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Russian Insider Says State-Run Doping Fueled Olympic Gold

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Re:

28 Nov 2017 23:04

Robert5091 wrote:It's all the whistleblowers fault!
http://www.bbc.com/sport/42150486
A Russian inquiry has concluded the whistleblower who reported an alleged state doping cover-up at the Sochi Olympics personally supplied the drugs.

The government investigations unit says athletes did not know Grigory Rodchenkov had given them substances.
...
Russia has always maintained that Rodchenkov, and not the state, was involved. The country's president Vladimir Putin said the allegations stemmed from "one man with a scandalous reputation".
...
In an interview with the New York Times in May 2016, Rodchenkov said doping athletes was part of his job and his laboratory would have stopped receiving funding if he had not done it.


Well it's true that Rodchenkov has a 'scandalous reputation.' He even admitted to fraud, attempted suicide and blamed his wife. If he was so anti-doping, he would have stopped long before 2015. Exchanging clean samples with dirty samples or vice versa is incredibly scoundrel-like in itself. Interesting how cross country ski athletes like Legkov have their samples go straight to Lausanne, Cologne, Dresden and other accredited labs and no irregularities are found. Also read this from Rasmus Damsgaard (the initiator of the blood passport program):

https://www.aftenposten.no/100Sport/vintersport/FIS-lege-kritisk-til-McLaren-rapporten--Antidopingarbeidet-er-pa-vei-i-feil-retning-245801b.html

And in English:

https://www.rt.com/sport/410742-mclaren-report-evidence-rasmus-damsgaards/

If they are consistently tracked, their normal numbers are documented, wouldn't something that's out of the ordinary immediately give red lights??? And where was WADA, FIS, IOC officials at the testing? At every world cup there are not only domestic anti-doping agents, but there have to be international anti-doping agents as well, to help and to oversee and make sure everything is going smoothly. The urine samples go Switzerland, not Moscow, but it seems like the NYT and other 'sources' don't care about that. It's Russia Russia Russia. All.The.Time.
BullsFan22
Senior Member
 
Posts: 3,034
Joined: 22 Jun 2010 21:19

Re: Re:

29 Nov 2017 13:37

BullsFan22 wrote:
Robert5091 wrote:It's all the whistleblowers fault!
http://www.bbc.com/sport/42150486
A Russian inquiry has concluded the whistleblower who reported an alleged state doping cover-up at the Sochi Olympics personally supplied the drugs.

The government investigations unit says athletes did not know Grigory Rodchenkov had given them substances.
...
Russia has always maintained that Rodchenkov, and not the state, was involved. The country's president Vladimir Putin said the allegations stemmed from "one man with a scandalous reputation".
...
In an interview with the New York Times in May 2016, Rodchenkov said doping athletes was part of his job and his laboratory would have stopped receiving funding if he had not done it.


Well it's true that Rodchenkov has a 'scandalous reputation.' He even admitted to fraud, attempted suicide and blamed his wife. If he was so anti-doping, he would have stopped long before 2015. Exchanging clean samples with dirty samples or vice versa is incredibly scoundrel-like in itself. Interesting how cross country ski athletes like Legkov have their samples go straight to Lausanne, Cologne, Dresden and other accredited labs and no irregularities are found. Also read this from Rasmus Damsgaard (the initiator of the blood passport program):

https://www.aftenposten.no/100Sport/vintersport/FIS-lege-kritisk-til-McLaren-rapporten--Antidopingarbeidet-er-pa-vei-i-feil-retning-245801b.html

And in English:

https://www.rt.com/sport/410742-mclaren-report-evidence-rasmus-damsgaards/

If they are consistently tracked, their normal numbers are documented, wouldn't something that's out of the ordinary immediately give red lights??? And where was WADA, FIS, IOC officials at the testing? At every world cup there are not only domestic anti-doping agents, but there have to be international anti-doping agents as well, to help and to oversee and make sure everything is going smoothly. The urine samples go Switzerland, not Moscow, but it seems like the NYT and other 'sources' don't care about that. It's Russia Russia Russia. All.The.Time.


What does his attempted suicide have to do with this? Shameful.
wansteadimp
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05 Dec 2017 18:54

Finally, the IOC does their job correctly...

Although, Russian athletes can still compete independently.

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/olympics/winter/ioc-russia-doping-1.4432781
Darryl Webster wrote:
"Nothing seems to blind peeps as much as patriotism does it!"
User avatar Irondan
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Re:

05 Dec 2017 19:34

Irondan wrote:Finally, the IOC does their job correctly...

Although, Russian athletes can still compete independently.

