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Dave Brailsford - cycling genius

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Re: Dave Brailsford - cycling genius

24 Jul 2018 03:00

Brailsford is scum, one of the nastiest, low life pieces of work ever to inhabit pro cycling, which is saying something. Even without all the other evidence, you only have to appraise SDB to know that here is a man who obviously operates a doping program.

This time he has mangaged to display xenophobia, arrogance, hubris and callousness all at once.

The Tour gets more, let's call them 'assertive' fans, largely not because they're French, but because as the big one it gets more fans from all over the world, many of whom have particular agendas coupled to their support and attendance, or who are more casual fans who may be there more for the spectacle than the riders.

Certainly, to generalise very broadly, the French on the whole have a different, and must be said somewhat selective, attitude to doping than the Italians or Spanish. But that attitude is entirely valid, despite the hypocrisy inherent in it. It must also be acknowledged that the Tour is a national event in France, a source of pride and worldwide attention that the Giro and Vuelta can never be.

So when Sky come along and disrespect the sport and the race and flaunt their power and blatant lies for all to see, it's only to be expected that the people respond to that.

Dumoulin isn't French, nor does he race for a French team. But if he somehow beats the Sky duo and wins the Tour, he'll be a hero in France. It's not nationality that matters Dave, it's how you conduct yourself.
Mamil
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Re: Re:

24 Jul 2018 07:10

thehog wrote:
poupou wrote:
yaco wrote:
Stop deflecting blame - Watching the TV coverage the booing is clearly heard, especially at stage finishes and podium ceremonies - Never heard this at the Giro or the Vuelta.

Maybe because on Giro we were still waiting the result of the AAF, and for the Vuelta, we have to wait.

Different time, different situation, maybe DB didn't undestand that too.


:p

Image

I would say also, it’s not that hot in May, you’re not getting the crowds getting drunk for 3 days straight. Generally at the Giro you can roll up on the day and see the stage. The Tour, no chance for stage like d’Huez.


Actually, you could do exactly that this year...the crowds on the Alpe were much smaller this year, you could ride up and down the road until about a hour before the race came through, that's unheard of in previous years. But the atmosphere was toxic, not just the usual boisterous drunken tomfoolery, the worst i've experienced in a decade of following GT's live.....and this hasn't just been contained to the marquee Alpine stages :cry:
brownbobby
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Re: Re:

24 Jul 2018 08:17

brownbobby wrote:Actually, you could do exactly that this year...the crowds on the Alpe were much smaller this year, you could ride up and down the road until about a hour before the race came through, that's unheard of in previous years. But the atmosphere was toxic, not just the usual boisterous drunken tomfoolery, the worst i've experienced in a decade of following GT's live.....and this hasn't just been contained to the marquee Alpine stages :cry:


Interesting. Curious to hear a bit more of your first-hand perspective from the road-sides. When you say 'toxic' what sort of things are you talking about - hatred of Sky, general discontent with the state/management of the sport, complete disregard for rider safety (Sky or otherwise) and willingness/desire to get as close as possible, or just general bad behaviour?
Mamil
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24 Jul 2018 08:57

It's visible from the TV screens that crowds are down and it was never more obvious than on Alpe d'huez. Interest in the tour has significantly waned since Sky have turned it into a borefest with their grinding style and general poor behaviour and arrogance. And that's before any of the doping problems that have surfaced over the last 2 years.

Dave Brailsford is simply upset that people have not swallowed his style of bullshit whole. The fact that he played the Xenophobic card is simply another diversionary tactic since he knows his audience is now almost an exclusively UK based jingoistic one. Most rational cycling fans are not prepared to continue to have their intelligence insulted and it should be a source of pride that spectators at the TDF (many of whom are not even French) have a lower propensity for bullshit than at other events.
ontheroad
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Re: Dave Brailsford - cycling genius

24 Jul 2018 09:15

ontheroad wrote:It's visible from the TV screens that crowds are down and it was never more obvious than on Alpe d'huez. Interest in the tour has significantly waned since Sky have turned it into a borefest with their grinding style and general poor behaviour and arrogance. And that's before any of the doping problems that have surfaced over the last 2 years.

Dave Brailsford is simply upset that people have not swallowed his style of bullshit whole. The fact that he played the Xenophobic card is simply another diversionary tactic since he knows his audience is now almost an exclusively UK based jingoistic one. Most rational cycling fans are not prepared to continue to have their intelligence insulted and it should be a source of pride that spectators at the TDF (many of whom are not even French) have a lower propensity for bullshit than at other events.



