug 2017 18:50

Giuseppe Magnetico wrote:
blutto wrote:....yeah it claims to be science but the "study" only has an n of 4, so hardly the stuff to support a study but it is interesting none-the-less...

....so a pretty good rider goes down a long really fast hill in both dry and wet conditions using rim and disc brakes....

....the quick and dirty takeaway...in over 9km of screaming descent with some wicked switchbacks....the rim brakes "win" by two seconds in the dry and "lose" by eight seconds in the wet....and on a top end bike you would be spending near $10,000 to go disc and then hamper yourself with extra weight for the "money" part of the trip, the uphill....and you don't believe me go ask Marcel Kittel, he knows stuff and even has some practical experience....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t0hKMgUEku4

....file under just sayin eh....

Cheers



When all we see is Kittel's Venge on stilts over and over and over again people are going to assume that 7.9kg is normal for a disc equipped bike. Throw a set tubular wheels on a Focus Izalco Max, Giant TCR Advanced, S-Works Tarmac or a few more lightweights out there and you would need to ballast the bike to comply with the 6.8kg UCI weight limit. "Hamper yourself"..... You sure about that?


....last I checked the bike industry isn't hampered much by the 6.8kg limit as the vast majority of bikes go to non-racers....so do you actually have a point or just trying to get the last word in....?....

Cheers
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Re: Disc brakes on road bikes...

06 Aug 2017 19:35

What last word? This is just beginning... again. You want to talk about paying for more weight and conflating the consumer market with what a pro is doing. So let's discuss. The "money" part of a race, pro or amateur, or just a spirited ride with friends are the climbs. Just as you alluded to, and I fully agree. Though, 15lb complete disc road race bikes can be had whether you're required to pass a technical inspection or not. So, who's "hampered" exactly and why?
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Re: Re:

10 Aug 2017 20:23

Giuseppe Magnetico wrote:
blutto wrote:
....kinda funny twist in the Kittel saga, you know about the guy who is the poster boy for the technology that will save the bike industry ( this year )....and making a courageous stand against the forces of ignorance and so on and so for forth.....

...seems our dauntless saintly hero has dumped the disc brakes when he hit the mountains....you know the place where grams count.....and oddly enough where discs, we are told, are supposed to give their bestest advantages....

....so the story so far....saint uses the latest holy water where it doesn't have an advantage and dumps them where they theoretically should...it could just be me but this kinda stinks to high heaven don't it....does anyone else smell marketing scam ( I mean think about it, to get on that disc train to the glorious future you literally have to replace your entire bike....gosh the industry must just be salivating at the prospects....ooooh, we love the smell of profits in the morning, it smells like victory...)

Cheers


Cute story. However, no amount of waxing poetic can make up for lack of experience on the subject because you really only hear "marketing scam" from people with none. Can you imagine, an industry is seeking profit?!?.......Crazy, I know! It may be a stretch but I think you might be exempt from the death grip of the marketing department's disc brake crusade. Whew, what a relief! Right?


....gee why don't we throw this into the stew, you know, for some historical perspective.....and from the horse's mouth no less ( this from your response to Busted earlier in this thread )....

You know what's really silly? Everything you hate about bikes (that's king silly initself) 1x, disc, gravel specific things, bigger tires,.... this 'all-road' or 'adventure' side that you despise so much is the only segment of the industry that saw any growth this year. Pure road bike sales have absolutely tanked


....but my spidey sense tells me there is something new just around the corner to revive those tanked sales and "fix" the inevitable desperation that inevitably goes hand-in-hand with such a situation....hmmm what could it be ? and what could it need to implement fully ? new frame$ ? new wheel$ ? new brake system$ ?....btw just rewatched that GCN video....can you say marginal gains ?....

...and 'nother btw, just picked up some new wheels, you know like the ones you used to talk about, and for a screaming deal....the shop was literally tossing them because they didn't want to get caught with dead stock before the disc surge they have been assured is coming....now if I'm patient a newish bike will soon wander into my sights...can hardly wait....so by all means please keep fanning the flames, I need those fires hotter under the mark's bums.....

Cheers
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Re: Re:

10 Aug 2017 21:26

blutto wrote:....but my spidey sense tells me there is something new just around the corner to revive those tanked sales and "fix" the inevitable desperation that inevitably goes hand-in-hand with such a situation....hmmm what could it be ? and what could it need to implement fully ? new frame$ ? new wheel$ ? new brake system$ ?....btw just rewatched that GCN video....can you say marginal gains ?....


