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Doping in XC skiing

The Clinic is the only place on Cyclingnews where you can discuss doping-related issues. Ask questions, discuss positives or improvements to procedures.

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Re: Re:

18 Aug 2017 15:46

python wrote:
Blaaswix wrote:Norwegian media reporting that the Johaug CAS verdict has been delayed again, it should have been released at the latest tomorrow. Popcorn ready for Tuesday the 21st, afternoon.

What might the delay mean?
oh boy, it was so entertaining to read the old and incurable norge fanboy thrashing (guess the handle :lol:) by just about everyone :D a word of advice to you folks, take it easy on the dude or he will call you, like it was a case with me 2-3 years ago, a child molesters or whatever his 'retort' was to me seeing a norwegian doping apologist for what he was ...he should be careful though, according to some most recent feedback, he can earn a lifeban for the very singular reference :idea:

anyways, the cas delay as you pointed out is interesting...i just read they will publish the decision on the 22nd aug.
Why the delay ? hard to tell, but it could have been EITHER a delay granted by the panel for submitting some document, or, more likely, there is a split within the 3-person panel as to the final decision. 2 vs 1 or 1 vs 2...

I see our lil threrese tearing profusely again...and it wont be with joy. simply b/c the national anti-doping favoritism was way to arrogant for most non norges...my humble opinion.


I didn't call you a child molester, I was pointing out that lies can be just as hurtful as the truth.

Either you are retarded and unable to comprehend context or you are trolling. I'm going to be gracious and assume trolling.
Context:
It starts from this post:
viewtopic.php?p=1392554#p1392554


Python really doesn't like people pointing out his mistakes. Or was it intentional misinformation?

So please lay of the trolling Python. You should know better.
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Re: Re:

18 Aug 2017 17:11

ToreBear wrote:
Libertine Seguros wrote:ToreBear, the example of Evi Sachenbacher-Stehle was because her positive test at the Olympics was allegedly caused by a contaminant or unlabelled ingredient of a herbal tea concoction recommended to her by an advisor (not an official team doctor though). So interested in how you feel strict liability plays out in Evi's case compared to Therese's, considering on the face of it she should be more innocent (there was far less reason for her to know the forbidden substance was in the item than Johaug) but the fact the doctor wasn't official and that she had previous (the hematocrit incident at the Torino Olympics) also play into the roles.

I've also noted that back in February, you used the same explanation for why you didn't feel the Norwegians' use of asthma treatment was playing in grey areas - that it is common practice among other teams. However, when pressed for more detail on who outside of Norway used asthma treatment this way, Manificat was the only example you had to hand. Are there any others to back up your point, or where has this argument that it is common practice come from?

And how, pray tell, is people who do not have asthma using asthma treatment not playing in the grey areas? After all, there are numerous members of the XC team who declare they do not have asthma but sometimes use the treatment. Only Emil Iversen declares that he doesn't use the nebulizers, out of 5 who announce they don't have asthma (including a lot of my favourites such as Røthe, too). Brandsdal and Tønseth fob us off with "when it is necessary" (different worlds, but La Bomba springs to mind) and "when there are similar symptoms". Maybe that's what the Austrians have been doing wrong - if only Johannes Dürr had explained that he had felt similar symptoms to kidney disease, so a preventative course of EPO was the only logical response ;)

Your arguments about the Norwegian Anti-Doping authorities might even be relatively persuasive if they weren't prefaced by a comment ("because they say so") that is clearly incendiary and designed to spark a hostile response. After all, I can dig out quotes where the Russians claim the excellent status of their anti-doping regulations, and Andreas Klöden testifying that Astana have among the best internal controls in the pro péloton. Your other arguments on this point hold much more value and don't need to be held back by an appeal to that kind of cheap heat. Reliance on the "you are mis-informed" counterargument can only get you so far - what are the information sources we need to be using to be adequately informed, and can you vouch for their objectivity?

Like I said before, there might be a bit of the Mick Rogers Clenbuterol Blues here, in that Therese might actually just have made a mistake. A colossal brain-fade mistake, but a mistake nonetheless, but the perception of sanctimoniousness on the Norwegian part meant that it was seen in a way as some kind of karma for a big Norwegian name to fall in such a way. I can even see the argument that the intention was not performance-enhancing here, but certain features of the story really don't stack up which leads towards one of the following:

- genuine mistake, but the fact that both doctor and athlete failed to recognize an obvious sign, which is an oversight of such magnitude that ignorance is no appropriate defence and a suspension is warranted for the gross failure in due diligence. And defending this as the doctor's fault is a ridiculous level of absolving Therese of any responsibility for her own actions; she's not a child, she's not a naïve rookie either, she's a grown woman who's been at the pinnacle of the sport for half a decade.
- wilful mistake, i.e. the "don't ask questions don't hear lies" school of thought. Which is reckless when playing about with potential bans, and unlikely as a result as you would have thought similar cases would proliferate among the team if so. Willfully ignoring a warning on the label is a dangerous option in which case she deserves everything she gets.
- knew that what Therese was taking was banned but banking on not being tested as it was out of season and out of competition. In which case it was a gamble that didn't pay off and the ban is deserved.

