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The Clinic is the only place on Cyclingnews where you can discuss doping-related issues. Ask questions, discuss positives or improvements to procedures.

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06 Jan 2018 19:43

Never stop believing in the power of the Dawg! If he can transform from sandshoe wearing second rate rider then he can seed Comeback 2.0 and be stronger than ever! :p



Running up the Alpe d'Huez 2018

https://goo.gl/images/RjngzM
Last edited by macbindle on 06 Jan 2018 20:11, edited 1 time in total.
(Warning: Posts may contain traces of irony)
User avatar macbindle
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Re:

06 Jan 2018 20:01

macbindle wrote:Running up the Alpe d'Huez 2018

https://goo.gl/images/RjngzM

honestly, what does a post like this add to this thread?
rick james
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06 Jan 2018 21:19

Boogerd is back and he says a few things:

"I've never been a big fan of Froome anyway, I do not think it's an attractive rider, but how I look at it, I'm really surprised how the reactions are, how naively certain media or followers understand this ..."

It's in Dutch, this is just a google translate. This translation is particularly fun:
"There is still crap. And Froome does just that too.
Michael Boogerd about the cycling world"

Here's the original: https://nos.nl/artikel/2209133-boogerd-is-terug-wordt-nog-steeds-gekloot-en-froome-doet-mee.html
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Re:

06 Jan 2018 21:38

Rollthedice wrote:It's in Dutch, this is just a google translate. This translation is particularly fun:
"There is still crap. And Froome does just that too.
Michael Boogerd about the cycling world"
Here's the original: https://nos.nl/artikel/2209133-boogerd-is-terug-wordt-nog-steeds-gekloot-en-froome-doet-mee.html

Gekloot, I think it's not totally obscene slang, but it's certainly not polite :

http://context.reverso.net/translation/dutch-english/gekloot
"Caution: These examples may contain rude words based on your search." :p
ClassicomanoLuigi
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Re:

06 Jan 2018 21:43

Rollthedice wrote:Boogerd is back and he says a few things:

"I've never been a big fan of Froome anyway, I do not think it's an attractive rider, but how I look at it, I'm really surprised how the reactions are, how naively certain media or followers understand this ..."

It's in Dutch, this is just a google translate. This translation is particularly fun:
"There is still crap. And Froome does just that too.
Michael Boogerd about the cycling world"

Here's the original: https://nos.nl/artikel/2209133-boogerd-is-terug-wordt-nog-steeds-gekloot-en-froome-doet-mee.html


Good stuff from Boogie. Need more of the cycling world speaking out like this. Boogie is well aware of Leinders can do.
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Re: Re:

07 Jan 2018 09:03

Soggy Chamois wrote:
rick james wrote:
macbindle wrote:Running up the Alpe d'Huez 2018

https://goo.gl/images/RjngzM

honestly, what does a post like this add to this thread?


More than your typical sarcastic "lol" posts

But that was funny..
Asking if sky are micro-dosing something that isnt banned is funny....maybe they were micro-dosing fresh air

lol
rick james
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Re: Re:

07 Jan 2018 10:28

rhubroma wrote:
Alpe73 wrote:
rhubroma wrote:Cycling seems poised to get bogged down in the morass of another farce, in which the long drawn-out legal proceedings risk allowing Froome to compete in the Giro and Tour, potentially win them, only to have the results invalidated when he is subsequently given a definitive ban. It will be interesting to see how the cycling establishment handles this predicament, for major sponsorship is getting increasingly difficult to come by and without it the sport risks folding (or getting seriously downscaled). It would be supremely ironic if Sky, the beacon of virtue, transparency and ethical conduct, were to become the fulcrum of the sport's precipitous financial decline. Especially given the Murdoch empire till recently behind the British squadra, for which the sport has potentially enticed big money toward its own extinction.


Great stuff, Rhub.

Now you can’t tell me you haven’t done the odd ... “The whole world’s a stage ...” round at the community playhouse.

Am I right? Ha ha! Sure I am, lad.

I don’t suppose you have a fecking clue about pro sport ... but who gives a feck, anyway?
Drama’s your strong point, lad.