Sure, marginal gains... Since when has this sport and the evolution of the equipment been about much else? Though I wonder how that GCN 'test' in the dry would have went before wheel manufacturers started heavily texturizing brake tracks only in the last couple of years. Just as rim braking on carbon wheels starts to get somewhat reasonable it's on it's way out, and in a hurry.

...and 'nother btw, just picked up some new wheels, you know like the ones you used to talk about, and for a screaming deal....the shop was literally tossing them because they didn't want to get caught with dead stock before the disc surge they have been assured is coming....now if I'm patient a newish bike will soon wander into my sights...can hardly wait....so by all means please keep fanning the flames, I need those fires hotter under the mark's bums.....


Sounds about right, only that shop might be a bit slow to the punch. The "surge" of road disc started about 3 years ago. From a wheels perspective my rim vs. disc sales flipped to majority disc 7 years ago when the UCI announced legal for CX. Since the beginning of this year only about 5 or 6 rim brake sets have been built here.
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Re: Re:

10 Aug 2017 23:15

Giuseppe Magnetico wrote:
blutto wrote:....but my spidey sense tells me there is something new just around the corner to revive those tanked sales and "fix" the inevitable desperation that inevitably goes hand-in-hand with such a situation....hmmm what could it be ? and what could it need to implement fully ? new frame$ ? new wheel$ ? new brake system$ ?....btw just rewatched that GCN video....can you say marginal gains ?....


Sure, marginal gains... Since when has this sport and the evolution of the equipment been about much else? Though I wonder how that GCN 'test' in the dry would have went before wheel manufacturers started heavily texturizing brake tracks only in the last couple of years. Just as rim braking on carbon wheels starts to get somewhat reasonable it's on it's way out, and in a hurry.

...and 'nother btw, just picked up some new wheels, you know like the ones you used to talk about, and for a screaming deal....the shop was literally tossing them because they didn't want to get caught with dead stock before the disc surge they have been assured is coming....now if I'm patient a newish bike will soon wander into my sights...can hardly wait....so by all means please keep fanning the flames, I need those fires hotter under the mark's bums.....


Sounds about right, only that shop might be a bit slow to the punch. The "surge" of road disc started about 3 years ago. From a wheels perspective my rim vs. disc sales flipped to majority disc 7 years ago when the UCI announced legal for CX. Since the beginning of this year only about 5 or 6 rim brake sets have been built here.


....yeah we have never been as fashion conscious as youse guys.....but we try, and we can be very trying at times....

Cheers
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11 Aug 2017 01:27

Yes, you know this disc brake thing is so glamorous... :rolleyes:

Only the most glittery glitterati dare have a look at my rotors. Unhand those hydros you peasant! [humph!]
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Re:

11 Aug 2017 11:36

Giuseppe Magnetico wrote:Yes, you know this disc brake thing is so glamorous... :rolleyes:

Only the most glittery glitterati dare have a look at my rotors. Unhand those hydros you peasant! [humph!]


....so your study of the situation shows a huge surge in disc usage....

....funny you should say that but recently the triathlon circus came to town and we went out to see the fun....there must have been 600 bikes go by, and not one equipped with discs....and these are, as you put it, the most glittery glitterati on the road, moneyed early adopter folks who have historically jumped on any and all available shiny baubles backed by a good story....I know triathlon folks who have basements full of the old latest and greatest....and even in this crowd no discs....

....so yeah, maybe we really are the backwater that cycling fashion forgot....because it seems that even our traditionally most fashionable are hopelessly behind the times....

....or it could well be that your study cited above, and the results you hinge your argument on, is flawed....first because the sample group you rely on, CX riders, is a very thin slice of the cycling culture that reflects nothing more than its own self interests....and two, the core business you are involved in, building custom wheels, is rapidly waning ( the only bits left are those in places like the CX community....the vast majority of others are going pre-built...)....just a thought....

Cheers
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11 Aug 2017 12:52

Currently there are no TT brake levers that work with hydraulic brakes, at least not when I last looked a couple of months ago, which limits people to cable-pull disc as a stop-gap that most are not happy with. There are also many other considerations when it comes to tri, not least that the tri specific frames have hardly come out with disc brakes, even most TT frames don't have a disc version at the moment from what I've seen.

Why? Well because braking has always been of least consideration in a TT/Tri, which is generally run on a flat, fairly easy course and many times closed roads.

For what it's worth I believe both the Andean and P5X, supposedly the most aero bikes in existence from what I've read, are disc only, so I would certainly expect more and more TT/tri rigs with disc brakes to start showing up.
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Re:

11 Aug 2017 13:44

King Boonen wrote:Currently there are no TT brake levers that work with hydraulic brakes, at least not when I last looked a couple of months ago, which limits people to cable-pull disc as a stop-gap that most are not happy with. There are also many other considerations when it comes to tri, not least that the tri specific frames have hardly come out with disc brakes, even most TT frames don't have a disc version at the moment from what I've seen.