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/olympics/winter/ioc-russia-doping-1.4432781



I hate to disagree with you, Irondan, because we seem to agree on other topics here on the forum, but I respectfully disagree. I know I'll get slammed for this, but the IOC made a mistake. They are bending over for their overlords. If I were the Russians, I'd boycott the games, completely. I follow XC skiing a lot, and have been for many years, and there are XC athletes that competed in Sochi and are part of a new generation of athletes that have not been implicated in anything, are tested REGULARLY by WADA, FIS, IOC, exclusively outside of Russia that aren't allowed to go to Korea, simply because of 'guilt by association.' That, INMHO is completely unnecessary and it punishes MANY innocent athletes. I don't think I'll comment on the whole Rodchenkov/McLaren saga, because I commented on it many times over the past year or so, and we'll just keep going in circles, but as far as the decision is concerned, it's wrong and completely irrational. But I knew it was coming. The current political climate was just ripe for it.
BullsFan22
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Re: Re:

05 Dec 2017 20:49

BullsFan22 wrote:
Irondan wrote:Finally, the IOC does their job correctly...

Although, Russian athletes can still compete independently.

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/olympics/winter/ioc-russia-doping-1.4432781



I hate to disagree with you, Irondan, because we seem to agree on other topics here on the forum, but I respectfully disagree. I know I'll get slammed for this, but the IOC made a mistake. They are bending over for their overlords. If I were the Russians, I'd boycott the games, completely. I follow XC skiing a lot, and have been for many years, and there are XC athletes that competed in Sochi and are part of a new generation of athletes that have not been implicated in anything, are tested REGULARLY by WADA, FIS, IOC, exclusively outside of Russia that aren't allowed to go to Korea, simply because of 'guilt by association.' That, INMHO is completely unnecessary and it punishes MANY innocent athletes. I don't think I'll comment on the whole Rodchenkov/McLaren saga, because I commented on it many times over the past year or so, and we'll just keep going in circles, but as far as the decision is concerned, it's wrong and completely irrational. But I knew it was coming. The current political climate was just ripe for it.
i do understand the Bulls position and, mostly, agree with the sentiment except the rigid connection to 'bending over to the overlords'. but about that later ...

my position on the entire 'russia state doping' saga is influenced by the fact that i PERSONALLY corresponded with the main - and only - direct source of all the anti-russia evidence. we corresponded on some scientific doping matters. it goes back a decade, well before the current explosion. we exchanged dozens emails and both fully knew each others real names and credentials.. i had firmly arrived a decade ago at the opinion the guy i was in touch with as a scientist was grossly overdoing (by volunteering a lot of dirt i never cared about nor asked for)...i cant say more...

to get back to earth, the entire matter is much less anti-doping than it is political. no, i'm not white washing the the notorious russian doping culture, but i'm lucid about the ioc -and the entire international sports - deeply and inherently political core. it is propagated by mostly old, sometimes very old men, occupying the comfortable well-paid 'olympic' positions for decades and being sharp to 'hearing' the current political trends. that's were bullsfan is 100% correct. where i may disagree is that these olympic politicians are total tools. they aren't, b/c of the relative independence of the ioc and its huge international swing.

my preliminary read of their decision today is - they tried to be balanced. no russian federation-specific team was restricted, nor the russians were disallowed to call their athletes as representing russia (not withstanding the national symbolical restrictions). also, the 40 page decision (yet to be published in full) allegedly set a path for a total reset if the russians dont get mired in any new doping scandals in korea...

my guess is they will take the humiliating conditions which to a large extent offered a practical way to compete.
DJPbaltimore:'John Kerry is an honorable person and would not call out the Russians if there was not evidence', 'the 2 of you are russia stooges'
in foreign policy there are no eternal friendships or eternal enemies, only eternal interests
User avatar python
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Re: Re:

05 Dec 2017 23:04

python wrote:
BullsFan22 wrote:
Irondan wrote:Finally, the IOC does their job correctly...

Although, Russian athletes can still compete independently.

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/olympics/winter/ioc-russia-doping-1.4432781



I hate to disagree with you, Irondan, because we seem to agree on other topics here on the forum, but I respectfully disagree. I know I'll get slammed for this, but the IOC made a mistake. They are bending over for their overlords. If I were the Russians, I'd boycott the games, completely. I follow XC skiing a lot, and have been for many years, and there are XC athletes that competed in Sochi and are part of a new generation of athletes that have not been implicated in anything, are tested REGULARLY by WADA, FIS, IOC, exclusively outside of Russia that aren't allowed to go to Korea, simply because of 'guilt by association.' That, INMHO is completely unnecessary and it punishes MANY innocent athletes. I don't think I'll comment on the whole Rodchenkov/McLaren saga, because I commented on it many times over the past year or so, and we'll just keep going in circles, but as far as the decision is concerned, it's wrong and completely irrational. But I knew it was coming. The current political climate was just ripe for it.
i do understand the Bulls position and, mostly, agree with the sentiment except the rigid connection to 'bending over to the overlords'. but about that later ...

my position on the entire 'russia state doping' saga is influenced by the fact that i PERSONALLY corresponded with the main - and only - direct source of all the anti-russia evidence. we corresponded on some scientific doping matters. it goes back a decade, well before the current explosion. we exchanged dozens emails and both fully knew each others real names and credentials.. i had firmly arrived a decade ago at the opinion the guy i was in touch with as a scientist was grossly overdoing (by volunteering a lot of dirt i never cared about nor asked for)...i cant say more...