There is no way to say that Therese was innocent and not responsible for what was used unless they can maybe prove the doctor discarded the box with the doping warning, or forcibly applied the cream against her will or without her knowledge; the former is reckless and counter to the officially-presented explanation, and the latter is extremely unlikely; both would likely have resulted in lawsuits against the doctor, which have not been forthcoming. Otherwise, to reprieve her is to completely remove the basic tenet of strict liability, because absolving her of responsibility leaves the implication that athletes are unthinking, unknowing automatons at the mercy of the staff and under no obligation to actually understand and think about the anti-doping code. She may not have intended to gain any advantage from the cream, but you also seem to believe that she should not have to take any responsibility for her own actions, which is the only way you can justify her not facing consequences for the oversight.

"Learning without thinking is useless. Thinking without learning is dangerous" - Confucius

I don't remember right now the source for that information. It might have been from the team coaches meting during the world champs in Lahti, were the swedes said they were all alone. A here is an article about that.
https://www.dagbladet.no/sport/sverige-foler-seg-helt-alene-etter-astmamote-i-lahti---vi-er-nok-ensomme-om-dette/67341694
Come on, do you think everyone here has the memoral capacity of a jellyfish? When the Swedes said they felt alone, it was directed on the use of Nebulizers.
ToreBear wrote:As for who gets treated with asthma meds, I thought we had cleared that up back in february? My understanding is that asthma medication has other medical approved uses than pure asthma. Also it is also beneficial to use as a prophilactic.
It's all in the Asthma report:
https://www.skiforbundet.no/contentassets/de0fe93897e34b2fa2c2cf71811a2c04/utvalgsrapport-15.2.2017.pdf
IIRC The Swedish specialist felt the athletes were often under medicated....
I'm sure Durr would have had the medical community backing him on this..... ;)
Once again you're blurring what was said.

- Firstly, remember that the report was a commission by the Norwegian Ski Federation. The "independent" observers were heavily connected to Norwegian sports and especially the Swedish expert is a notorious asthma medication junkie with both legs deeply buried in the medical industrial complex.
- Secondly, the report did only scrutinize the use of medicines concerning asthma and respiratory. This was of course highly problematic since it is a well known fact that with different combinations of drugs, you can achieve performance enhancing effects, especially with Beta2-agonists and different steroids. Not anywhere in the report were to be find anything about which TUEs had been granted to the Norwegian skiers.
- Thirdly, FIS doping expert Rasmus Damsgaard, basically agreed with the Swedish team and said in the reports aftermath: if you need a Nebulizer you should stay at home and not participate in races. Further on he said that you should have scientific evidence before you treat people.

What bothers me ToreBear, is that I suspect you're an educated person. There's some aboslute freaks - both Swedes and Norwegians - on different Swedish forums debating the very same issues. But they are clearly not equipped with a scientific mindset and they are basically a Nordic version of WT. But your argumentation is so selective, so dishonest, so one-sided, so hyper nationalistic, that it really casts a shadow on Norwegians in general and Norwegian ski supporters in particular. And if educated, it also casts a shadow over Norwegian higher education.

Your arguments the last week are sickening. Period.
Discgear
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18 Aug 2017 19:31

@Disgcear I think this is also a rehash. We have had this discussion before. Its because of my scientific mindset that I have come to the conclusions I have.

Your are saying I'm bluring, while with my eyes it looks like you are bluring. It doesn't seem like we can agree on basic facts. The medical and Norwegian sporting industrial complex is an interesting take. Don't think there were any unusual connections between Norwegian sport and the independent observers. But I'm sure coauthoring papers 20 years ago is a clear sign of collusion and is totally abnormal in your world.

I really don't see anyway you will be convinced of anything other than some Norwegian doping conspiracy. It's not there, but you will keep looking, and every little bit of information you get is twisted until it supports your theory of its existence.

I've noticed some forums and there people seem to have created their little world of doping conspiracies. No amount of factual information seems to penetrate and be internalized.

So why should I waste more time on it?
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18 Aug 2017 23:13

"No amount of factual information seems to penetrate and be internalized" - perfect description of the Betonkopf, no?

