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Froome Talk Only

The Clinic is the only place on Cyclingnews where you can discuss doping-related issues. Ask questions, discuss positives or improvements to procedures.

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Re: Froome Talk Only

14 Jun 2018 08:11

L'arriviste wrote:
gillan1969 wrote:Testo - £8
Corticos - £7
epo - £20
Dottore Ferrari - Priceless


:D

This is OT but I often receive enquiries through my website from folks who seem to have misunderstood what it is about.

For those who are interested in the price of fish the following, sent by an organisation apparently blacklisted in the United States, represents a current USD price list per 100g:

MK-677 - $1200
Ostarine - $220
GW1516 - $400
SR9009 - $1300
AICAR - $2500
RAD140 - $1450
LGD-4033 - $670
S4 - $200
YK-11- $1600
S23 - $380
ACP-105 - $1950

Some of these I have never even heard of and I doubt they are all detectable already.


They are all detectable. Whether they are currently being looked for is a different matter...

The bulk of the list are SARMs with GTX inc. well represented and Ligand Pharma too. Theres a growth hormone modulator in there, a couple I'd have to look up but I'm guessing SARMs too.
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14 Jun 2018 09:23

Antoine Vayer keeps tweeting that Bobby Julich is a factor with Froome. ??
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Re: Froome Talk Only

14 Jun 2018 10:03

Was riding with some friends yesterday. One started a conversation about the Tour de Suisse. An old guy and I got chatting. He revealed his love for the Dawg. I bit my tongue carried on the convo about the TdS and the Criterium. He said he didnt see Thomas as a GT contendor. Then he said;

'He aint half lost some weight though'

I was virtually biting through my tongue at this point. Then he said 'Well, I suppose that's all Froome had to do to become a contendor, once they found out how to treat that blood disease he had'

:lol: I nearly crashed into him laughing.

I did mention about Bio passport etc, he didnt have a retort or a retort for why the grand masters at Sky didnt pick this up at all.
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Re: Froome Talk Only

14 Jun 2018 10:27

MartinGT wrote:Was riding with some friends yesterday. One started a conversation about the Tour de Suisse. An old guy and I got chatting. He revealed his love for the Dawg. I bit my tongue carried on the convo about the TdS and the Criterium. He said he didnt see Thomas as a GT contendor. Then he said;

'He aint half lost some weight though'

I was virtually biting through my tongue at this point. Then he said 'Well, I suppose that's all Froome had to do to become a contendor, once they found out how to treat that blood disease he had'

:lol: I nearly crashed into him laughing.

I did mention about Bio passport etc, he didnt have a retort or a retort for why the grand masters at Sky didnt pick this up at all.


its time finally to put up with the fact that some people like froome as rationally as others irrationally dislike him ;)
Last edited by dacooley on 14 Jun 2018 10:40, edited 1 time in total.
dacooley
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Re: Froome Talk Only

14 Jun 2018 10:33

dacooley wrote:
MartinGT wrote:Was riding with some friends yesterday. One started a conversation about the Tour de Suisse. An old guy and I got chatting. He revealed his love for the Dawg. I bit my tongue carried on the convo about the TdS and the Criterium. He said he didnt see Thomas as a GT contendor. Then he said;

'He aint half lost some weight though'

I was virtually biting through my tongue at this point. Then he said 'Well, I suppose that's all Froome had to do to become a contendor, once they found out how to treat that blood disease he had'

:lol: I nearly crashed into him laughing.

I did mention about Bio passport etc, he didnt have a retort or a retort for why the grand masters at Sky didnt pick this up at all.


its time finally to put up with the fact that some people like people as rationally as others dislike him ;)


Indeed..and is all this 'knowledge' that some claim to possess a good thing? Does it enhance or prohibit the enjoyment of sport.

After all, for most people that's all that professional sport is...something to watch and be enjoyed.
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Re: Froome Talk Only

14 Jun 2018 10:42

brownbobby wrote:
dacooley wrote:
MartinGT wrote:Was riding with some friends yesterday. One started a conversation about the Tour de Suisse. An old guy and I got chatting. He revealed his love for the Dawg. I bit my tongue carried on the convo about the TdS and the Criterium. He said he didnt see Thomas as a GT contendor. Then he said;

'He aint half lost some weight though'

I was virtually biting through my tongue at this point. Then he said 'Well, I suppose that's all Froome had to do to become a contendor, once they found out how to treat that blood disease he had'

:lol: I nearly crashed into him laughing.