to get back to earth, the entire matter is much less anti-doping than it is political. no, i'm not white washing the the notorious russian doping culture, but i'm lucid about the ioc -and the entire international sports - deeply and inherently political core. it is propagated by mostly old, sometimes very old men, occupying the comfortable well-paid 'olympic' positions for decades and being sharp to 'hearing' the current political trends. that's were bullsfan is 100% correct. where i may disagree is that these olympic politicians are total tools. they aren't, b/c of the relative independence of the ioc and its huge international swing.

my preliminary read of their decision today is - they tried to be balanced. no russian federation-specific team was restricted, nor the russians were disallowed to call their athletes as representing russia (not withstanding the national symbolical restrictions). also, the 40 page decision (yet to be published in full) allegedly set a path for a total reset if the russians dont get mired in any new doping scandals in korea...

my guess is they will take the humiliating conditions which to a large extent offered a practical way to compete.



Well said Python. You most definitely know more about the particulars in the Rodchenkov case and I'll steer away from that whenever I can, because it simply boggles my mind the things he's saying or said. Nobody with a clean conscious can say what he's been saying.

One of the things I really wrote here, since the first rumblings started appearing, was the fact that a lot of these athletes are tested regularly by independent, valid (ok'd under WADA supervision) labs in continental Europe. That was one of the main issues two years ago-athletes being tested by valid labs outside of Russia. Many of these athletes trained outside of Russia, in places like Italy, Switzerland, Germany, Norway, Austria....and you know that they are tested often because they are Russian and all eyes are on them. Just look at these latest figures from FIS:

http://www.fis-ski.com/news-multimedia/news/article=pre-games-anti-doping-taskforce-and-monthly-testing-figures.html

http://www.fis-ski.com/mm/Document/documentlibrary/Medical/10/92/69/FISAnti-DopingTestingFiguresSeptOct2017_Neutral.pdf

They are CLEARLY tested. 136 tests in Sept/Oct. The next nation is at 63, so obviously more than double less. The US is at 10, granted the US doesn't have as many competitors, but that's still very, very low for two full months of testing. Likewise Canada, France, Finland, etc.

The guy that won the 50km in Sochi, Legkov, was tested prior to the olympics, after the olympics....nothing was found on him. He won plenty of races before winning in Sochi. He only had two wins in Russia, in 2007 and 2011. Long before Rodchenkov's allegations. So Legkov could win without Rodchenkov's 'cocktails' before, but he needed them in Sochi?? That is absurd. His 2013/2014 season results show that he was a man on form and was competitive in the races he took part in before and after the Olympics. And his longtime training partner, Chernousov, was not implicated by Rodchenkov, at all. Both of them trained outside of the national team since 2014 and both did the same races, or almost all the same races. He later went to Switzerland and married a Swiss biathlete. Maybe that's why he isn't implicated.

Not to get into all the specific cases, but I second pretty much everything Python said.
BullsFan22
Senior Member
 
Posts: 3,034
Joined: 22 Jun 2010 21:19

Re: Re:

06 Dec 2017 08:51

BullsFan22 wrote:
python wrote:
BullsFan22 wrote:
Irondan wrote:Finally, the IOC does their job correctly...

Although, Russian athletes can still compete independently.

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/olympics/winter/ioc-russia-doping-1.4432781



I hate to disagree with you, Irondan, because we seem to agree on other topics here on the forum, but I respectfully disagree. I know I'll get slammed for this, but the IOC made a mistake. They are bending over for their overlords. If I were the Russians, I'd boycott the games, completely. I follow XC skiing a lot, and have been for many years, and there are XC athletes that competed in Sochi and are part of a new generation of athletes that have not been implicated in anything, are tested REGULARLY by WADA, FIS, IOC, exclusively outside of Russia that aren't allowed to go to Korea, simply because of 'guilt by association.' That, INMHO is completely unnecessary and it punishes MANY innocent athletes. I don't think I'll comment on the whole Rodchenkov/McLaren saga, because I commented on it many times over the past year or so, and we'll just keep going in circles, but as far as the decision is concerned, it's wrong and completely irrational. But I knew it was coming. The current political climate was just ripe for it.
i do understand the Bulls position and, mostly, agree with the sentiment except the rigid connection to 'bending over to the overlords'. but about that later ...

my position on the entire 'russia state doping' saga is influenced by the fact that i PERSONALLY corresponded with the main - and only - direct source of all the anti-russia evidence. we corresponded on some scientific doping matters. it goes back a decade, well before the current explosion. we exchanged dozens emails and both fully knew each others real names and credentials.. i had firmly arrived a decade ago at the opinion the guy i was in touch with as a scientist was grossly overdoing (by volunteering a lot of dirt i never cared about nor asked for)...i cant say more...

to get back to earth, the entire matter is much less anti-doping than it is political. no, i'm not white washing the the notorious russian doping culture, but i'm lucid about the ioc -and the entire international sports - deeply and inherently political core. it is propagated by mostly old, sometimes very old men, occupying the comfortable well-paid 'olympic' positions for decades and being sharp to 'hearing' the current political trends. that's were bullsfan is 100% correct. where i may disagree is that these olympic politicians are total tools. they aren't, b/c of the relative independence of the ioc and its huge international swing.

my preliminary read of their decision today is - they tried to be balanced. no russian federation-specific team was restricted, nor the russians were disallowed to call their athletes as representing russia (not withstanding the national symbolical restrictions). also, the 40 page decision (yet to be published in full) allegedly set a path for a total reset if the russians dont get mired in any new doping scandals in korea...

my guess is they will take the humiliating conditions which to a large extent offered a practical way to compete.