Anyway, how are you getting on with your list of nations who are using the "common practice" of using asthma treatment for non-asthmatics in the same fashion as Norway? Since last time your assertion that this was common practice in several nations was questioned, you could only name Maurice Manificat as an example. As you've gone back to the assertion that it is done by several nations and trump up your scientific mindset, I can only presume that you have unearthed further evidence that backs up your assertion, as restating an unsatisfactory conclusion would surely be a no-no?

And again, your remarks seem designed to draw hostility. Firstly because of the use of terms like "it's not there", just like your earlier use of arguments like the Norwegian anti-doping authority is excellent "because they say they are" and appeals to the higher Norwegian moral fibre regarding doping, implies a level of certainty that is simply impossible to back given the history of the sport and the behaviours we've seen (I mean ffs, "no rules have been broken" is one thing, and "there has been no convincing evidence to date" is perhaps a better and less combative way to make the same point). And secondly because making selective arguments and refusing point blank on several occasions to take any counter-argument on board, or cede any ground even when massively compromised (seriously, continuing to argue "Therese is innocent, it's the doctor's fault" makes a mockery of the basic tenet of strict liability and also begs a serious question as to why the Norwegians haven't taken action against the doctor responsible for letting down a star athlete in such a spectacular way, and continuing to argue that there isn't even any grey area in gaining advantage by presenting athletes with health treatments they don't need for conditions that they don't have does nobody any good - just admit "they gained advantage without breaking the rules, so anybody else could do it if they so wished and if they didn't, more fool them" and it would be far less combative), makes you a hypocrite when you then criticise others for failing to take on board your points. Even when the video you so love pointing people to, about the gorilla and the basketball, has been pointed out for its flaws in relevance to the particular incident on more than one occasion (and nevertheless, you insist that if anybody doesn't now agree with you, they must not have watched the video in full).

It's also not that everybody thinks there is a colossal doping conspiracy going on involving every member of the Norwegian Ski Federation or anything. It's just that in the manner you post, you act like you're refusing to even entertain the possibility that any of the Norwegians might not be as pure as the driven snow. With the little asides about why Johaug being Norwegian should be taken into account as an additional factor as to why her protestations of innocence should be treated with more credence, it's hard to believe that you're not just on the wind-up, or at the very least are determined to hold on to Norway's claim to the moral high ground until the bitter end and have decided attack is the best form of defence.
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Re: Doping in XC skiing

19 Aug 2017 09:23

Reading the comments under the line on the few articles in the Norwegian press about Johaug in recent days, I detect a growing tiredness with the whole affair and a change in the way norwegians view the case. There are still a few that take the Tore Bear approach, but they seem to be a lot fewer and there are more that seem irritated by the presumption by the assorted media that it's some sort of a patriotic duty to support Johaug no matter what. There is, I think, some sort of small reaction against the whole circus now.
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20 Aug 2017 11:51

I live in Norway. Naïvety as displayed by ToreBear is dime a dozen here, so his posts don't surprise me one bit.

A dysfunctional anti-doping agency that couldn't even catch a cold and a borderline maniacal sense of patriotism will do that to people. Some Norwegians genuinely believe the lack of Norwegian positives is because our athletes don't dope, and that they're just naturally 10-15% better than everyone else. It's sad.

Our athletes aren't better, but our anti-doping agency is definitely sh*t.
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Re:

20 Aug 2017 13:35

Saint Unix wrote:I live in Norway. Naïvety as displayed by ToreBear is dime a dozen here, so his posts don't surprise me one bit.

A dysfunctional anti-doping agency that couldn't even catch a cold and a borderline maniacal sense of patriotism will do that to people. Some Norwegians genuinely believe the lack of Norwegian positives is because our athletes don't dope, and that they're just naturally 10-15% better than everyone else. It's sad.

Our athletes aren't better, but our anti-doping agency is definitely sh*t.

This is a few years old take on the issue, but one proponent of the idea that the Norwegians have naturally anti-doping mindset is none other than the doping historian Erkki Vettenniemi who wrote the following essay some three years ago:

http://idrottsforum.org/forumbloggen/what-science-says-about-doping-in-norway/

I am not quite certain if this is a satirical take on how unreliable polls are or is this guy serious because:

1) He is a heavy proponent of the theory that Norwegian Gjermund Eggen was one of the first blood dopers in the 1966 FIS Nordic World Ski Championships when he started being 16th at 30km but won three golds later in the games (not then a banned method but portrays their ethical stance in a weird light).
http://idrottsforum.org/forumbloggen/triple-victory-for-norwegian-sport-medicine/