I did mention about Bio passport etc, he didnt have a retort or a retort for why the grand masters at Sky didnt pick this up at all.


its time finally to put up with the fact that some people like people as rationally as others dislike him ;)


Indeed..and is all this 'knowledge' that some claim to possess a good thing? Does it enhance or prohibit the enjoyment of sport.

After all, for most people that's all that professional sport is...something to watch and be enjoyed.


Oh aye without a doubt.

In some ways I envy how 'simple' they look upon it.
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Re: Froome Talk Only

14 Jun 2018 11:29

MartinGT wrote:
brownbobby wrote:
dacooley wrote:
MartinGT wrote:Was riding with some friends yesterday. One started a conversation about the Tour de Suisse. An old guy and I got chatting. He revealed his love for the Dawg. I bit my tongue carried on the convo about the TdS and the Criterium. He said he didnt see Thomas as a GT contendor. Then he said;

'He aint half lost some weight though'

I was virtually biting through my tongue at this point. Then he said 'Well, I suppose that's all Froome had to do to become a contendor, once they found out how to treat that blood disease he had'

:lol: I nearly crashed into him laughing.

I did mention about Bio passport etc, he didnt have a retort or a retort for why the grand masters at Sky didnt pick this up at all.


its time finally to put up with the fact that some people like people as rationally as others dislike him ;)


Indeed..and is all this 'knowledge' that some claim to possess a good thing? Does it enhance or prohibit the enjoyment of sport.

After all, for most people that's all that professional sport is...something to watch and be enjoyed.


Oh aye without a doubt.

In some ways I envy how 'simple' they look upon it.

let's be plainspoken, froome climbing up to the top of stage racers pyramid is hardly a global injustice. moreover, for an outlier / non-inhabitant of this thread, him winning 6 grand tours is quite an ordinary thing as well as when similar happened to armstong, contador, nibali, hinault whoever. only we, highly small group of cycling misfits and anti-doping internet trolls. don't mind dissecting such abstract things as natural talent, pedigree, genetics, superresponder ability for years, desperately trying to get to the bottom of froome's resurrection and still not succeeding.
yes, his 2011 transformation was mind-boggling but that's the case where we'll never find complete answers. i'm rather surprised on why he keeps shocking so many people. as i previously suggested, froome's results seemed astounding in 2011, 2012, ok, fair enough, in 2013. at this point, what he delivers is entirely expected, that's more of a normal of life.
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Re:

14 Jun 2018 11:49

Cycle Chic wrote:Antoine Vayer keeps tweeting that Bobby Julich is a factor with Froome. ??
Julich worked on Froome at Sky, before the American came down with a severe dose of previously undiagnosed ZTP. From a now 404ed page on the Sky site:
Bobby Julich wasted little time upon joining Team Sky at the start of the 2011 season, putting his expertise to good use in getting the most out of the riders around him as a race coach.

Nowhere was the American’s influence more apparent than the meteoric rise of Chris Froome, the Brit taking the Vuelta by the scruff of the neck to claim second place overall in addition to an epic stage victory and stint in the red jersey.

It was the same race in 1996 where Julich shot to prominence with a top-10 finish in 1996.
and
“I didn’t bring Chris to the team. They knew about his talent and they had to convince me about his talent. Then working with Chris he definitely convinced me pretty quickly. There was no magic sprinkle dust with getting him to ride better. It was basically working a little bit on his confidence and the way he rode the races because he has already training really well. You can sit back now and just shake your head and say ‘wow. I didn’t see that coming!’”
Froome himself has also pointed to Julich, when Kimmage suggested his transformation was down to Leinders:
PK: Dr Geert Leinders was brought on board for 2011, and if you look at the graph of performance, it is a somewhat unfortunate coincidence that it goes up as soon as he joins.

CF: Could it not have been Bobby Julich joining?
Kerrison took over after Julich exited:
PK: I’m interested that you didn’t mention (Tim) Kerrison’s name when I suggested the improvement might have come from Leinders. You mentioned Julich?