Est modus in rebus, beyond which there can be no justice. Everything else is for the suckers.
Image


You could do an Off Broadway/Indie/local playhouse/in your pantry rendition of “The 7 Deadly Sins of Sky.” Curtain drops ... Chuck D ... “Fight the Power.” Fear of a Froome Planet.
User avatar Alpe73
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Re: Re:

07 Jan 2018 13:49

Alpe73 wrote:
rhubroma wrote:
Alpe73 wrote:
rhubroma wrote:Cycling seems poised to get bogged down in the morass of another farce, in which the long drawn-out legal proceedings risk allowing Froome to compete in the Giro and Tour, potentially win them, only to have the results invalidated when he is subsequently given a definitive ban. It will be interesting to see how the cycling establishment handles this predicament, for major sponsorship is getting increasingly difficult to come by and without it the sport risks folding (or getting seriously downscaled). It would be supremely ironic if Sky, the beacon of virtue, transparency and ethical conduct, were to become the fulcrum of the sport's precipitous financial decline. Especially given the Murdoch empire till recently behind the British squadra, for which the sport has potentially enticed big money toward its own extinction.


Great stuff, Rhub.

Now you can’t tell me you haven’t done the odd ... “The whole world’s a stage ...” round at the community playhouse.

Am I right? Ha ha! Sure I am, lad.

I don’t suppose you have a fecking clue about pro sport ... but who gives a feck, anyway?
Drama’s your strong point, lad.


Est modus in rebus, beyond which there can be no justice. Everything else is for the suckers.
Image


You could do an Off Broadway/Indie/local playhouse/in your pantry rendition of “The 7 Deadly Sins of Sky.” Curtain drops ... Chuck D ... “Fight the Power.” Fear of a Froome Planet.


I'm thinking more like a feak show Vaudeville act for rubes like yourself. The story line would be something like this: after Brailsford's improbable discovery of an overweight and athsmatic Froome during an inconsequential placement in a TT of an equally unimportant race to Alien phenom, they are averted to an AAF for Froome's asthma medication during the Vuelta (he goes on to win after the Tour, making cycling history). In an effort to keep things hush, hush, Brailsford contrives a plan: Froome is to do the Giro for the first time before going for the Tour creating a media sensation, the economic consequenses of which for the sport are too significant to ignore. So with collusion from the cycling governing body, Froome's doping offense is buried, until, that is, some French journo gets wind of it and the story is leaked. Now the greatest team of sports lawyers are put together to make sure Froome's case isn't resolved in time for the Giro and Tour appointments. But...in each country Froome and Sky attempts to prepare their captain for his season objectives, there are outbreaks of sabotage and baffoonery. In Spain the insorgent Catalognians temporarily relinquish their secessionist cause to protest against any of Froome's attempts to ride through their territory, which ironically drums up national support. The Italians make it clear they will take similar measures, only to be betrayed by the Neapolitian mob, since the Camorra has a stake in Sky's success, given that the mafia syndicate has for years controlled the black market doping distribution in Europe. Nevertheless in the build-up to the Giro, Team Sky's bus and hotels are repeatedly bombarded with rotten eggs. The south of France sees early morning baguette deliverers lining Froome's known training routes in the Alpes Maritimes above Nice with tacs to ensure multiple flats, which annoyingly causes setbacks to Sky's maniacal attention to details thus complicating the preparations. Naturally French law enforcement becomes seriously concerned for Froome's and Sky's saftey during the Tour. The satirical aspects of this farse get accompanied by much bawdy music and ballerinas. The protagonists are played by extremely loud and incredibly fat dwarves on bikes who end up taking the freak show to the furtherest reaches Africa and Asia.

Image
User avatar rhubroma
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08 Jan 2018 09:34

Mod hat on:

A gentle reminder folks, post, not poster.

Thanks.
Vincenzo Nibali:
"I know how to ride a bike"

Reduce your carbon footprint, ride steel.
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Re:

08 Jan 2018 10:22

Alpe d'Huez wrote:So Froome should then be able to walk away comfortably knowing in all honesty that he's clean?


Only he can answer that one.
TheSpud
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Re: Re:

08 Jan 2018 17:11

TheSpud wrote:
Alpe d'Huez wrote:So Froome should then be able to walk away comfortably knowing in all honesty that he's clean?


Only he can answer that one.