2) In his other books, he ridicules the notion that polls could tell the real opinion of athletes because they have vested interest to lie and downplay the prevalence of doping use/availability etc.
3) He himself isn't reluctant at all in accepting practically every doping-related rumour as fact.
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22 Aug 2017 08:44

in a couple of hours we will (should) find out of the cas decision on johaug...

a former cas member thinks that the sundby case may play against poor therese chances. in brief, her sole defense of relying exclusively on the doc just weeks AFTER sundby failed in cas using the same logic, may according to this lawyer, accentuate her negligence.

https://www.nrk.no/sport/derfor-kan-sundby-dommen-knuse-johaugs-ol-drom-1.13650711

and another one...it can be interesting to those like diskgear who wondered for a while why the fis does not publish the names of its ad panel members. the weird twist here though is the norwegian antidoping tsar whining about....the fis secrecy :lol: where was this anti-secrecy agent when fis - also in total secret - decided to acquit sundby :Question:

so if the judgment went in favour of his compatriot, the antidoper huncho WASN'T concerned. when his compatriot got in trouble, he blasts fis secrecy.

a bigger hypocrisy from the one who supposed to uphold impartiality due to the very nature of his job is difficult to imagine

http://www.vg.no/sport/langrenn/antidoping-norge-sjef-angriper-fis-hemmelighold-rundt-johaug-anke/a/23951438/
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Re:

22 Aug 2017 08:51

python wrote:in a couple of hours we will (should) find out of the cas decision on johaug...

a former cas member thinks that the sundby case may play against poor therese chances. in brief, her sole defense of relying exclusively on the doc just weeks AFTER sundby failed in cas using the same logic, may according to this lawyer, accentuate her negligence.

https://www.nrk.no/sport/derfor-kan-sundby-dommen-knuse-johaugs-ol-drom-1.13650711

and another one...it can be interesting to those like diskgear who wondered for a while why the fis does not publish the names of its ad panel members. the weird twist here though is the norwegian antidoping tsar whining about....the fis secrecy :lol: where was this anti-secrecy agent when fis - also in total secret - decided to acquit sundby :Question:

so if the judgment went in favour of his compatriot, the antidoper huncho WASN'T concerned. when his compatriot got in trouble, he blasts fis secrecy.

a bigger hypocrisy from the one who supposed to uphold impartiality due to the very nature of his job is difficult to imagine

http://www.vg.no/sport/langrenn/antidoping-norge-sjef-angriper-fis-hemmelighold-rundt-johaug-anke/a/23951438/



My guess is that her suspension will be shortened and she'll be able to race when the season starts in November.
BullsFan22
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22 Aug 2017 09:59

18 months it is and out goes poor Therese from the Olympics. I think they are still generous for Therese, but on the other hand - in terms of competitions - 18 and 24 months does not play much difference.

Waiting for Tore Bear to come and tell us the whole integrity of the world's best antidoping assosiation has been violently compromised.
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22 Aug 2017 10:23

nothing official on the cas site yet :confused:

it would be interesting to read the original reasoning and where/how wada might have been involved in its own rule interpretation. i am particularly curious, since wada did NOT join the official fis appeal...

whatever. i cheer not the punishment but the lack of her obnoxious screaming we will be relieved from at the olympics.
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22 Aug 2017 10:35

Agree that they were very generous to Johaug. Here's the CAS statement: http://www.tas-cas.org/fileadmin/user_upload/Media_Release_5015.pdf

Apparently the sentence is given for negligence for which the appropriate ineligibility range is 12-24 months as opposed to having intentionally used the steroid which would yield 24-28 months.
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Re:

22 Aug 2017 10:35

python wrote:nothing official on the cas site yet :confused:

it would be interesting to read the original reasoning and where/how wada might have been involved in its own rule interpretation. i am particularly curious, since wada did NOT join the official fis appeal...

whatever. i cheer not the punishment but the lack of her obnoxious screaming we will be relieved from at the olympics.


Some CAS comments in Aftenposten at least, though in Norwegian. Translator works OK.

https://www.aftenposten.no/100Sport/vintersport/langrenn/Her-er-dommen-Therese-Johaug-mister-OL-240392b.html
bambino
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Re:

22 Aug 2017 10:36

python wrote:nothing official on the cas site yet :confused:

it would be interesting to read the original reasoning and where/how wada might have been involved in its own rule interpretation. i am particularly curious, since wada did NOT join the official fis appeal...

whatever. i cheer not the punishment but the lack of her obnoxious screaming we will be relieved from at the olympics.