Why? Well because braking has always been of least consideration in a TT/Tri, which is generally run on a flat, fairly easy course and many times closed roads.

For what it's worth I believe both the Andean and P5X, supposedly the most aero bikes in existence from what I've read, are disc only, so I would certainly expect more and more TT/tri rigs with disc brakes to start showing up.


....funny that one would add a device that adds aerodynamic drag to a time trial bike....must be a real good story to sell that....

Cheers
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Re: Re:

11 Aug 2017 13:55

blutto wrote:the core business you are involved in, building custom wheels, is rapidly waning ( the only bits left are those in places like the CX community....the vast majority of others are going pre-built...)....just a thought....


Um, well that's news to me and my peers. Then how do my sales keep ticking up every year since I LLC'd? In fact Independent custom wheel builders are doing more business than ever, just had a conversation about this the other day with the Sapim spoke importer. The majority will always be pre-built, but poor form on your part trying to poo-poo my job. What's your profession, internet troll? Keep up the great work, doing a bang up job! [thumbs up].
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Re: Re:

11 Aug 2017 14:55

Giuseppe Magnetico wrote:
blutto wrote:the core business you are involved in, building custom wheels, is rapidly waning ( the only bits left are those in places like the CX community....the vast majority of others are going pre-built...)....just a thought....


Um, well that's news to me and my peers. Then how do my sales keep ticking up every year since I LLC'd? In fact Independent custom wheel builders are doing more business than ever, just had a conversation about this the other day with the Sapim spoke importer. The majority will always be pre-built, but poor form on your part trying to poo-poo my job. What's your profession, internet troll? Keep up the great work, doing a bang up job! [thumbs up].


....could you please point out where I poopoo your business....please note a business can also wane because of a lack of demand and not because of the quality of the work, and that was the point I was making ( and who knows you may actually make world class wheels but frankly I don't know one way or the other....but to be generous lets assume you do and leave it at that...)....

....so just for the sake of keeping the filing simple do I put your accusation of poor form that you made above along side the baseless accusation you made earlier of me using information gleaned from private e-mails ?....btw that file is getting pretty fat so you may want cut down on the smearing, and besides we already have a very good idea "where you are coming from" so you don't have to go out of your way to embellish it....

...just sayin' eh...

....btw love the internet troll thingee.....the hits just keep coming eh....gee can I put that on my resume ?....it would rather nicely round it out...

Cheers
Last edited by blutto on 12 Aug 2017 02:40, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Re:

11 Aug 2017 14:56

blutto wrote:
King Boonen wrote:Currently there are no TT brake levers that work with hydraulic brakes, at least not when I last looked a couple of months ago, which limits people to cable-pull disc as a stop-gap that most are not happy with. There are also many other considerations when it comes to tri, not least that the tri specific frames have hardly come out with disc brakes, even most TT frames don't have a disc version at the moment from what I've seen.

Why? Well because braking has always been of least consideration in a TT/Tri, which is generally run on a flat, fairly easy course and many times closed roads.

For what it's worth I believe both the Andean and P5X, supposedly the most aero bikes in existence from what I've read, are disc only, so I would certainly expect more and more TT/tri rigs with disc brakes to start showing up.


....funny that one would add a device that adds aerodynamic drag to a time trial bike....must be a real good story to sell that....

Cheers


Starting from a faulty premise is always a drag.
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Reduce your carbon footprint, ride steel.
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Re: Re:

11 Aug 2017 15:12

King Boonen wrote:
blutto wrote:
King Boonen wrote:Currently there are no TT brake levers that work with hydraulic brakes, at least not when I last looked a couple of months ago, which limits people to cable-pull disc as a stop-gap that most are not happy with. There are also many other considerations when it comes to tri, not least that the tri specific frames have hardly come out with disc brakes, even most TT frames don't have a disc version at the moment from what I've seen.

Why? Well because braking has always been of least consideration in a TT/Tri, which is generally run on a flat, fairly easy course and many times closed roads.

For what it's worth I believe both the Andean and P5X, supposedly the most aero bikes in existence from what I've read, are disc only, so I would certainly expect more and more TT/tri rigs with disc brakes to start showing up.


....funny that one would add a device that adds aerodynamic drag to a time trial bike....must be a real good story to sell that....

Cheers


Starting from a faulty premise is always a drag.


....curious, what was the false premise ?....