(Note: Kerrison, the Head of Athlete Performance, is generally credited as the ‘Genie’ at Team Sky.)

CF: Personally, I never worked with Tim.

PK: You never worked with him?

CF: No.

MC: Not until this year. [2014]

CF: Not until Bobby left [2012]. I was working with Rod (Ellingworth) at first and then with Bobby when he came. Tim was always working with Brad and the more top-end guys. I think Tim would set training that Bobby would assign to me, so it was indirectly coming from Tim, but I had very little contact with Tim at that point.
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Re: Froome Talk Only

14 Jun 2018 12:40

I'm
red_flanders wrote:
samhocking wrote:
red_flanders wrote:
DFA123 wrote:
The other issue with this is that why would the special program - which seems to be based around weight loss - only work with a few riders. Or why did they only trial it with a few riders. Why didn't they turn EBH into a GT winner, or Cummings?


I think in EBH you have the career arc of a naturally talented rider who has decided not to dope. His results are probably about what a clean rider can hope for, at least classics-wise, which seems to be his skill set. Who knows, however, what a full program would have allowed him to do.


Is that suggesting Sky's program is not team-based but an individual rider decision then? Assuming Sky have a magic cocktail, magic doctor nobody else has and not detectable, why give him a contract at all to allow him to ride clean and rhen renew his contract again two years later? He was there for 4 years with Wiggins & Froome.


That a team would have a doping program and that decisions about doping are made by individuals are two things not in conflict. That would be normal, and as such I don't think your question makes sense.

When you start talking about magic this or that, it suggests you're less looking for an answer to those questions than poking fun at a notion that Sky have some kind of advantage. That's fine, it does seem unlikely they have special knowledge at this point, after all the transfers in and out of the team. But it's certainly not impossible.

To put a finer point on the team/individual component, it's a fact that Froome's original breakout in the Vuelta was a huge surprise to the team. The obvious conclusion, at least to me, is that he started a program individually, likely with Bermon (viewtopic.php?f=20&t=29971). Clearly Froome was not in position to be part of any inner circle of doping, if it existed at the time, and clearly his ascendance pissed of Wiggins beyond just a power struggle. One had the distinct feeling Froome wasn't supposed to be there. Whether the last bit is the case or not, you almost certainly have at least one rider doping outside of the framework of the team at one point in time.

What that means as far as how they conduct any program they may have is unclear. Teams have long had circles of riders who are in our out of a program, that would not be new or unusual. And riders outside of the inner circle have been gainfully employed for extended periods, but do not tend to make the team for big races like the Tour. But sometimes they have, so who knows?

What you have in EBH is a rider who was fantastic in youth and junior racing, who came to the pros and had some early results, and then was blown away by what appears to be a resurgence in full-tilt doping after what appears to have been a reduction in doping at the time of the passport's introduction. It all fits a view that new testing had some effect on doping at the time and then teams, as they do, figured out ways around it.

There is no case to be made that because EBH isn't doping that Sky aren't running a full program. Makes no sense. His career path is compatible with team-wide, inner-circle wide, or individual doping. Sky's results strongly suggest but do not prove team-wide doping. A team-wide cover-up of doping on the team is not in question. See Sky's reaction to the surprise of Froome as the first concrete example of this.


I'm not using the term magic in that way, I'm using it to imply we don't know how Sky are winning in so far assuming you believe its via doping but other teams are doping too, so still unknown in effect.

To me, even a basic doping strategy would involve all riders in a team. Doping is cheap. [b]Corticosteroids are £7, EPO £20, Testosterone £8.[/b] Why would you make the decision to put a randomly doping individual or a non-doper in to a team who's doping is organised. Is that not increasing risk of getting popped by that rider or if clean, simply weakening the team? Even if your GC guys are inner circle, why purposely weaken the team by not team doping everyone.
Alternatively if doping is purely individual.acros the team, then doping is actually then definitely the same as every other team because those riders come from every other team prior to arriving at Sky. That's still not going to explain winning either.
What I'm still puzzled about is, the assuredness of the clinic Sky are winning because they are doping, yet that doping is in other teams too, so doesn't explain the imbalance in success. Sure if the jiffy bag claim was something we've never heard about on cycling, or revealed some secret squirrel doctor or substance, yes that would torally explain it. Testosterone, Corticosteroids and TUEs are not going to explain it, no matter how much proof there is that's what Sky riders have been given, because that is not advanced doping that is doping of 20 years ago any rider could perform perfectly adequately external to Sky.[/quote]

