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The pedaling technique thread

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Re: Re:

07 Dec 2017 02:26

Do you realize you could have insulted researchers with those statements. For your information your data could be considered flawed because they were all pedalling natural style not non round ring style.


Again, we look at data, not opinion.
Hamish Ferguson
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Re: Re:

07 Dec 2017 02:28

backdoor wrote:
CoachFergie wrote:
Those of us who do have tried this and it is neither effective (more power) or more efficient (less O2 cost for a given power). These things are easily measured.


Impossible, first you need the special bike set up and then the technique.


Which makes your technique even more pointless if that is so.
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Re: Re:

07 Dec 2017 11:05

CoachFergie wrote:
backdoor wrote:
CoachFergie wrote:
Those of us who do have tried this and it is neither effective (more power) or more efficient (less O2 cost for a given power). These things are easily measured.


Impossible, first you need the special bike set up and then the technique.


Which makes your technique even more pointless if that is so.


Nonsense, regardless of what bike he was on, it was said that Anquetil always had the perfect bike set up and position, which can be explained by the fact that it is a self bike fitting technique.
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Re: Re:

07 Dec 2017 15:29

backdoor wrote:...
If you were asked to pedal on your bike using only a forward force around TDC, how would you apply it ?

---------------------------
Why such a silly question?
In the sector between about 11:30 to 12:30, producing a meaningful "forward force around TDC" can only be accomplished by using a forward 'kicking' motion of the lower leg. Some amount of forward force might be generated by ankle movement if the foot is trained for that motion.
Do you think some other way is possible or performed?

Regarding the t-o-w athletes, I'm certain that they all have some experience riding a bicycle, and use whatever pedalling technique seems most 'natural and efficient/effective' to them.

Jay Kosta
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Re: Re:

07 Dec 2017 16:37

backdoor wrote:
CoachFergie wrote:
backdoor wrote:
CoachFergie wrote:
Those of us who do have tried this and it is neither effective (more power) or more efficient (less O2 cost for a given power). These things are easily measured.


Impossible, first you need the special bike set up and then the technique.


Which makes your technique even more pointless if that is so.


Nonsense, regardless of what bike he was on, it was said that Anquetil always had the perfect bike set up and position, which can be explained by the fact that it is a self bike fitting technique.


Bold claims for someone who has no actual evidence. Where is the data to show this?
Hamish Ferguson
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Re: Re:

10 Dec 2017 01:21

JayKosta wrote:
backdoor wrote:...
If you were asked to pedal on your bike using only a forward force around TDC, how would you apply it ?

---------------------------
Why such a silly question?
In the sector between about 11:30 to 12:30, producing a meaningful "forward force around TDC" can only be accomplished by using a forward 'kicking' motion of the lower leg. Some amount of forward force might be generated by ankle movement if the foot is trained for that motion.
Do you think some other way is possible or performed?


Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA


That's what I have been trying to explain over the past few days, maximal torque can be applied at 12, 1 and 2 o'c by using the indoor to'w technique between 11-2 o'c instead of the useless kicking action between 11-1. As for that kicking action, it's more efficient to let the foot be pushed over TDC by the other leg than use the kicking action, counterweighted single leg pedalling confirmed that. My reason for asking that silly question was, if a t o'w man was asked the same question, I was wondering if he would attempt to use his t o'w technique there.
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Re: Re:

10 Dec 2017 01:30

CoachFergie wrote:
backdoor wrote:
CoachFergie wrote:
backdoor wrote:
CoachFergie wrote:
Those of us who do have tried this and it is neither effective (more power) or more efficient (less O2 cost for a given power). These things are easily measured.


Impossible, first you need the special bike set up and then the technique.


Which makes your technique even more pointless if that is so.


Nonsense, regardless of what bike he was on, it was said that Anquetil always had the perfect bike set up and position, which can be explained by the fact that it is a self bike fitting technique.


Bold claims for someone who has no actual evidence. Where is the data to show this?


I'd say J. Bobet could help with the evidence.
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Re: Re:

10 Dec 2017 19:16

backdoor wrote:
I'd say J. Bobet could help with the evidence.


Says it all really. Pathetic.
Hamish Ferguson
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Re: Re:

10 Dec 2017 19:19

backdoor wrote:That's what I have been trying to explain over the past few days, maximal torque can be applied at 12, 1 and 2 o'c by using the indoor to'w technique between 11-2 o'c instead of the useless kicking action between 11-1. As for that kicking action, it's more efficient to let the foot be pushed over TDC by the other leg than use the kicking action, counterweighted single leg pedalling confirmed that. My reason for asking that silly question was, if a t o'w man was asked the same question, I was wondering if he would attempt to use his t o'w technique there.


Do you even ride a bike? This is an ineffective method. You imagination is evidence of nothing but your stupidity.
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Re: Re:

10 Dec 2017 21:01

backdoor wrote:...
if a t o'w man was asked the same question, I was wondering if he would attempt to use his t-o-w technique there.

