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Doping in XC skiing

The Clinic is the only place on Cyclingnews where you can discuss doping-related issues. Ask questions, discuss positives or improvements to procedures.

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Re: Doping in XC skiing

12 Jan 2019 20:40

To frenchfry:

Just as I thought, you came up with the predictable answer. What have they been caught doing, exactly? It's all one man's (he's living in California now) words, apparently, 'allegedly.' The Canadian lawyer is just that, a lawyer. He's there for the money. CAS cleared the majority of the athletes. People like Ustiugov and Shipulin were not allowed to go to Pyeongchang for no reason. Neither WADA nor the IOC ever gave an explanation.

To your assumption that no other country has been involved in mass doping (with the assumption that the Russians did as you say):

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/exum-claims-large-scale-cover-up-of-doping-positives/

https://www.nytimes.com/2003/04/17/sports/olympics-anti-doping-official-says-us-covered-up.html

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2003/apr/24/athletics.duncanmackay

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2003-04-18/exum-names-lewis-fernandez-in-doping-cover-up/1838520

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/lewis-a-drug-cheat-documents-suggest-cover-up-20030419-gdvk9s.html

https://abcnews.go.com/Sports/story?id=100883&page=1

And how about something more recent?

https://www.insidethegames.biz/articles/1064426/italy-and-athletics-top-list-of-countries-and-sports-with-most-doping-cases-in-2016


No, doping doesn't really bother me, I am a spectator, I've followed anything from xc, biathlon to track and field to the NFL, MLB, all these sports have been rife with doping..what bothers me are the double standards and the hypocrisy. If we truly want a 'clean' sport (whatever that means with all the TUE's and exemptions these days) then we have to have a zero tolerance policy and treat everyone the same.

There is a probability, perhaps a high probability that Loginov is doping. If that is the case, then there is no way that guys like Fourcade or Boe aren't doping. This isn't 'whataboutism' or something like that, it's reality. It's like back in 2006, when Armstrong's rivals were falling left and right, and people thought 'no, Lance can't be doping.' Oh really? He was just magically better than the other 19 guys in the top 20 that were found to have doped? You'd have to go far down the list of the GC in those years to find someone that maybe, perhaps, somehow, was clean. Fourcade at his peak hardly looked out of breath. He attacked whenever he felt like it and shot fast and was accurate. Even when he missed shots he would still win races, like Boe is today. The older Boe wasn't far off in 2011-2014 when he was more consistent.
BullsFan22
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Re: Doping in XC skiing

12 Jan 2019 20:43

Bambino, I apologize for mentioning the Finns in respect to Myllylla. Of course I know what happened to him. It's sad.

Not sure how I am using propaganda though.
BullsFan22
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Re: Doping in XC skiing

12 Jan 2019 20:46

BullsFan22 wrote:Bambino, I apologize for mentioning the Finns in respect to Myllylla. Of course I know what happened to him. It's sad.



Classy to apologies.
bambino
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12 Jan 2019 21:20

Let's put it in a slightly wider context.

As I recall, at the time Loginov blamed his positive on a prostate infection treatment. I believe that the decision is up on the IBU website, so anyone interested in the case can read up on additional details.

Since 2008, apart from Loginov at least 4 other biathletes from Russia tested positive for EPO with Iourieva managing to do it twice. I will not mention the ongoing biological passport cases (and irregular values of these athletes were known about for years), other ADRVs, various other rumors about that period.

It is correct that Loginov owes nobody nothing, but at the same time given his BS explanation and very likely systematic doping culture in Russian biathlon at the time taking a bigger responsibility for the positive by admitting that the explanation was BS would probably at least help a little to change the attitudes.

Of course the obvious answer why Loginov would not apologize is because the people involved in his doping are still part of the biathlon system and any deviation from the accidental contamination (even for EPO!) / Western conspiracy / anyone elses fault but ours script is not allowed.

So again, he owes nothing, but he has not even done a small step that is within his power to be considered more worthy of trust.
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12 Jan 2019 21:30

It's hilarious that mass doping in Russia is an 'assumption'

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_stripped_Olympic_medals
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12 Jan 2019 21:31

Bullsfan,

I never affirmed that Fourcade is clean (how could I know), but the difference with Loginov is that he has never been caught if he is. If anyone thinks his performances warrant suspicion, fine with me.