I'd agree the crowds are the smallest i've ever seen on Alpe Duez this year. I wasn't at that stage in person, but have been on a few others this year and numbers seem much less. In the Roubaix stage you could even drive your car on some of the section two hours before they were so empty.
How much of that is down to Sky and how much of it is down to ASO, UCI & WADA d!cking about with Froome's case decision i'm not sure though. Sky basically followed the rules to the letter on this, so i'd argue the damage is not really anything Sky had control of preventing. They likely didn't leak the AAF and they didn't clear Froome either, so is peoples issue really with those that govern the sport and anti-doping? The fact Lappartient stated in no uncertain terms Froome had the money to buy his innocence was perhaps the most damaging aspect of the case, but for some reason nobody is really very angry at UCI or WADA at least on the road side for allowing that to be possible if it is true and no evidence a guilty verdict was made innocent either. Where are the UCI & WADA suck Froome's b*lls for $$ flags? Everyone just wants it to be a Sky problem only so they can't win it seems, which it clearly isn't, rather than dealing with the core issue which a lack of believable anti-doping power and weak/gullible/corrupt UCI governance issue, perceived or real beyond social media banter.
samhocking
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24 Jul 2018 10:06

Cycling is/was a sport of individuals, free thinkers and iconoclasts. Sky is an arm of Murdoch's 'evil empire' which is seen as the antithesis of all that, and Brailsford is a most dreadful mouthpiece. He's embarrassing in the way he is pandering to the golf club Brexity mentality with his anti-European xenophobic drivel (supporters of which have become part of post 2012 cycling in the UK). Thats why people are hating on Sky and not UCI/WADA - I think you are smart enough to see this, you can still be saved from the dark side :)
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24 Jul 2018 10:45

SDB would do well to join moscon on next diversity awareness / temper tantrum course

Mark L
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24 Jul 2018 10:58

I don't believe for a moment, changing the sponsor to Team Cuddly and replacing Brailsford with Mr Nice Guy would make any difference if Team Cuddly still dominated Tour de France each year still. People's primary issue is clearly not about doping, because other teams have riders failing anti-doping, riders racing in other teams after being banned, managed by teams of staff with clear doping violations all across WT and basically accepted, so to focus on Sky alone it completely hypocritical just because they said they would win without doing anything illegal. All teams even those with their long list clearly evident they are not clean say they race clean too, so it's nonsense mostly.
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Re:

24 Jul 2018 11:08

samhocking wrote:I don't believe for a moment, changing the sponsor to Team Cuddly and replacing Brailsford with Mr Nice Guy would make any difference if Team Cuddly still dominated Tour de France each year still. People's primary issue is clearly not about doping, because other teams have riders failing anti-doping, riders racing in other teams after being banned, managed by teams of staff with clear doping violations all across WT and basically accepted, so to focus on Sky alone it completely hypocritical just because they said they would win without doing anything illegal. All teams even those with their long list clearly evident they are not clean say they race clean too, so it's nonsense mostly.



Regardless of the name of the team, racial slurs and culture divisions have no place in sport or society. You know this and Dave Brailsford should know this.
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Re: Re:

24 Jul 2018 11:17

poupou wrote:
yaco wrote:
Stop deflecting blame - Watching the TV coverage the booing is clearly heard, especially at stage finishes and podium ceremonies - Never heard this at the Giro or the Vuelta.

Maybe because on Giro we were still waiting the result of the AAF, and for the Vuelta, we have to wait.

Different time, different situation, maybe DB didn't undestand that too.


I'll let you continue to be divorced from reality which suits your agenda.
yaco
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Re: Dave Brailsford - cycling genius

24 Jul 2018 11:25

Mamil wrote:Brailsford is scum, one of the nastiest, low life pieces of work ever to inhabit pro cycling, which is saying something. Even without all the other evidence, you only have to appraise SDB to know that here is a man who obviously operates a doping program.

This time he has mangaged to display xenophobia, arrogance, hubris and callousness all at once.

The Tour gets more, let's call them 'assertive' fans, largely not because they're French, but because as the big one it gets more fans from all over the world, many of whom have particular agendas coupled to their support and attendance, or who are more casual fans who may be there more for the spectacle than the riders.

Certainly, to generalise very broadly, the French on the whole have a different, and must be said somewhat selective, attitude to doping than the Italians or Spanish. But that attitude is entirely valid, despite the hypocrisy inherent in it. It must also be acknowledged that the Tour is a national event in France, a source of pride and worldwide attention that the Giro and Vuelta can never be.

So when Sky come along and disrespect the sport and the race and flaunt their power and blatant lies for all to see, it's only to be expected that the people respond to that.