------------
My guess is that the t-o-w person would NOT try to do a STRONG 'kick foot forward' at TDC.
Would wait till just beyond 1 o'clock and then do STRONG combination 'kick forward' and 'push down'.
From about 11:30 to 1:00, there might be better than usual 'unweighting' to keep the foot moving in the desired circular pattern and speed (keeping momentum).

In actual t-o-w contests, does the knee/lower leg get bent as much as in cycling?
I doubt that the angle between lower and upper leg is ever 90 degrees or less.

Jay Kosta
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Re: Re:

11 Dec 2017 10:49

JayKosta wrote:
backdoor wrote:...
if a t o'w man was asked the same question, I was wondering if he would attempt to use his t-o-w technique there.

------------
My guess is that the t-o-w person would NOT try to do a STRONG 'kick foot forward' at TDC.
Would wait till just beyond 1 o'clock and then do STRONG combination 'kick forward' and 'push down'.
From about 11:30 to 1:00, there might be better than usual 'unweighting' to keep the foot moving in the desired circular pattern and speed (keeping momentum).

In actual t-o-w contests, does the knee/lower leg get bent as much as in cycling?
I doubt that the angle between lower and upper leg is ever 90 degrees or less.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA


If you cannot generate a tangential force at TDC equal or greater than that around 3 o'c, you would be better off forgetting about that sector and concentrating on the downstroke. When you use kicking forward with the downstroke, you are using two independent actions and the result will be a later start to a weaker downstroke. When you use the powerful INDOOR t o'w technique with the downstroke, it is one continuous extended power stroke.
The amount of knee bend would depend on the speed they are moving backwards.
backdoor
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Re: Re:

11 Dec 2017 17:25

backdoor wrote:
JayKosta wrote:
backdoor wrote:...
if a t o'w man was asked the same question, I was wondering if he would attempt to use his t-o-w technique there.

------------
My guess is that the t-o-w person would NOT try to do a STRONG 'kick foot forward' at TDC.
Would wait till just beyond 1 o'clock and then do STRONG combination 'kick forward' and 'push down'.
From about 11:30 to 1:00, there might be better than usual 'unweighting' to keep the foot moving in the desired circular pattern and speed (keeping momentum).

In actual t-o-w contests, does the knee/lower leg get bent as much as in cycling?
I doubt that the angle between lower and upper leg is ever 90 degrees or less.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA


If you cannot generate a tangential force at TDC equal or greater than that around 3 o'c, you would be better off forgetting about that sector and concentrating on the downstroke. When you use kicking forward with the downstroke, you are using two independent actions and the result will be a later start to a weaker downstroke. When you use the powerful INDOOR t o'w technique with the downstroke, it is one continuous extended power stroke.
The amount of knee bend would depend on the speed they are moving backwards.


Do you even ride Noel? We have tried this. It's not as powerful as you think.
Hamish Ferguson
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Re: Re:

17 Dec 2017 19:35

CoachFergie wrote:
backdoor wrote:
JayKosta wrote:
backdoor wrote:...
if a t o'w man was asked the same question, I was wondering if he would attempt to use his t-o-w technique there.

------------
My guess is that the t-o-w person would NOT try to do a STRONG 'kick foot forward' at TDC.
Would wait till just beyond 1 o'clock and then do STRONG combination 'kick forward' and 'push down'.
From about 11:30 to 1:00, there might be better than usual 'unweighting' to keep the foot moving in the desired circular pattern and speed (keeping momentum).

In actual t-o-w contests, does the knee/lower leg get bent as much as in cycling?
I doubt that the angle between lower and upper leg is ever 90 degrees or less.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA


If you cannot generate a tangential force at TDC equal or greater than that around 3 o'c, you would be better off forgetting about that sector and concentrating on the downstroke. When you use kicking forward with the downstroke, you are using two independent actions and the result will be a later start to a weaker downstroke. When you use the powerful INDOOR t o'w technique with the downstroke, it is one continuous extended power stroke.
The amount of knee bend would depend on the speed they are moving backwards.


Do you even ride Noel? We have tried this. It's not as powerful as you think.


I don't know what ye were trying, but I can say with certainty it was not the power generating technique that took years to develop and perfect. If it was possible by means of the ROTOR CRANK idea to accelerate the idling leg's crank from 5 to 1 o'c as downstroke power was being applied from 1 to 5, so as to give a simultaneous switch over of power application from one leg to the other when cranks are in the 1 / 5 o'c position, would there be an advantage ?
backdoor
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Re: Re:

17 Dec 2017 21:27

backdoor wrote:...
I don't know what ye were trying, but I can say with certainty it was not the power generating technique that took years to develop and perfect. If it was possible by means of the ROTOR CRANK idea to accelerate the idling leg's crank from 5 to 1 o'c as downstroke power was being applied from 1 to 5, so as to give a simultaneous switch over of power application from one leg to the other when cranks are in the 1 / 5 o'c position, would there be an advantage ?

------------------------------
A question - with the ROTOR CRANK does one pedal move from 5 to 1 while the other pedal moves from 1 to 5? If that is what happens, then either the cyclist is using muscles in an 'upward' motion from 5-to-1, or the muscles that push the pedal down from 1-to-5 are also being used to push the other pedal from 5-to-1 (or most likely some combination of muscles).