Well said Python. You most definitely know more about the particulars in the Rodchenkov case and I'll steer away from that whenever I can, because it simply boggles my mind the things he's saying or said. Nobody with a clean conscious can say what he's been saying.

One of the things I really wrote here, since the first rumblings started appearing, was the fact that a lot of these athletes are tested regularly by independent, valid (ok'd under WADA supervision) labs in continental Europe. That was one of the main issues two years ago-athletes being tested by valid labs outside of Russia. Many of these athletes trained outside of Russia, in places like Italy, Switzerland, Germany, Norway, Austria....and you know that they are tested often because they are Russian and all eyes are on them. Just look at these latest figures from FIS:

http://www.fis-ski.com/news-multimedia/news/article=pre-games-anti-doping-taskforce-and-monthly-testing-figures.html

http://www.fis-ski.com/mm/Document/documentlibrary/Medical/10/92/69/FISAnti-DopingTestingFiguresSeptOct2017_Neutral.pdf

They are CLEARLY tested. 136 tests in Sept/Oct. The next nation is at 63, so obviously more than double less. The US is at 10, granted the US doesn't have as many competitors, but that's still very, very low for two full months of testing. Likewise Canada, France, Finland, etc.

The guy that won the 50km in Sochi, Legkov, was tested prior to the olympics, after the olympics....nothing was found on him. He won plenty of races before winning in Sochi. He only had two wins in Russia, in 2007 and 2011. Long before Rodchenkov's allegations. So Legkov could win without Rodchenkov's 'cocktails' before, but he needed them in Sochi?? That is absurd. His 2013/2014 season results show that he was a man on form and was competitive in the races he took part in before and after the Olympics. And his longtime training partner, Chernousov, was not implicated by Rodchenkov, at all. Both of them trained outside of the national team since 2014 and both did the same races, or almost all the same races. He later went to Switzerland and married a Swiss biathlete. Maybe that's why he isn't implicated.

Not to get into all the specific cases, but I second pretty much everything Python said.


I'm with you guys, lot of politics involved here and I do not like the fact that the IOC decision indeed will punish also lot of innocent athletes.

The problem here is to define who actually is innocent and who not. I don't think anyone (even Bullsfan) can suggest there were nothing suspicious going on in the years before and during Sotshi. There are too many indications that something was wrong. Big time. But who are the athletes that are purely innocent? Very hard to define.

The fact that athlete gets tested in different laboratories than Rusada is not really a proof of anything as they had (according to man himself) concultant with exactly the same testing facilities in use than the other laboratories, who told them how to not get caught.

The issue here is word against word. Rodchenkov gives the officials whole lot of details that seem too much to be invented on his own head. And he does not defend himself, but honestly admits he was one of the master brains behind the fraud, thus making sure he will never be able to exercise his own profession again. Admitting guilty. There are some other "evidence" found such as scratches in the bottles. Russia in the mean time just denies with the words of politicians, but does not even try to proove Rodchenkov's claims wrong by suppliyng evidence. At the same time Russian athletes are caught in re-tests. It is all too easy at the moment for the politicians to make their own judgement. And actually lot of officials in other countries not part of the actual IOC decision making thinks the latest ruling of IOC was spot-on and correct.
bambino
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Re:

06 Dec 2017 11:58

Irondan wrote:Finally, the IOC does their job correctly...

Although, Russian athletes can still compete independently.

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/olympics/winter/ioc-russia-doping-1.4432781


If they did their job properly the Russians wouldn't be allowed to compete at all.
movingtarget
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Re: Russian Insider Says State-Run Doping Fueled Olympic Gol

06 Dec 2017 15:09

Got to love the clinic, this is where nobody from Team Sky has tested positive (yet) but according to common wisdom in here the whole 'dirty' team should be banned for the good of the sport....but good old mother Russia has a long and rich history of doping, corruption, sample tampering etc and there's a load of butt hurt posters claiming that Russia's treatment is unfair....lol.

Does this go back to the whole good dopers and bad dopers thing which i don't seem to share with others in here and probably need explaining to me again for comedy effect....please explain why Indurain, Pantani, Ullrich and Riis...dominant in the EPO/rocket fuel era are ok and still have their TdF titles but Armstrong is the boogeyman?...could it be that he took a European sport and a European method of cheating and ended up doing it better than the euro riders in the end!?