Blimey that’s cheap, where ya getting ya gear Sam......asking for a friend :D[/quote]





You can get cheaper. Kenalog 40 you can get for under £2 online lol. None of it is difficult to find. DRS website, Pharm2u etc. That's not even looking at other corners of the internet.
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14 Jun 2018 12:56

drugs themselves are very cheap, but the knowledge of how, when, in what quantity to inject and which masking agents to use is a completely different cost level.
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14 Jun 2018 13:11

I would think the cost of raw materials is a tiny proportion of the overall cost of doping.

Ricco learnt the hard way why it's not a good idea to try doping without paying for the expertise.
(Warning: Posts may contain traces of irony)
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Re:

14 Jun 2018 14:12

macbindle wrote:I would think the cost of raw materials is a tiny proportion of the overall cost of doping.

Ricco learnt the hard way why it's not a good idea to try doping without paying for the expertise.


Or a proper fridge :p
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Re:

14 Jun 2018 14:21

dacooley wrote:drugs themselves are very cheap, but the knowledge of how, when, in what quantity to inject and which masking agents to use is a completely different cost level.


I saw an advert from Team Sky in one of the medical job sites for Team Sky Doctor. January to August, 30-60 hours per week. Was up to £200k/year. Looking into Football, head team doctors seem to get from £100-200k depending on experience.
If you add Froome for his first Vuelta breakthrough was probably earning less than Freeman, it would only take £2-400k to take a nobody to a GT winner and so I well within reach of all World Tour teams?
Obviously we don't know black market rates for illegal doctors, but Freeman did come from Football, not cycling originally.
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Re: Froome Talk Only

14 Jun 2018 19:03

MartinGT wrote:Was riding with some friends yesterday. One started a conversation about the Tour de Suisse. An old guy and I got chatting. He revealed his love for the Dawg. I bit my tongue carried on the convo about the TdS and the Criterium. He said he didnt see Thomas as a GT contendor. Then he said;

'He aint half lost some weight though'

I was virtually biting through my tongue at this point. Then he said 'Well, I suppose that's all Froome had to do to become a contendor, once they found out how to treat that blood disease he had'

:lol: I nearly crashed into him laughing.

I did mention about Bio passport etc, he didnt have a retort or a retort for why the grand masters at Sky didnt pick this up at all.


Could I get a translation of that?
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Re: Re:

14 Jun 2018 19:40

samhocking wrote:
dacooley wrote:drugs themselves are very cheap, but the knowledge of how, when, in what quantity to inject and which masking agents to use is a completely different cost level.


I saw an advert from Team Sky in one of the medical job sites for Team Sky Doctor. January to August, 30-60 hours per week. Was up to £200k/year. Looking into Football, head team doctors seem to get from £100-200k depending on experience.
If you add Froome for his first Vuelta breakthrough was probably earning less than Freeman, it would only take £2-400k to take a nobody to a GT winner and so I well within reach of all World Tour teams?
Obviously we don't know black market rates for illegal doctors, but Freeman did come from Football, not cycling originally.


Again, Sky were unquestionably surprised by Froome in his Vuelta breakthrough. He wasn't even on the original roster. It's incredibly unlikely that Sky funded whatever Froome was doing at the time.
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Re: Froome Talk Only

14 Jun 2018 19:46

RedheadDane wrote:
MartinGT wrote:Was riding with some friends yesterday. One started a conversation about the Tour de Suisse. An old guy and I got chatting. He revealed his love for the Dawg. I bit my tongue carried on the convo about the TdS and the Criterium. He said he didnt see Thomas as a GT contendor. Then he said;

'He aint half lost some weight though'

I was virtually biting through my tongue at this point. Then he said 'Well, I suppose that's all Froome had to do to become a contendor, once they found out how to treat that blood disease he had'

:lol: I nearly crashed into him laughing.