Cheers
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Re: Re:

11 Aug 2017 15:44

blutto wrote:
King Boonen wrote:
blutto wrote:
King Boonen wrote:Currently there are no TT brake levers that work with hydraulic brakes, at least not when I last looked a couple of months ago, which limits people to cable-pull disc as a stop-gap that most are not happy with. There are also many other considerations when it comes to tri, not least that the tri specific frames have hardly come out with disc brakes, even most TT frames don't have a disc version at the moment from what I've seen.

Why? Well because braking has always been of least consideration in a TT/Tri, which is generally run on a flat, fairly easy course and many times closed roads.

For what it's worth I believe both the Andean and P5X, supposedly the most aero bikes in existence from what I've read, are disc only, so I would certainly expect more and more TT/tri rigs with disc brakes to start showing up.


....funny that one would add a device that adds aerodynamic drag to a time trial bike....must be a real good story to sell that....

Cheers


Starting from a faulty premise is always a drag.


....curious, what was the false premise ?....

Cheers


Both Cervelo and Diamondback claim that the disc brake is more aero as it is easier to hide in these bikes. I'm guessing the difference is minimal, it'll be drag of the pads on a Look-like concealed caliper or intergrated caplier at the front/back of the fork Vs. the drag on a disc/exposed edge of a disc caliper, but apparently it's there. They could be lying of course, but I'm not sure it would be necessary considering the changes to the bike. It's not an new year, same shape, different paint job kind of thing where you need a selling point. It's a new (to them at least) shift in bike design. If anything they could have made a rim version then a disc version with a claim for better aerodynamics, then I would be suspicious.

Remember that the 3:1 rule does not apply to these bikes as they do not need to be UCI approved for triathlons, so hiding even a relatively bulky caliper wouldn't be an issue and as the fork it most likely going to be an aero-foil shape anyway, it probably doesn't take much or any extra engineering.

Also, I think the UCI have redefined the 3:1 rule, I'd have to check, but that might allow TT bikes to follow suit.
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Re: Re:

12 Aug 2017 17:01

blutto wrote:....could you please point out where I poopoo your business....please note a business can also wane because of a lack of demand and not because of the quality of the work, and that was the point I was making ( and who knows you may actually make world class wheels but frankly I don't know one way or the other....but to be generous lets assume you do and leave it at that...)....


the core business you are involved in, building custom wheels, is rapidly waning


Pretty idiotic statement considering custom builders never had it so good. But that's your steez right, take digs even if what you have to say here is clearly wrong. And so you recently attended a local triathlon and didn't see any disc brakes... wow... just, wow. What a fine example to back up your argument (whatever the hell that is). It's quite evident that your return to this thread has nothing to do with having a discussion about disc brakes on road bikes at all, only about pursuing that grudge.

....so just for the sake of keeping the filing simple do I put your accusation of poor form that you made above along side the baseless accusation you made earlier of me using information gleaned from private e-mails ?....btw that file is getting pretty fat so you may want cut down on the smearing, and besides we already have a very good idea "where you are coming from" so you don't have to go out of your way to embellish it....

...just sayin' eh...

....btw love the internet troll thingee.....the hits just keep coming eh....gee can I put that on my resume ?....it would rather nicely round it out...


Think you forgot, and it is so simple... I'm not the one that just served a 2 week ban... just sayin' eh... ;)
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Re: Re:

12 Aug 2017 22:03

Giuseppe Magnetico wrote:
blutto wrote:....could you please point out where I poopoo your business....please note a business can also wane because of a lack of demand and not because of the quality of the work, and that was the point I was making ( and who knows you may actually make world class wheels but frankly I don't know one way or the other....but to be generous lets assume you do and leave it at that...)....


the core business you are involved in, building custom wheels, is rapidly waning


Pretty idiotic statement considering custom builders never had it so good. But that's your steez right, take digs even if what you have to say here is clearly wrong. And so you recently attended a local triathlon and didn't see any disc brakes... wow... just, wow. What a fine example to back up your argument (whatever the hell that is). It's quite evident that your return to this thread has nothing to do with having a discussion about disc brakes on road bikes at all, only about pursuing that grudge.

....so just for the sake of keeping the filing simple do I put your accusation of poor form that you made above along side the baseless accusation you made earlier of me using information gleaned from private e-mails ?....btw that file is getting pretty fat so you may want cut down on the smearing, and besides we already have a very good idea "where you are coming from" so you don't have to go out of your way to embellish it....

...just sayin' eh...

....btw love the internet troll thingee.....the hits just keep coming eh....gee can I put that on my resume ?....it would rather nicely round it out...


Think you forgot, and it is so simple... I'm not the one that just served a 2 week ban... just sayin' eh... ;)


....nope....blutto got excellent memory...blutto not forget....
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Re: Disc brakes on road bikes...