Dumoulin isn't French, nor does he race for a French team. But if he somehow beats the Sky duo and wins the Tour, he'll be a hero in France. It's not nationality that matters Dave, it's how you conduct yourself.


Most of what you post is well considered and correct - Sky flaunt their arrogance every day of the week but the behaviour of the French public is disproportionate and many levels above the Giro and the Vuelta - Of course some poster's agenda will support this type of behaviour - The people who lose out are the riders who don't get to enjoy the pleasures of riding the TDF.
yaco
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Re: Re:

24 Jul 2018 11:25

yaco wrote:
poupou wrote:
yaco wrote:
Stop deflecting blame - Watching the TV coverage the booing is clearly heard, especially at stage finishes and podium ceremonies - Never heard this at the Giro or the Vuelta.

Maybe because on Giro we were still waiting the result of the AAF, and for the Vuelta, we have to wait.

Different time, different situation, maybe DB didn't undestand that too.


I'll let you continue to be divorced from reality which suits your agenda.


It’s actually fact that the AAF was still outstanding at the Giro. Vengi voiced the same displeasure that he had been manipulated by Brailsford and Froome.
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Re: Re:

24 Jul 2018 11:47

Mamil wrote:
brownbobby wrote:Actually, you could do exactly that this year...the crowds on the Alpe were much smaller this year, you could ride up and down the road until about a hour before the race came through, that's unheard of in previous years. But the atmosphere was toxic, not just the usual boisterous drunken tomfoolery, the worst i've experienced in a decade of following GT's live.....and this hasn't just been contained to the marquee Alpine stages :cry:


Interesting. Curious to hear a bit more of your first-hand perspective from the road-sides. When you say 'toxic' what sort of things are you talking about - hatred of Sky, general discontent with the state/management of the sport, complete disregard for rider safety (Sky or otherwise) and willingness/desire to get as close as possible, or just general bad behaviour?


Wether or not a general discontent with the state of the sport and its management was a contributing factor i don't know, but any ill feelings i sensed definetely manifested and most overtly displayed as a hatred of Sky.

There's always been banter and what i refer to as pantomime booing of certain teams, most notably Sky of course in recent years, but i've never minded that, it's always in my experience been good natured and added to the atmosphere.

This year it felt different. 'Hatred' is perhaps the right description for it, admittedly it was only a small minority who probably felt this strongly, but it was contagious. I asked one guy who weirdly was wearing full Sky kit (2012 Adidas vintage) and booing very loudly at everything linked to Sky that came past us on the road...he just shrugged his shoulders and said "everyone's doing it this year". So it seems like the serious minority have successfully spread contagion to form a mob.

I spoke to several fellow Brits and they all had similar feelings of being uncomfortable at times in France this year. Certainly displaying support for Sky, which many have done proudly and without fear in recent years despite the inevitable 'banter' was something they were much less comfortable with this year.

The great thing about following the Tour has always been the mix of nationalities and the atmosphere on the big mountain stages and in the towns before and after. This year at times the atmosphere was more akin to the tribal nature of football in years gone by. Don't get me wrong, i didn't exactly fear for my life if i said the wrong thing or showed support for the wrong team at the wrong time, but i was definetely more inclined to stick with my own group of friends and fellow countrymen than i ever have been before at the Tour.

Cycling shouldn't be like this ever....more to the point cycling fans shouldn't be like this.
brownbobby
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Re: Re:

24 Jul 2018 11:56

thehog wrote:
yaco wrote:
poupou wrote:
yaco wrote:
Stop deflecting blame - Watching the TV coverage the booing is clearly heard, especially at stage finishes and podium ceremonies - Never heard this at the Giro or the Vuelta.

Maybe because on Giro we were still waiting the result of the AAF, and for the Vuelta, we have to wait.

Different time, different situation, maybe DB didn't undestand that too.


I'll let you continue to be divorced from reality which suits your agenda.


It’s actually fact that the AAF was still outstanding at the Giro. Vengi voiced the same displeasure that he had been manipulated by Brailsford and Froome.


Did the crowd at the Giro boo Sky like in the TDF ? Did the crowd at the Vuelta boo Sky in previous editions - This is a simple concept which some CHOOSE to make complex.
yaco
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24 Jul 2018 12:06

Been going over for a few stages of Tour most years since 1984. Brownbobby is right there is a different atmosphere that's switched on this year at the road side which I would say didn't exist so angrily as before. There's always been an element of nationalistic pride to team and rider support and booing in am ore jovial sense, but it just feels a bit more sinister now. This year was the first time I felt like a West Ham fan accidentally walking into a Milwall pub and felt maybe I shouldn't be wearing my West Ham top lol! I think it will blow over a bit if Thomas win this year, or even better if Doumilin wins. I'm hoping for Bardet.
Last edited by samhocking on 24 Jul 2018 12:07, edited 1 time in total.
samhocking
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Re: Re:

24 Jul 2018 12:06

yaco wrote:
thehog wrote:
yaco wrote:
poupou wrote:
yaco wrote:
Stop deflecting blame - Watching the TV coverage the booing is clearly heard, especially at stage finishes and podium ceremonies - Never heard this at the Giro or the Vuelta.