I did mention about Bio passport etc, he didnt have a retort or a retort for why the grand masters at Sky didnt pick this up at all.


Could I get a translation of that?


he looks like he's lost a lot of weight
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Re: Re:

14 Jun 2018 19:49

red_flanders wrote:
samhocking wrote:
dacooley wrote:drugs themselves are very cheap, but the knowledge of how, when, in what quantity to inject and which masking agents to use is a completely different cost level.


I saw an advert from Team Sky in one of the medical job sites for Team Sky Doctor. January to August, 30-60 hours per week. Was up to £200k/year. Looking into Football, head team doctors seem to get from £100-200k depending on experience.
If you add Froome for his first Vuelta breakthrough was probably earning less than Freeman, it would only take £2-400k to take a nobody to a GT winner and so I well within reach of all World Tour teams?
Obviously we don't know black market rates for illegal doctors, but Freeman did come from Football, not cycling originally.


Again, Sky were unquestionably surprised by Froome in his Vuelta breakthrough. He wasn't even on the original roster. It's incredibly unlikely that Sky funded whatever Froome was doing at the time.

and he was on a crap wage so i doubt he could afford the biggest ever doping program
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Re: Re:

14 Jun 2018 19:50

red_flanders wrote:
samhocking wrote:
dacooley wrote:drugs themselves are very cheap, but the knowledge of how, when, in what quantity to inject and which masking agents to use is a completely different cost level.


I saw an advert from Team Sky in one of the medical job sites for Team Sky Doctor. January to August, 30-60 hours per week. Was up to £200k/year. Looking into Football, head team doctors seem to get from £100-200k depending on experience.
If you add Froome for his first Vuelta breakthrough was probably earning less than Freeman, it would only take £2-400k to take a nobody to a GT winner and so I well within reach of all World Tour teams?
Obviously we don't know black market rates for illegal doctors, but Freeman did come from Football, not cycling originally.


Again, Sky were unquestionably surprised by Froome in his Vuelta breakthrough. He wasn't even on the original roster. It's incredibly unlikely that Sky funded whatever Froome was doing at the time.


Not sure I’m 100% on board with this version of events. It is true Brailsford was shopping Froome around and about to offload him but Froome was in London & Manchester with Brailsford between Poland and the Vuelta. I suspect Froome had convinced SDB for inclusion in the team because he was ‘responding well’ or had a new set of numbers to reveal. At that time the goal was to get Wiggins on the podium but he hadn’t raced in seven weeks at that time.

Just another version in the ever complex world of Dawg :confused:
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Re: Re:

14 Jun 2018 21:46

thehog wrote:
red_flanders wrote:
samhocking wrote:
dacooley wrote:drugs themselves are very cheap, but the knowledge of how, when, in what quantity to inject and which masking agents to use is a completely different cost level.


I saw an advert from Team Sky in one of the medical job sites for Team Sky Doctor. January to August, 30-60 hours per week. Was up to £200k/year. Looking into Football, head team doctors seem to get from £100-200k depending on experience.
If you add Froome for his first Vuelta breakthrough was probably earning less than Freeman, it would only take £2-400k to take a nobody to a GT winner and so I well within reach of all World Tour teams?
Obviously we don't know black market rates for illegal doctors, but Freeman did come from Football, not cycling originally.


Again, Sky were unquestionably surprised by Froome in his Vuelta breakthrough. He wasn't even on the original roster. It's incredibly unlikely that Sky funded whatever Froome was doing at the time.


Not sure I’m 100% on board with this version of events. It is true Brailsford was shopping Froome around and about to offload him but Froome was in London & Manchester with Brailsford between Poland and the Vuelta. I suspect Froome had convinced SDB for inclusion in the team because he was ‘responding well’ or had a new set of numbers to reveal. At that time the goal was to get Wiggins on the podium but he hadn’t raced in seven weeks at that time.

Just another version in the ever complex world of Dawg :confused:


The shock was apparent when Froome started killing everyone, even amongst that pack of liars. And the scratch of the other rider would have had to have been fake. I think you're adjusting facts to fit a conclusion.
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15 Jun 2018 10:13

Do you think Froome will go for the tripple if he wins the Tour? That would be really taking the piss if he wins all 3 in one year
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