No, anyone can answer that now. He's turned a positive at DOUBLE the (generously) allowed level. He's a confirmed doper. End of story.
User avatar red_flanders
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08 Jan 2018 17:22

It's not quite the end of the story. The end of the story is when his attempt to explain the high concentration of Salbutamol in his urine is either accepted or rejected. Then, and only then, will he be a confirmed doper. Or not.
(Warning: Posts may contain traces of irony)
User avatar macbindle
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08 Jan 2018 18:02

Do we have to wait for his explanation to confirm that he is a doper?

I don't think so. At least I don't care for his explanation. Well, I want to know what he has to say just to have a good laugh.
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Re:

08 Jan 2018 18:27

Escarabajo wrote:Do we have to wait for his explanation to confirm that he is a doper?

I don't think so. At least I don't care for his explanation. Well, I want to know what he has to say just to have a good laugh.


In so far as Salbutamol is deemed doping ONLY if no reasonable explanation can be given for an amount in his urine that exceeds what is permitted. He hasn't presented an explanation yet. It's not confirmed, at least in the eyes of sports rules.

Actually, I don't care about his explanation either. For me a ban for Salbutamol or no ban won't satiate my curiosity. For me its a huge unintended red-herring. Ive no idea how he came to have so much in his body, but I strongly believe that it does not explain his performance.

I think there is something else. That 'something else' might even be something yet to be even on the anti-doping radar.

Wouldn't that be ironic if so? Taking next level super dope, but banned for a blue inhaler.
(Warning: Posts may contain traces of irony)
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Re: Re:

08 Jan 2018 18:57

macbindle wrote:
Escarabajo wrote:Do we have to wait for his explanation to confirm that he is a doper?

I don't think so. At least I don't care for his explanation. Well, I want to know what he has to say just to have a good laugh.


In so far as Salbutamol is deemed doping ONLY if no reasonable explanation can be given for an amount in his urine that exceeds what is permitted. He hasn't presented an explanation yet. It's not confirmed, at least in the eyes of sports rules.

Actually, I don't care about his explanation either. For me a ban for Salbutamol or no ban won't satiate my curiosity. For me its a huge unintended red-herring. Ive no idea how he came to have so much in his body, but I strongly believe that it does not explain his performance.

I think there is something else. That 'something else' might even be something yet to be even on the anti-doping radar.

Wouldn't that be ironic if so? Taking next level super dope, but banned for a blue inhaler.


quite...and of course let's await the explanation but we already know from Paula that exoneration from the NADA means...eh nada when an informed public have access to information they would not normally have.....
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08 Jan 2018 19:05

Macb's reference to getting banned due to a blue inhaler made me think of the Alain Baxter case and his ban and stripping of his medal due to a Vicks inhaler positive. I've posted a wee bit from his Wiki page which gives most of the details. Some obvious clear differences to the current Froome case (banned stimulant) but some similarities as well. Anyhoo, thought I would post on a cold out of season January night:

Urine tests[edit]
Baxter had provided a urine sample immediately after the race on 23 February.[23] Initial reports were that his urine sample contained a trace amount of methamphetamine, a banned stimulant. The BOA formally asked the IOC to carry out a split test on Baxter's sample on the basis that there are two forms of the drug.[24] The more advanced tests showed that the substance present was levMethamphetamine, a levorotary isomer of methamphetamine, which has no significant stimulant properties. Baxter later proved the source of levMethamphetamine was from a Vicks inhaler that he had used in the United States. He had been unaware that the contents were different from those found in the UK version. The International Ski Federation accepted his explanation and on 2 June announced they would require him to serve a ban him of 3 months,[25][26] on the basis that this was a first offence of unintentionally using a prohibited substance.[27] This sanction meant he would miss the first month of the 2002–3 World Cup season and an appeal was lodged in late June.[27]

International Ski Federation appeal[edit]
The British Ski and Snowboard Federation appealed to the Court of Arbitration for Sport (CAS) and the case was heard on 30 September 2002. The appeal was successful and his ban was overturned.[28] This gave the Baxter camp great hope for the next appeal to have his medal returned.