Maybe because on Giro we were still waiting the result of the AAF, and for the Vuelta, we have to wait.

Different time, different situation, maybe DB didn't undestand that too.


I'll let you continue to be divorced from reality which suits your agenda.


It’s actually fact that the AAF was still outstanding at the Giro. Vengi voiced the same displeasure that he had been manipulated by Brailsford and Froome.


Did the crowd at the Giro boo Sky like in the TDF ? Did the crowd at the Vuelta boo Sky in previous editions - This is a simple concept which some CHOOSE to make complex.


Froome tested positive at the Vuelta, we didn’t find out till afterwards that he was using PEDs. Giro is generally cold, not as many people on the mountains. The TDF is in the holiday season so people from all around Europe and the world. And just prior to the Tour Froome got off from his positive in suspect circumstances hence some of the anger, some believe Froome cheated. Cheaters get booed. Life.
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24 Jul 2018 12:08

I've not been this year, but I wouldn't underestimate the dislike of Sky in previous years. The twice I went in the last three years, I've experienced people being polite to me by the road when they know I am English, then when the realise i don't support Sky, shaking my hand, inviting me to lunch and spending the afternoon slagging off the team in my presence. Not just French fans, either. Australians, Dutch, the odd Brit as well. (Worth pointing out that everyone thought they were dodgy as hell, and over-dominant/arrogant). This year sounds like it's been a lot more visceral, with less polite tolerance, but the dislike has been there for many years IMO. There's a lot in the years of making the race dull versus only this year showing up at the Giro.

As for SDB - I think he's the kind of man who is greedy for everything - the wins, the money, respect AND the adulation. What probably annoys him more than anything is that whilst he has managed 1 and 2, adulation and respect is the exact opposite of what they've created. That's why I think they've tried to manufacture events that model epic wins - Froome's lone exploits in the Giro, his downhill attack in the TdF etc.. The trouble is, there's always the whiff that these are contrived or deliberately put on, rather than an impulsive decision of an attacking rider. I've always found that the public has a very strong gut feeling about things like this. The more Sky and SDB try to control the narrative, the further they are from the adulation and respect SDB craves, IMO.
Last edited by Electress on 24 Jul 2018 12:10, edited 1 time in total.
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24 Jul 2018 12:10

So really it's a WADA and UCI governance issue at its heart Hog, not a Froome/Sky issue as such. Plenty of riders have been banned and riding Tour lets not forget and plenty got off their offence too. No problems for those riders though? Is it because omerta is preferred to perceived lies about racing without breaking the rules which all teams say they do anyway omerta or lies.
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Re:

24 Jul 2018 12:34

samhocking wrote:So really it's a WADA and UCI governance issue at its heart Hog, not a Froome/Sky issue as such.


Just a UCI issue. The UCI still has total authority over sanctioning an athlete. This is the case for all Olympic sports. The IOC formed WADA to act as a kind of complicated system that hides the fact federations still permit doping. WADA is only a standards body.

However, WADA's standards are actually quite good. The science used in blood testing is quite good. It's that the system is ignored by federations when they feel the need. And then the federations that keep telling the lies about WADA's authority.
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Re: Re:

24 Jul 2018 12:57

yaco wrote:
thehog wrote:
yaco wrote:
poupou wrote:
yaco wrote:
Stop deflecting blame - Watching the TV coverage the booing is clearly heard, especially at stage finishes and podium ceremonies - Never heard this at the Giro or the Vuelta.

Maybe because on Giro we were still waiting the result of the AAF, and for the Vuelta, we have to wait.

Different time, different situation, maybe DB didn't undestand that too.


I'll let you continue to be divorced from reality which suits your agenda.


It’s actually fact that the AAF was still outstanding at the Giro. Vengi voiced the same displeasure that he had been manipulated by Brailsford and Froome.


Did the crowd at the Giro boo Sky like in the TDF ? Did the crowd at the Vuelta boo Sky in previous editions - This is a simple concept which some CHOOSE to make complex.


I distinctly remember Froome getting booed at Jafferau as he approached the finish line. The crowds are more sparse and less tourists congregate at the Giro but make no mistake there were definitely boo's.
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