Russia has been up to this for decades, old state files show it, old testimonies from damaged practically transgendered athletes who unwittingly took whatever they were ordered to take etc, the Soichi lab, the Rodchenkov documentary etc etc...frankly they should be grateful not to have had the Armstrong treatment and been banned from all sport under the WADA code for life.

The clinic likes to say that a doping culture never goes away, that TdF riders will always dope...if that's true what does that say about Russia and the former East Germany?...they physically ruined kids looking for the next gold medal, when they found one with potential they fed them PEDS like cattle and didn't give a **** when they started changing sex in front of the international communities eyes...Armstrong gets the same EPO and transfusions half the peleton were using and ended a some careers (Landis, Bassons etc) by acting like a prick and he's suddenly the worst thing to have ever happened in doping!.....people have short memories, and Germany and Russia are complicit in more crimes against sport than Armstrong would've ever been able to achieve.
deviant
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06 Dec 2017 16:02

said it before but the Russians must have had a poor cheating regime if they were not the top medal nation while having this supposed great doping programme. It's the same argument as everyone who said that Lance Armstrong must be doping if the 2nd 3rd and 4th placed tour riders all got caught doping. They were proven correct in the end. I suspect the USA and Great Britain of having a doping programme. The Yanks are the Kings of doping and the Brits have improved out of sight lately.

and lets be honest, it's pay back for the computer hacking and it's a lovely bonus for all other nations knowing they will win more medals with Russia not there. It's all politics as usual.

Those here saying it's a good job well done banning Russia are hypocrites. Great Britain is clearly up to no good for starters with their massive improvements in so short a time.
Craigee
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06 Dec 2017 16:07

Sadly it should never have to this, except for at best the incompetence of IOC/WADA, or at worst these organisations turning a blind eye - After all they had strong evidence from journalist Nick Harris in July 2013 of institutionalised doping in Russia - Well if these organisations were interested in dealing with anti-doping they would have acted on this information and possibly there would be no Sochi 2014.
yaco
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Re:

06 Dec 2017 16:14

Craigee wrote:said it before but the Russians must have had a poor cheating regime if they were not the top medal nation while having this supposed great doping programme. It's the same argument as everyone who said that Lance Armstrong must be doping if the 2nd 3rd and 4th placed tour riders all got caught doping. They were proven correct in the end. I suspect the USA and Great Britain of having a doping programme. The Yanks are the Kings of doping and the Brits have improved out of sight lately.

and lets be honest, it's pay back for the computer hacking and it's a lovely bonus for all other nations knowing they will win more medals with Russia not there. It's all politics as usual.

Those here saying it's a good job well done banning Russia are hypocrites. Great Britain is clearly up to no good for starters with their massive improvements in so short a time.

Can you please back up what you state in your first sentence about Sky.
User avatar veganrob
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Re: Russian Insider Says State-Run Doping Fueled Olympic Gol

06 Dec 2017 17:45

deviant wrote:Got to love the clinic, this is where nobody from Team Sky has tested positive (yet) but according to common wisdom in here the whole 'dirty' team should be banned for the good of the sport....but good old mother Russia has a long and rich history of doping, corruption, sample tampering etc and there's a load of butt hurt posters claiming that Russia's treatment is unfair....lol.

Does this go back to the whole good dopers and bad dopers thing which i don't seem to share with others in here and probably need explaining to me again for comedy effect....please explain why Indurain, Pantani, Ullrich and Riis...dominant in the EPO/rocket fuel era are ok and still have their TdF titles but Armstrong is the boogeyman?...could it be that he took a European sport and a European method of cheating and ended up doing it better than the euro riders in the end!?

Russia has been up to this for decades, old state files show it, old testimonies from damaged practically transgendered athletes who unwittingly took whatever they were ordered to take etc, the Soichi lab, the Rodchenkov documentary etc etc...frankly they should be grateful not to have had the Armstrong treatment and been banned from all sport under the WADA code for life.

The clinic likes to say that a doping culture never goes away, that TdF riders will always dope...if that's true what does that say about Russia and the former East Germany?...they physically ruined kids looking for the next gold medal, when they found one with potential they fed them PEDS like cattle and didn't give a **** when they started changing sex in front of the international communities eyes...Armstrong gets the same EPO and transfusions half the peleton were using and ended a some careers (Landis, Bassons etc) by acting like a prick and he's suddenly the worst thing to have ever happened in doping!.....people have short memories, and Germany and Russia are complicit in more crimes against sport than Armstrong would've ever been able to achieve.


I completely agree. This place always quick to point the finger elsewhere but ignore the bleeding obvious. Yes of course Western Athletes dope but that completely misses the point. I notice Fancybears has nothing to say on these "revelations". Fancy that! Perhaps Sky should be prepared for another deflection it was just after Russian athletes were banned at London in 2012 that Wiggins TEU got leaked.
Cookster15
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Re: Russian Insider Says State-Run Doping Fueled Olympic Gol

06 Dec 2017 18:28

deviant wrote:Got to love the clinic, this is where nobody from Team Sky has tested positive (yet) but according to common wisdom in here the whole 'dirty' team should be banned for the good of the sport....but good old mother Russia has a long and rich history of doping, corruption, sample tampering etc and there's a load of butt hurt posters claiming that Russia's treatment is unfair....lol.