As to Russian state doping, you appear to give a lot of weight to conspiracy theories. Thats fine but I don't buy into it. There is a lot more there than you admit.

I thought about the US coverup when i wrote my previous post, and probably shouldn't have let it slide. The difference was, I believe, that the doping wasn't institutional but the coverup was. Never have I said the Russians are the only bad guys, it just so happens they are in the news a lot lately. Why won't they share their lab records if they have nothing to hide?

Complicated subject, but as I have often said here i don't think it is unreasonable to suspect the Russians as a group. At least for now, and I hope that changes someday soon.
"This comment qualifies as a shining example of the "anyone who disagrees with my perspective is a dolt" leftist, intolerant mish-mash of shallow thinking." - Scott SoCal
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Re: Doping in XC skiing

12 Jan 2019 23:37

BullsFan22 wrote:There is a probability, perhaps a high probability that Loginov is doping. If that is the case, then there is no way that guys like Fourcade or Boe aren't doping. This isn't 'whataboutism' or something like that, it's reality.
No, it simply isn't. You are deluding yourself if you believe it's that easy.
kingjr
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Re:

12 Jan 2019 23:41

roundabout wrote:Since 2008, apart from Loginov at least 4 other biathletes from Russia tested positive for EPO with Iourieva managing to do it twice. I will not mention the ongoing biological passport cases (and irregular values of these athletes were known about for years), other ADRVs, various other rumors about that period.

From the actual international team, there's Iourieva, Iaroschenko, Starykh and... that's it, isn't it? I know a few guys tested positive for EPO from the national calendar but the others from international competition I am aware of are for different things I think - Burdyga for Carphedon and Latypov for meldonium, for example. I'm pretty sure EPO doesn't figure in the Sochi stuff, nor with Ustyugov/Sleptsova from Vancouver either.

It is correct that Loginov owes nobody nothing, but at the same time given his BS explanation and very likely systematic doping culture in Russian biathlon at the time taking a bigger responsibility for the positive by admitting that the explanation was BS would probably at least help a little to change the attitudes.

Of course the obvious answer why Loginov would not apologize is because the people involved in his doping are still part of the biathlon system and any deviation from the accidental contamination (even for EPO!) / Western conspiracy / anyone elses fault but ours script is not allowed.

So again, he owes nothing, but he has not even done a small step that is within his power to be considered more worthy of trust.

Well, he's between a rock and a hard place and while that is of his own making, so we don't have to sympathize with him, we can at least understand the position he's in. Russia as a whole feels singled out, being shamed and fingers pointed at it from all corners, and often from some very hypocritical (hello all those representing the USA) or very preachy or self-righteous (hello Hamza, hello Samuelsson, hello Fourcade) corners, and there is a very significant pride issue in the narrative that has been being pushed. Russia is not unreasonable in thinking that they are being singled out for blame and hung out to dry, painted as the dirty dastardly dopers of the world, allowing the façade of clean sport to be presented while not rocking the boat since most people already associated Russians with doping long before the Sochi allegations. But at the same time, it is hard to complain about a witchhunt when you are in fact a witch.

Loginov has been very humble and kept things on-point in interviews and discussions thus far this season, because ultimately he doesn't want to be followed with the same questions from now until eternity, and he wants to get on with his racing, for better or worse. He will perhaps always be seen as a criminal, a cheat and an outsider in the biathlon world so long as he doesn't provide some kind of formal apology to the rest of the international biathlon community, but at the same time, if he was to issue some kind of public "mea culpa" message and metaphorically get on his hands and knees in front of the likes of Fourcade and beg their forgiveness, it would be absolute PR suicide at home as well. That is perhaps why he has palmed off journalists asking him about Fourcade's comments by saying that he would like to talk that through in person with Fourcade, rather than conversing through television cameras without speaking to one another.