Olympic appeal[edit]
The British Olympic Association assisted with, and publicly funded, an appeal against the loss of his medal. In October 2002 his medal appeal was heard by the Court of Arbitration for Sport in Lausanne.[29] The basis of the appeal was that the form of methamphetamine in the USA Vicks levMethamphetamine is an inactive isomer of methamphetamine. The CAS and the IOC agreed that he had not intentionally ingested the substance.[30] Under the strict liability doctrine, athletes are liable if they inadvertently take any form of potentially performance-enhancing substance, and a large number of athletes have lost medals as a result. Cold cures and other over-the-counter medicines are the most common sources of trace levels of amphetamines and other stimulants. His appeal rested on whether levAmphetamine was performance-enhancing, Vicks and other expert witnesses explained that it was a decongestant, and had negligible stimulant properties. Dr Don Catlin maintained that the banned list did not specify isomers so all forms were on the banned list and the strict liability doctrine applied. This was particularly controversial since 100 US athletes who won 19 medals tested positive for stimulants at his laboratory, and were cleared to continue competing, and Dr. Catlin was named as part of a 3-man committee that routinely allowed US Olympians such as Carl Lewis to continue competing despite failing drugs tests.[31][32] The vast majority of athletes named in Wade Exum's papers tested positive for stimulants found in over-the-counter cold medicines. Most were cleared after explaining that they had taken the substances inadvertently.[33][34]

The Baxter Appeal team headed by Professor Arnold Beckett, a former member of the IOC medical commission, thought Dr Catlin's position was "inconsistent". He stated, "The things we are being told about in the USA make me very angry, particularly in relation to Alain Baxter's case. He did not take a banned substance, as levAmphetamine was not on the list, but it was Dr Catlin's evidence which the appeal committee believed."

The court upheld the IOC's decision to disqualify Baxter.[29][35] The CAS judgement found that "The panel is not without sympathy for Mr Baxter, who appears to be a sincere and honest man who did not intend to obtain a competitive advantage in the race."[29]:8 Nevertheless, they found that his offence had been committed and as such would not reinstate the medal.[36] In December 2002, Raich received the bronze medal.[37]
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Re:

08 Jan 2018 19:55

macbindle wrote:It's not quite the end of the story. The end of the story is when his attempt to explain the high concentration of Salbutamol in his urine is either accepted or rejected. Then, and only then, will he be a confirmed doper. Or not.


Nonsense. There is no legitimate explanation for this, no matter what legal and administrative machinations happen. If the values are confirmed, and they have been, he is a doper. No matter what cover-up might happen afterwards.
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Re: Re:

08 Jan 2018 21:02

red_flanders wrote:
macbindle wrote:It's not quite the end of the story. The end of the story is when his attempt to explain the high concentration of Salbutamol in his urine is either accepted or rejected. Then, and only then, will he be a confirmed doper. Or not.


Nonsense. There is no legitimate explanation for this, no matter what legal and administrative machinations happen. If the values are confirmed, and they have been, he is a doper. No matter what cover-up might happen afterwards.


The fact that Froome is neither yet suspended nor yet banned is quite surprising for somebody with a status of 'confirmed doper'. Or maybe its just that you are mistaken.

Either way, we'll have to agree to disagree on this point. I don't doubt that very soon he will have the status to which you ascribe him.
(Warning: Posts may contain traces of irony)
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Re: Re:

08 Jan 2018 21:14

macbindle wrote:
red_flanders wrote:
macbindle wrote:It's not quite the end of the story. The end of the story is when his attempt to explain the high concentration of Salbutamol in his urine is either accepted or rejected. Then, and only then, will he be a confirmed doper. Or not.


Nonsense. There is no legitimate explanation for this, no matter what legal and administrative machinations happen. If the values are confirmed, and they have been, he is a doper. No matter what cover-up might happen afterwards.


The fact that Froome is neither yet suspended nor yet banned is quite surprising for somebody with a status of 'confirmed doper'. Or maybe its just that you are mistaken.

Either way, we'll have to agree to disagree on this point. I don't doubt that very soon he will have the status to which you ascribe him.


It's not surprising at all. Look, if this was some trace amount or anywhere near the limit, fine, let's hear it out. It's not. It's clear, cut and dried doping and the only thing left is for the lawyers to make their money and the spin doctors theirs.

I get that everyone won't agree but the idea that "then and only then is he a doper" is absurd to me and many others.

It is one thing to be a proven doper. It is another thing to be sanctioned for it. The former does not depend on the latter.
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08 Jan 2018 22:20

He will be in the category along with Piepoli, Indurain (good company) and the others, right above Pliushin

https://www.dopeology.org/products/Salbutamol/
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