Does this go back to the whole good dopers and bad dopers thing which i don't seem to share with others in here and probably need explaining to me again for comedy effect....please explain why Indurain, Pantani, Ullrich and Riis...dominant in the EPO/rocket fuel era are ok and still have their TdF titles but Armstrong is the boogeyman?...could it be that he took a European sport and a European method of cheating and ended up doing it better than the euro riders in the end!?

Russia has been up to this for decades, old state files show it, old testimonies from damaged practically transgendered athletes who unwittingly took whatever they were ordered to take etc, the Soichi lab, the Rodchenkov documentary etc etc...frankly they should be grateful not to have had the Armstrong treatment and been banned from all sport under the WADA code for life.

The clinic likes to say that a doping culture never goes away, that TdF riders will always dope...if that's true what does that say about Russia and the former East Germany?...they physically ruined kids looking for the next gold medal, when they found one with potential they fed them PEDS like cattle and didn't give a **** when they started changing sex in front of the international communities eyes...Armstrong gets the same EPO and transfusions half the peleton were using and ended a some careers (Landis, Bassons etc) by acting like a prick and he's suddenly the worst thing to have ever happened in doping!.....people have short memories, and Germany and Russia are complicit in more crimes against sport than Armstrong would've ever been able to achieve.



Got to love this as well:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/exum-claims-large-scale-cover-up-of-doping-positives/

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/04/17/sports/olympics-anti-doping-official-says-us-covered-up.html

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2003/apr/24/athletics.duncanmackay

http://www.playthegame.org/news/news-articles/2003/q-a-with-dr-wade-exum/

https://www.thenational.ae/sport/rio-2016-russia-by-no-means-the-only-doping-offenders-at-the-olympics-past-or-present-1.163052

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/othersports/athletics/2400198/Athletics-Now-drink-tarnishes-Lewis-legend.html

http://abcnews.go.com/Sports/story?id=100883

https://www.espn.com/page2/tvlistings/show17transcript.html


So how come no sanctions or bans were leveled against the USOC after those news came out? Why did Carl Lewis, after failing 3(!!!) doping tests in the summer of 1988 alone, get to compete and steal medals? You can spool about the Russians all you want, and I am sure you can call this 'whataboutism' but I call it double standards and hypocrisy from the IOC. Even Richard Pound acknowledged that the Americans were doping in an interview prior to the 2000 Sydney Olympics, but did nothing to investigate and give out suspensions and sanctions. Meanwhile one Russian moves to the US, tells the authorities all they want to hear and the IOC bans Russia.
BullsFan22
Senior Member
 
Posts: 3,034
Joined: 22 Jun 2010 21:19

Re: Russian Insider Says State-Run Doping Fueled Olympic Gol

06 Dec 2017 18:45

BullsFan22 wrote:
deviant wrote:Got to love the clinic, this is where nobody from Team Sky has tested positive (yet) but according to common wisdom in here the whole 'dirty' team should be banned for the good of the sport....but good old mother Russia has a long and rich history of doping, corruption, sample tampering etc and there's a load of butt hurt posters claiming that Russia's treatment is unfair....lol.

Does this go back to the whole good dopers and bad dopers thing which i don't seem to share with others in here and probably need explaining to me again for comedy effect....please explain why Indurain, Pantani, Ullrich and Riis...dominant in the EPO/rocket fuel era are ok and still have their TdF titles but Armstrong is the boogeyman?...could it be that he took a European sport and a European method of cheating and ended up doing it better than the euro riders in the end!?

Russia has been up to this for decades, old state files show it, old testimonies from damaged practically transgendered athletes who unwittingly took whatever they were ordered to take etc, the Soichi lab, the Rodchenkov documentary etc etc...frankly they should be grateful not to have had the Armstrong treatment and been banned from all sport under the WADA code for life.

The clinic likes to say that a doping culture never goes away, that TdF riders will always dope...if that's true what does that say about Russia and the former East Germany?...they physically ruined kids looking for the next gold medal, when they found one with potential they fed them PEDS like cattle and didn't give a **** when they started changing sex in front of the international communities eyes...Armstrong gets the same EPO and transfusions half the peleton were using and ended a some careers (Landis, Bassons etc) by acting like a prick and he's suddenly the worst thing to have ever happened in doping!.....people have short memories, and Germany and Russia are complicit in more crimes against sport than Armstrong would've ever been able to achieve.