Let us not forget that Martin was the one who was apparently so offended by doping that he took to social media to protest the SBR wishing Loginov a happy birthday (how dare a man who has doped have a pleasant day!). And he's so offended by doping that he cannot speak of or to them, unless a microphone is present.
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14 Jan 2019 16:23

Two Norwegian juniors received growth hormone treatments. Apparently the treatments being administered in a hospital makes it alright.

Hopefully these treatments also control asthma, which is epedemic among Norwegian x-country skiers

http://www.ski-nordique.net/un-traitement-hormonal-pour-deux-grandes-espoirs-norvegiennes.6181346-72348.html
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14 Jan 2019 17:56

the norwegian media is again at it - 'we have nothing to hide'.

like after sundby who said the same many times while insisting that wada review his case in absolute secret or johaug had nothing to hide when her doc lost memory and mind as to how he approved an anabolic steroid and she lied about always reading the labels.

so they had nothing to hide until it became publicly known the 2 starlets were chemically grown. the swedish reaction is so far very reserved.

in essence, what the press release tell us is this, 'if our 2 biggest young starlets didn't grow into stars naturally and fast enough we are going to help them chemically with growth hormones.... and thanks wada we had found the legal loop holes via a tue process'.

if they have nothing to hide why refuse any further comments to the questions which are certainly to follow ?
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Re: Doping in XC skiing

20 Jan 2019 17:42

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=703oK0SyGOc

For those of you who speak some German. A fairly interesting docuentary about Johannes Dürr and his Doping. Caught some fire in German as i stated that some of his blood Doping actually happened in Germany with the help of Germany, though he didn't mention any names.
Also, 4 years ago Dürr was a legit medal candidat. No he's trying to qualify for Seefeld but finishes in the likes of 50th place in the Alpencup. Just Shows what Kind of difference Doping makes. And, that no one who finishes up front in xc siing and Biathlon can do so without juicing. The difference it makes is simply way too big.
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20 Jan 2019 18:29

Dürr was someone that appeared out of nowhere at the TdS - having been 40+ placed in world cup in the few races he had run previously, for example 45th in a Davos 30k about 4 minutes behind the winner. He did have some almost-success in juniors but was not a "megatalent". As he was able to reach the top, at least when it comes to climbing ability, with EPO, it indicates to me that the more talented skiers were not at least supercharging at the time.

No, it's the recent revelations about the Norwegian juniors and their medical treatment that feels like a more important piece of the puzzle. The Norwegian sports system feels more and more like DDR. If these supertalents have had this kind of treatment, how many more non-famous kids have had something similar to try and correct whatever deficiency in their athletic potential, and to make it possible for them to train harder from a young age? What about the nutrition, "vitamins", so on... do the kids even know for sure what they are receiving?

So I am starting to suspect the Norwegian dominance is built on a large cohort of young skiers that are largely competing clean, with just some TUE shenaninigans. However, their physiques were built up during their school years with who knows what shady techniques until they reached the "megatalent" level and can compete and dominate without doping (million+ euro wax and support teams are of course also very helpful in converting the athletes performance potential into results).

I admit that this conspiracy theory is a bit out there, and a lot of it is just based on a squicky gut feeling whenever some Norwegian team doctor or medical expert is shown in public.
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20 Jan 2019 18:39

...and after today's Mass Start in Ruhpolding, Russia's Evgeniya Pavlova lit the blue touchpaper. It seems there's been some unhappiness back in Russia about her loss of form after such a good start to the season and that she's now been under-strength or missed races sick twice in the space of a month, and today she hit all 20 targets but finished over 3 minutes down. Obviously heat of the moment post-race interviews are not a good place for diplomacy, especially when, as Pavlova has been, you've been struggling to sleep and been ill, but she hit back, saying that the athletes aren't made of iron and, more crucially for the themes of discussion here, that "I'm not from a country that gets given TUEs". She goes on to ask why other countries' athletes aren't expected to apologise to their own on behalf of people who've doped.