Whether there would be a 'cycling advantage' depends on whether the muscle usage to accomplish that motion is developed to have strength and endurance that is better than muscle usage with conventional pedalling technique and equipment. And the only way to really know if that has happened is by actual testing and measurement.

Regardless of what pedalling technique is used, muscle effort is needed for 2 basic things -
1) applying tangental force on the crank arm to propel the bike forward.
2) reposition the foot so it can again do #1.

Whether one pedalling technique has an advantage over another depends on how effectively and efficiently the rider can do the required muscle movements.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA
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Re: Re:

18 Dec 2017 00:27

JayKosta wrote:
backdoor wrote:...
I don't know what ye were trying, but I can say with certainty it was not the power generating technique that took years to develop and perfect. If it was possible by means of the ROTOR CRANK idea to accelerate the idling leg's crank from 5 to 1 o'c as downstroke power was being applied from 1 to 5, so as to give a simultaneous switch over of power application from one leg to the other when cranks are in the 1 / 5 o'c position, would there be an advantage ?

------------------------------
A question - with the ROTOR CRANK does one pedal move from 5 to 1 while the other pedal moves from 1 to 5? If that is what happens, then either the cyclist is using muscles in an 'upward' motion from 5-to-1, or the muscles that push the pedal down from 1-to-5 are also being used to push the other pedal from 5-to-1 (or most likely some combination of muscles).

Whether there would be a 'cycling advantage' depends on whether the muscle usage to accomplish that motion is developed to have strength and endurance that is better than muscle usage with conventional pedalling technique and equipment. And the only way to really know if that has happened is by actual testing and measurement.

Regardless of what pedalling technique is used, muscle effort is needed for 2 basic things -
1) applying tangental force on the crank arm to propel the bike forward.
2) reposition the foot so it can again do #1.

Whether one pedalling technique has an advantage over another depends on how effectively and efficiently the rider can do the required muscle movements.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA


With the ROTOR CRANK already in use, the idling leg is supposed to unweight and move upward from BDC slightly ahead of the faster moving upward crank. There is only a slight change as one crank is only about 10 deg past TDC when the other crank is at BDC position. It would be almost impossible to change it to what I was suggesting, which would be to mechanically compensate for the inability to apply effective torque throughout the entire 60 deg TDC sector. Apart from the extra weight and increased friction in the extra moving parts gearing would be too high around 3 o'c. Instead of trying to mechanically compensate for this dead sector, Anquetil changed his muscle use to directly replace that sector with max torque. This also meant having the muscle action in the idling leg mentally travelling well ahead of the crank from 5 to 11 o'c so as to be ready for simultaneous switch over of max power application at 11 o'c.
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Re: Re:

18 Dec 2017 14:11

backdoor wrote:... Anquetil changed his muscle use to directly replace that sector with max torque. This also meant having the muscle action in the idling leg mentally travelling well ahead of the crank from 5 to 11 o'c so as to be ready for simultaneous switch over of max power application at 11 o'c.

-----------------------------
Your description of Anqutil's muscle usage is now getting very similar to the 'mainline' explanation of Anq's success - Anq had exceptional (and rare) physiology (muscle type, VO2 capacity, etc.) - and he used it to TRAIN his muscles to perform in what was for him, a highly effective and efficient pedalling technique.

I think that every cyclist attempts to pedal in a manner that they think is most effective and efficient. The phyical (and mental) differences between people makes their specific individual technique different from each other. Without similar physical and mental ability, it is unlikely someone can simply be taught to pedal the same as Anq - they might try, but probably with less success than when using their own preferred method.

Jay Kosta
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18 Dec 2017 22:52

Merckx dropped his heels. He was way better than Jacques. Nuff said.
Hamish Ferguson
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18 Dec 2017 23:47

Anquetil, Merckx and Hinault had significantly different pedalling styles. All managed to do OK. Amazing. or not
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Re:

19 Dec 2017 01:12

Alex Simmons/RST wrote:Anquetil, Merckx and Hinault had significantly different pedalling styles. All managed to do OK. Amazing. or not


The pedalling of Merckx and Hinault may have looked different but in reality they were both using the same basic technique in which greatest torque could only be applied around 3 o'c and both riders' legs were effectively idling around TDC.
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Re: Re:

19 Dec 2017 04:56

backdoor wrote:
Alex Simmons/RST wrote:Anquetil, Merckx and Hinault had significantly different pedalling styles. All managed to do OK. Amazing. or not


The pedalling of Merckx and Hinault may have looked different but in reality they were both using the same basic technique in which greatest torque could only be applied around 3 o'c and both riders' legs were effectively idling around TDC.

Hinault perfected a special backward pedalling technique that enabled him to capture and use the torque his opponents were wasting with their mashing styles.

No one in the history of the sport before or since has been able to replicate Hinault's phenomenal backward torque suck even though high jumpers and shot putters the world over have been routinely deploying these methods since the 1970s.

There are however rumours of some Zwift turbo torque sucking being trialled by a few riders in Kazakstan in prep for the anticipated Zwift world champs in 2019, to be held on a virtual replica of the Zolder course so favoured by Mario Cipollini.
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