Got to love this as well:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/exum-claims-large-scale-cover-up-of-doping-positives/

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/04/17/sports/olympics-anti-doping-official-says-us-covered-up.html

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2003/apr/24/athletics.duncanmackay

http://www.playthegame.org/news/news-articles/2003/q-a-with-dr-wade-exum/

https://www.thenational.ae/sport/rio-2016-russia-by-no-means-the-only-doping-offenders-at-the-olympics-past-or-present-1.163052

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/othersports/athletics/2400198/Athletics-Now-drink-tarnishes-Lewis-legend.html

http://abcnews.go.com/Sports/story?id=100883

https://www.espn.com/page2/tvlistings/show17transcript.html


So how come no sanctions or bans were leveled against the USOC after those news came out? Why did Carl Lewis, after failing 3(!!!) doping tests in the summer of 1988 alone, get to compete and steal medals? You can spool about the Russians all you want, and I am sure you can call this 'whataboutism' but I call it double standards and hypocrisy from the IOC. Even Richard Pound acknowledged that the Americans were doping in an interview prior to the 2000 Sydney Olympics, but did nothing to investigate and give out suspensions and sanctions. Meanwhile one Russian moves to the US, tells the authorities all they want to hear and the IOC bans Russia.

I completely agree about American doping (or Australian doping for that matter). But can we please separate the two? Open a new thread for American doping if there isn't one don't let Russia off the hook here. If I was a Russian State sponsored doper I'd be pleased to see people point the finger back at the Americans.
Cookster15
Member
 
Posts: 1,051
Joined: 14 May 2011 19:25

Re: Russian Insider Says State-Run Doping Fueled Olympic Gol

06 Dec 2017 19:03

BullsFan22 wrote:

Got to love this as well:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/exum-claims-large-scale-cover-up-of-doping-positives/

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/04/17/sports/olympics-anti-doping-official-says-us-covered-up.html

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2003/apr/24/athletics.duncanmackay

http://www.playthegame.org/news/news-articles/2003/q-a-with-dr-wade-exum/

https://www.thenational.ae/sport/rio-2016-russia-by-no-means-the-only-doping-offenders-at-the-olympics-past-or-present-1.163052

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/othersports/athletics/2400198/Athletics-Now-drink-tarnishes-Lewis-legend.html

http://abcnews.go.com/Sports/story?id=100883

https://www.espn.com/page2/tvlistings/show17transcript.html


So how come no sanctions or bans were leveled against the USOC after those news came out? Why did Carl Lewis, after failing 3(!!!) doping tests in the summer of 1988 alone, get to compete and steal medals? You can spool about the Russians all you want, and I am sure you can call this 'whataboutism' but I call it double standards and hypocrisy from the IOC. Even Richard Pound acknowledged that the Americans were doping in an interview prior to the 2000 Sydney Olympics, but did nothing to investigate and give out suspensions and sanctions. Meanwhile one Russian moves to the US, tells the authorities all they want to hear and the IOC bans Russia.
Do you suppose that this whole ban hinges on one whistleblower? More like one thread in a tapestry IMO. I also echo what Cookster15 posted above.
Donald Trump: “If you go back to the Civil War, it was the Republicans who did the thing.”
djpbaltimore
Senior Member
 
Posts: 3,200
Joined: 09 Jun 2014 13:41
Location: Baltimore, MD

06 Dec 2017 19:14

Think Bulls Fan argument is how selective Anti-Doping Agencies are when it comes to investigating doping, and how it's challenging to have faith in these organisations - There is more than enough evidence to suggest Sochi 2014 may not have occurred if the IOC/WADA had investigated allegations from journalist Nick Harris in July 2013.
yaco
Senior Member
 
Posts: 4,129
Joined: 20 Jun 2015 17:57

Re:

06 Dec 2017 19:41

yaco wrote:Think Bulls Fan argument is how selective Anti-Doping Agencies are when it comes to investigating doping, and how it's challenging to have faith in these organisations - There is more than enough evidence to suggest Sochi 2014 may not have occurred if the IOC/WADA had investigated allegations from journalist Nick Harris in July 2013.
I would agree with that part of it. However, I disagree with the implicit minimizing of the severity of what Russia actually did to reach this point.
Donald Trump: “If you go back to the Civil War, it was the Republicans who did the thing.”
djpbaltimore
Senior Member
 
Posts: 3,200
Joined: 09 Jun 2014 13:41
Location: Baltimore, MD

Re: Russian Insider Says State-Run Doping Fueled Olympic Gol

06 Dec 2017 20:59

Cookster15 wrote:
BullsFan22 wrote:
deviant wrote:Got to love the clinic, this is where nobody from Team Sky has tested positive (yet) but according to common wisdom in here the whole 'dirty' team should be banned for the good of the sport....but good old mother Russia has a long and rich history of doping, corruption, sample tampering etc and there's a load of butt hurt posters claiming that Russia's treatment is unfair....lol.

Does this go back to the whole good dopers and bad dopers thing which i don't seem to share with others in here and probably need explaining to me again for comedy effect....please explain why Indurain, Pantani, Ullrich and Riis...dominant in the EPO/rocket fuel era are ok and still have their TdF titles but Armstrong is the boogeyman?...could it be that he took a European sport and a European method of cheating and ended up doing it better than the euro riders in the end!?