At least the Media Release is made available:
http://www.tas-cas.org/en/general-information/news-detail/article/cas-decision-in-the-case-of-therese-johaug.html

Lets hope the full decision is made public soon...
olhell
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22 Aug 2017 10:56

http://www.tas-cas.org/en/general-information/news-detail/article/cas-decision-in-the-case-of-therese-johaug.html

Ms Johaug failed to conduct a basic check of the packaging


Since she went out in the local press just weeks before hand and said she checks everything 3 times then she's lucky not to get a longer sentence.
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Re: Re:

22 Aug 2017 10:57

Not funny when the fork strikes your *** Toreboy? But lashing out against other dopers is ok huh? As long as they are not Norwegians right?

This is priceless. Straight from the fishes head:

Idrettspresident Tom Tvet sier i en kommentar at han syns dommen er streng.

<p>IDRETTSPRESIDENT: Tom Tvedt på pressemøte på Scandic Fornebu i fjor. </p>
IDRETTSPRESIDENT: Tom Tvedt på pressemøte på Scandic Fornebu i fjor.
FOTO: PATRICK DA SILVA SÆTHER, VG
– Det har vært en lang og krevende prosess. Endelig er det satt sluttstrek for den juridiske behandlingen av saken. Resultatet ble en streng dom og et annet utfall enn det Therese selv hadde håpet på, men vi kan ikke annet enn å ta dommen til etterretning, sier idrettspresident Tvedt.

– Det kan være vanskelig å forstå at Thereses bruk av en leppekrem uten prestasjonsfremmende effekt skal få så alvorlige konsekvenser. Men WADAs regelverk er strengt når det gjelder idrettsutøvernes eget ansvar. Nå vil vi bruke tid på å gjennomgå denne saken, både avgjørelsen og prosessen, for å vurdere hvilken lærdom vi kan trekke av dette, avslutter Tvedt.


http://www.vg.no/sport/langrenn/johaug-tatt-i-doping/bjoergen-etter-johaug-dommen-jeg-har-det-vondt/a/24123433/

Ministry of sports in Norway going Kremlin-style. No wait, that was Norway, that was totally in Norway. Looks like we are no better then everybody else we have been pointing finger against.
Last edited by No_Balls on 22 Aug 2017 10:59, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar No_Balls
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Re: Re:

22 Aug 2017 10:58

olhell wrote:
python wrote:nothing official on the cas site yet :confused:

it would be interesting to read the original reasoning and where/how wada might have been involved in its own rule interpretation. i am particularly curious, since wada did NOT join the official fis appeal...

whatever. i cheer not the punishment but the lack of her obnoxious screaming we will be relieved from at the olympics.


At least the Media Release is made available:
http://www.tas-cas.org/en/general-information/news-detail/article/cas-decision-in-the-case-of-therese-johaug.html

Lets hope the full decision is made public soon...

bambino wrote:
python wrote:nothing official on the cas site yet :confused:

it would be interesting to read the original reasoning and where/how wada might have been involved in its own rule interpretation. i am particularly curious, since wada did NOT join the official fis appeal...

whatever. i cheer not the punishment but the lack of her obnoxious screaming we will be relieved from at the olympics.


Some CAS comments in Aftenposten at least, though in Norwegian. Translator works OK.

https://www.aftenposten.no/100Sport/vintersport/langrenn/Her-er-dommen-Therese-Johaug-mister-OL-240392b.html

thanks guys !
reading the summary, i suspect the full ruling may never be made public since iirc, normally, the cas news summary would refer to the later ruling if and when it was coming...

i am reading between the lines the decision was unanimous (3 of 3) and the duration might have been a mid point of what the fis officially requested (16 to 20).
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Re: Doping in XC skiing

22 Aug 2017 13:55

I have a question to ToreBear. If CAS would have had exonerated Johaug or had significantly lowered the ban, as I understood was your hope. What impact would that have had on future antidoping work?

I can easily picture Russian, Chines and eastern European meds taking the fall when athletes get caught. Or?
Discgear
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Re: Re:

22 Aug 2017 15:15

python wrote:thanks guys !
reading the summary, i suspect the full ruling may never be made public since iirc, normally, the cas news summary would refer to the later ruling if and when it was coming...

i am reading between the lines the decision was unanimous (3 of 3) and the duration might have been a mid point of what the fis officially requested (16 to 20).


Full ruling is published. Start reading guys!
http://www.tas-cas.org/fileadmin/user_upload/Award_5015_internet.pdf
olhell
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22 Aug 2017 15:43

^^
yep, just was logging in to post the rulling link I saw in the vg article...reading it now. it does look though as there were no diverging arbitrators. as if there was one, an opinion as to why would typically be provided at the end of a ruling.
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