For context, Evgeniya Pavlova is mentioned in the McLaren report, she was a 20-year-old junior at the time, and like 11 others who were part of the team for the Presque Isle Junior World Championships in 2014, her name appears on one date, for one test, which came back negative. She beat Fialková in the Universiade a year later, but has only just been given the opportunity to do World Cup racing this year as she is from an unfashionable area and has not been popular with the team bigwigs, so she also could speak with a level of resentment of the way the team have treated her (she is also critical in the interview of the coaches for making her do races she was in no fit state to do). But it's certainly a warts-and-all interview...
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Re:

20 Jan 2019 18:59

alternator wrote:Dürr was someone that appeared out of nowhere at the TdS - having been 40+ placed in world cup in the few races he had run previously, for example 45th in a Davos 30k about 4 minutes behind the winner. He did have some almost-success in juniors but was not a "megatalent". As he was able to reach the top, at least when it comes to climbing ability, with EPO, it indicates to me that the more talented skiers were not at least supercharging at the time.

No, it's the recent revelations about the Norwegian juniors and their medical treatment that feels like a more important piece of the puzzle. The Norwegian sports system feels more and more like DDR. If these supertalents have had this kind of treatment, how many more non-famous kids have had something similar to try and correct whatever deficiency in their athletic potential, and to make it possible for them to train harder from a young age? What about the nutrition, "vitamins", so on... do the kids even know for sure what they are receiving?

So I am starting to suspect the Norwegian dominance is built on a large cohort of young skiers that are largely competing clean, with just some TUE shenaninigans. However, their physiques were built up during their school years with who knows what shady techniques until they reached the "megatalent" level and can compete and dominate without doping (million+ euro wax and support teams are of course also very helpful in converting the athletes performance potential into results).

I admit that this conspiracy theory is a bit out there, and a lot of it is just based on a squicky gut feeling whenever some Norwegian team doctor or medical expert is shown in public.


Well Duerr did manage to beat guys like Cologna and Hellner, who were 1-2 years older than him" at World Junior Championchips. So he most definitely did have some Talent.
He mentions Ruhpolding as a place "were shady things go on" and as the place were he got an Infusion for the very first time.
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Re: Doping in XC skiing

21 Jan 2019 12:18

Bavarianrider wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=703oK0SyGOc

For those of you who speak some German. A fairly interesting docuentary about Johannes Dürr and his Doping. Caught some fire in German as i stated that some of his blood Doping actually happened in Germany with the help of Germany, though he didn't mention any names.
Also, 4 years ago Dürr was a legit medal candidat. No he's trying to qualify for Seefeld but finishes in the likes of 50th place in the Alpencup. Just Shows what Kind of difference Doping makes. And, that no one who finishes up front in xc siing and Biathlon can do so without juicing. The difference it makes is simply way too big.

There is an English version on their homepage:
https://www.sportschau.de/doping/video-doping-top-secret-confession--inside-the-mind-of-a-doper-100.html
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Re: Doping in XC skiing

21 Jan 2019 19:23

olhell wrote:
Bavarianrider wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=703oK0SyGOc

For those of you who speak some German. A fairly interesting docuentary about Johannes Dürr and his Doping. Caught some fire in German as i stated that some of his blood Doping actually happened in Germany with the help of Germany, though he didn't mention any names.
Also, 4 years ago Dürr was a legit medal candidat. No he's trying to qualify for Seefeld but finishes in the likes of 50th place in the Alpencup. Just Shows what Kind of difference Doping makes. And, that no one who finishes up front in xc siing and Biathlon can do so without juicing. The difference it makes is simply way too big.

There is an English version on their homepage:
https://www.sportschau.de/doping/video-doping-top-secret-confession--inside-the-mind-of-a-doper-100.html

Thanks, quite interesting. Understood a lot more from the English version.
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22 Jan 2019 16:06

Just a few thoughts on Fossesholm, who sometimes in Norwegian media is described as the new Bjoergen and by others as the new Johaug, since the Norwegian Ski Federation announced last week that she has been treated with growth hormones from December 2014 until September 2017.