15 Aug 2017 12:10

....interesting thread has popped up on Weight Weenies.....When does the bottom fall out to sell rim brake bikes?

http://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=146942

...gonna being be real interesting how this will ultimately play out....sure the disc thingee can be seen to possibly carry the field using a big push from the bike industry and their various camp followers....but is gonna be real interesting, what will happen when people who pay huge money for the conversion find only GCN level improvements ( well they will be able to parade around on their deep carbon clincher wheels but beyond that, miniscule , if any performance benefits )....will they feel hoodwinked by an industry hell bent only on profits or will the ability to parade around trump that...

Cheers
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Re: Disc brakes on road bikes...

15 Aug 2017 14:58

blutto wrote:....interesting thread has popped up on Weight Weenies.....When does the bottom fall out to sell rim brake bikes?

http://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=146942

...gonna being be real interesting how this will ultimately play out....sure the disc thingee can be seen to possibly carry the field using a big push from the bike industry and their various camp followers....but is gonna be real interesting, what will happen when people who pay huge money for the conversion find only GCN level improvements ( well they will be able to parade around on their deep carbon clincher wheels but beyond that, miniscule , if any performance benefits )....will they feel hoodwinked by an industry hell bent only on profits or will the ability to parade around trump that...

Cheers


Looks like we got ourselves a slow learner here....not to mention a freeloader looking for handouts :o

An industry looking for profits.....who would have thunk it???

Best stick to Politics B-Unit, your copy and paste skills are exemplary in that domain......here, not so much.....unless of course you want to be owned by those who actually know what they're talking about....and bringing the giggles :D
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Re: Disc brakes on road bikes...

15 Aug 2017 15:52

JackRabbitSlims wrote:
blutto wrote:....interesting thread has popped up on Weight Weenies.....When does the bottom fall out to sell rim brake bikes?

http://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=146942

...gonna being be real interesting how this will ultimately play out....sure the disc thingee can be seen to possibly carry the field using a big push from the bike industry and their various camp followers....but is gonna be real interesting, what will happen when people who pay huge money for the conversion find only GCN level improvements ( well they will be able to parade around on their deep carbon clincher wheels but beyond that, miniscule , if any performance benefits )....will they feel hoodwinked by an industry hell bent only on profits or will the ability to parade around trump that...

Cheers


Looks like we got ourselves a slow learner here....not to mention a freeloader looking for handouts :o

An industry looking for profits.....who would have thunk it???

Best stick to Politics B-Unit, your copy and paste skills are exemplary in that domain......here, not so much.....unless of course you want to be owned by those who actually know what they're talking about....and bringing the giggles :D


....don't begrudge profit per se, but do take umbrage with profits gained from marketing scams that push $h!t in a bag that has little if any increased marginal utility over the product it replaces....

....freeloader eh...very surprised you didn't go full monty and say what you really feel, something like your brother in arms dropped here recently , something like creepy, emotionally bankrupt, mentally unstable freeloader....whoops, there was slow learner, so you did get your dig in...congrats, you successfully expanded the insult field....gold star for you !....

.....and if this is about snagging obsolete stuff that people would ordinarily send to the dump, well that isn't freeloading its re-cycling.....which btw is very hip these days...you might want to check the concept out...

....and I have copy and paste skills, my, what a swell back-handed complement....gotta say condescension becomes you....you wear it well, and well you should, being as you are part of the crowd who actually know what they're talking about...as opposed to us common proles....

Cheers
Last edited by blutto on 16 Aug 2017 11:10, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Disc brakes on road bikes...

15 Aug 2017 20:19

blutto wrote:....interesting thread has popped up on Weight Weenies.....When does the bottom fall out to sell rim brake bikes?

http://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=146942

...gonna being be real interesting how this will ultimately play out....sure the disc thingee can be seen to possibly carry the field using a big push from the bike industry and their various camp followers....but is gonna be real interesting, what will happen when people who pay huge money for the conversion find only GCN level improvements ( well they will be able to parade around on their deep carbon clincher wheels but beyond that, miniscule , if any performance benefits )....will they feel hoodwinked by an industry hell bent only on profits or will the ability to parade around trump that...

Cheers


Hmm, for the past 10 years of disc brakes on drop bar bikes I have yet to personally come across someone who bought the bike and thought it was a mistake. What I do experience is many forehead slapping V8 moments, like why didn't they do it earlier. Funny too that now you hold the GCN vid up as a benchmark for your position, yet when you posted it you even admit that it was hardly a conclusive test. Gotta make your mind up.
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