Russia has been up to this for decades, old state files show it, old testimonies from damaged practically transgendered athletes who unwittingly took whatever they were ordered to take etc, the Soichi lab, the Rodchenkov documentary etc etc...frankly they should be grateful not to have had the Armstrong treatment and been banned from all sport under the WADA code for life.

The clinic likes to say that a doping culture never goes away, that TdF riders will always dope...if that's true what does that say about Russia and the former East Germany?...they physically ruined kids looking for the next gold medal, when they found one with potential they fed them PEDS like cattle and didn't give a **** when they started changing sex in front of the international communities eyes...Armstrong gets the same EPO and transfusions half the peleton were using and ended a some careers (Landis, Bassons etc) by acting like a prick and he's suddenly the worst thing to have ever happened in doping!.....people have short memories, and Germany and Russia are complicit in more crimes against sport than Armstrong would've ever been able to achieve.



Got to love this as well:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/exum-claims-large-scale-cover-up-of-doping-positives/

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/04/17/sports/olympics-anti-doping-official-says-us-covered-up.html

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2003/apr/24/athletics.duncanmackay

http://www.playthegame.org/news/news-articles/2003/q-a-with-dr-wade-exum/

https://www.thenational.ae/sport/rio-2016-russia-by-no-means-the-only-doping-offenders-at-the-olympics-past-or-present-1.163052

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/othersports/athletics/2400198/Athletics-Now-drink-tarnishes-Lewis-legend.html

http://abcnews.go.com/Sports/story?id=100883

https://www.espn.com/page2/tvlistings/show17transcript.html


So how come no sanctions or bans were leveled against the USOC after those news came out? Why did Carl Lewis, after failing 3(!!!) doping tests in the summer of 1988 alone, get to compete and steal medals? You can spool about the Russians all you want, and I am sure you can call this 'whataboutism' but I call it double standards and hypocrisy from the IOC. Even Richard Pound acknowledged that the Americans were doping in an interview prior to the 2000 Sydney Olympics, but did nothing to investigate and give out suspensions and sanctions. Meanwhile one Russian moves to the US, tells the authorities all they want to hear and the IOC bans Russia.

I completely agree about American doping (or Australian doping for that matter). But can we please separate the two? Open a new thread for American doping if there isn't one don't let Russia off the hook here. If I was a Russian State sponsored doper I'd be pleased to see people point the finger back at the Americans.



Well the IOC confirmed it wasn't 'state sponsored.' Much to everyone's chagrin here, I am sure. And it's a very nice way to hit back at me by beating the same drum over and over and over again. Sorry, I won't bite. I can think for myself. I don't need Travis Tygart or Grigory Rodchenkov or Richard McLaren/Pound to tell me.
BullsFan22
Senior Member
 
Posts: 3,034
Joined: 22 Jun 2010 21:19

06 Dec 2017 22:09

Barring states who have engaged in such broad-spectrum doping policies is an understandable step, although it is fraught with certain issues (for example, nation-switching athletes mean there are Russians who may have been involved in what happened at Sochi who will compete in Pyeongchang while Russians who had nothing to do with it will have to jump through hoops). And because of the scale of what went on, there needed to be some action taken that penalized those responsible, because individual athletes have paid the price for years on end, and while some will have doped of their own volition to be more competitive, to make selections, or whatever, in many of these cases, no matter how complicit they may be in the doping program the athletes themselves are not the ones that initiated it; in the Clinic much is made of how the enablers, the doping doctors and the authority figures involved are never the ones that pay, and this is an important move in that direction, in sanctioning the Russian team as a whole rather than the individuals found to have doped (some of whom have retired, or have been kept from competition for long enough that a ban would be of limited value).

However, at the same time I am not cheerleading the decision. Much of that is for the same reason as CONI didn't reduce Riccardo Riccò's ban by as much as Emanuele Sella's back in the day. CONI felt at the time that while Sella had been open and honest about his supply chain, Riccò had basically given them some names they already knew about in the name of appearing co-operative. The general world out there knows that Russia has problems with doping and has done for years. When there's the news of new doping stories and the only names that come out are Russian or other ex-Soviet state small fry, the response is usually more to roll one's eyes than to congratulate the IOC, WADA or the relevant sporting authority on their strong anti-doping work. "Oh, the Russians still stuck in the old ways," or "oh, the Russians still haven't learned how to hide it." It isn't a potentially unpopular decision across much of the world or potentially dangerous for profitability of the sport like going after, say, Jamaican athletics, and calling out the Russians for doping is pretty low-hanging fruit and some recent moves in anti-doping such as the meldonium fiasco seemed to have been directed at the Russians, and that entire affair obviously only served to further reinforce the stereotype. It's the same reason only the cyclists got named publicly out of Operación Puerto. "There's no danger in the public knowing about the cyclists because everybody already believes cycling is full of dopers." So while the Russian team has engaged in wide-scale sporting fraud, across several sports and their relevant authorities, covering a great many athletes, at the same time I'm not going to go around celebrating like this is a great victory for anti-doping and clean sport.

But at the same time, you shouldn't get to complain about a witch hunt if you are actually a witch.
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