Her father says to the Finnish television: The MDs recommended the treatment. We could not foresee that she would become a top athlete.
https://svenska.yle.fi/artikel/2019/01/15/norska-supertalangen-ger-svar-pa-tal-det-finns-alltid-nagon-som-ar-missunnsam

Well, she seemed to do just fine already in January 2015, one month into the treatment:
https://www.bygdeposten.no/helene-marie-fossesholm/vestfossen/modum/helene-tar-bakkene-med-et-smil/s/5-10-5371

Notable is also that her father Øivind Foss is a well known MD and head of a Pharmaceutical company. He was trained at Norwegian University of Sport and Physical Education.
https://no.linkedin.com/in/%C3%B8ivind-foss-88347659
Her mother is also MD, a specialist.
https://www.legehus.no/leger/dr-gunhild-therese-fossesholm/

So, I guess they might not only have relied on other MDs recommendations.
Btw, her father is also her trainer.

No critique whatsoever to the medical treatment if it was necessary. But the core question is if you should be allowed to compete on the highest level with this kind of treatment.
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Re: Doping in XC skiing

22 Jan 2019 17:40

"IOC Disappointed." Hahaha. Disappointed that their lies couldn't hold up in a legitimate court of law.

http://aroundtherings.com/site/A__75518/Title__IOC-Disappointed-at-Decision-of-Swiss-Federal-Tribunal/292/Articles


If I were Legkov and the other 27 (and more to come), I'd sue.

Wonder what McLaren, Seppelt, Rodchenkov and the IOC will come up with next? Seppelt now maybe going a different direction...
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Re:

23 Jan 2019 07:07

Discgear wrote:Just a few thoughts on Fossesholm, who sometimes in Norwegian media is described as the new Bjoergen and by others as the new Johaug, since the Norwegian Ski Federation announced last week that she has been treated with growth hormones from December 2014 until September 2017.

Her father says to the Finnish television: The MDs recommended the treatment. We could not foresee that she would become a top athlete.
https://svenska.yle.fi/artikel/2019/01/15/norska-supertalangen-ger-svar-pa-tal-det-finns-alltid-nagon-som-ar-missunnsam

Well, she seemed to do just fine already in January 2015, one month into the treatment:
https://www.bygdeposten.no/helene-marie-fossesholm/vestfossen/modum/helene-tar-bakkene-med-et-smil/s/5-10-5371

Notable is also that her father Øivind Foss is a well known MD and head of a Pharmaceutical company. He was trained at Norwegian University of Sport and Physical Education.
https://no.linkedin.com/in/%C3%B8ivind-foss-88347659
Her mother is also MD, a specialist.
https://www.legehus.no/leger/dr-gunhild-therese-fossesholm/

So, I guess they might not only have relied on other MDs recommendations.
Btw, her father is also her trainer.

No critique whatsoever to the medical treatment if it was necessary. But the core question is if you should be allowed to compete on the highest level with this kind of treatment.

I agree. Does anyone knows how tall is she? Thanks.
Kokoso
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Re: Re:

23 Jan 2019 09:46

Kokoso wrote:
Discgear wrote:Just a few thoughts on Fossesholm, who sometimes in Norwegian media is described as the new Bjoergen and by others as the new Johaug, since the Norwegian Ski Federation announced last week that she has been treated with growth hormones from December 2014 until September 2017.

Her father says to the Finnish television: The MDs recommended the treatment. We could not foresee that she would become a top athlete.
https://svenska.yle.fi/artikel/2019/01/15/norska-supertalangen-ger-svar-pa-tal-det-finns-alltid-nagon-som-ar-missunnsam

Well, she seemed to do just fine already in January 2015, one month into the treatment:
https://www.bygdeposten.no/helene-marie-fossesholm/vestfossen/modum/helene-tar-bakkene-med-et-smil/s/5-10-5371

Notable is also that her father Øivind Foss is a well known MD and head of a Pharmaceutical company. He was trained at Norwegian University of Sport and Physical Education.
https://no.linkedin.com/in/%C3%B8ivind-foss-88347659
Her mother is also MD, a specialist.
https://www.legehus.no/leger/dr-gunhild-therese-fossesholm/

So, I guess they might not only have relied on other MDs recommendations.
Btw, her father is also her trainer.

No critique whatsoever to the medical treatment if it was necessary. But the core question is if you should be allowed to compete on the highest level with this kind of treatment.

I agree. Does anyone knows how tall is she? Thanks.


She is 151cm.. She was 137,5cm when they started the medications when she was 13y. I think this treatment was ok since she is still so short.
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