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[Green Edge] Shayne Bannan, Gerry Ryan and an Aussie Pro Team for 2012?

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Yesterday 11:25

You wouldn't think any rider will pencil in his next year diary until he knows what the parcours for the races are?
User avatar claude cat
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Yesterday 16:47

I don't think Im being harsh. Orica has done well on a couple of occasions, trying to set something up for Yates, but he still exclusive follow wheels. For 2 straight GTs, I have at no point seen him in the wind, let alone make an aggressive move of some sorts.

Its disappointing that he is that passive, his brother seems to be the polar-opposite when it comes to aggression.
"This is the Tour that will determine whether I can drink espresso at the Garda lake the rest of my life"
User avatar Valv.Piti
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Re:

Yesterday 16:59

Valv.Piti wrote:I don't think Im being harsh. Orica has done well on a couple of occasions, trying to set something up for Yates, but he still exclusive follow wheels. For 2 straight GTs, I have at no point seen him in the wind, let alone make an aggressive move of some sorts.

Its disappointing that he is that passive, his brother seems to be the polar-opposite when it comes to aggression.

Simon Yates is a great racer. He got 3 great wins by attacking from pretty far out (Fayence, GP Miguel Indurain, Leysin) while in at least 2 of them he wasn't the strongest (Fayence, Leysin). Not being the strongest and winning races by attacking and taking risks make me like him a lot.
Forever The Best
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Re:

Yesterday 17:02

Valv.Piti wrote:I don't think Im being harsh. Orica has done well on a couple of occasions, trying to set something up for Yates, but he still exclusive follow wheels. For 2 straight GTs, I have at no point seen him in the wind, let alone make an aggressive move of some sorts.

Its disappointing that he is that passive, his brother seems to be the polar-opposite when it comes to aggression.


Well, he DID make one aggressive move at TDF on the stage 7 to Lac de Payolle where the 1KM to go inflateable arch collapsed on him but at this Giro I think the only time he DID stick his nose to the front of the lead pack was on the Bergamo finish when he opened up his sprint a bit too early. Having said that, this was very much an attritional GT and he put himself into deficit early by having to burn so many matches on Blockhaus.

On evidence to date, Simon does appear the more daring of the two but then again, the one GT where he has raced for GC was under Stephens. I think Adam may be marginally the stronger TTer and it may be the case that Chaves may now be superior in that aspect to both (going off his 2016). If, as I suspect, he rides the Vuelta (most probably alongside Chaves), it WILL be interesting to see how he responds to Stephens' direction.
dirkprovin
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Re:

Yesterday 17:20

claude cat wrote:You wouldn't think any rider will pencil in his next year diary until he knows what the parcours for the races are?


Orica will not take Ewan to a GT if there is a TTT - There is one at the 2017 Vuelta which will anyway have a strong GT focus while allegedly the 2018 TDF will feature a TTT.
yaco
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Re: Re:

Yesterday 17:28

Forever The Best wrote:
Valv.Piti wrote:I don't think Im being harsh. Orica has done well on a couple of occasions, trying to set something up for Yates, but he still exclusive follow wheels. For 2 straight GTs, I have at no point seen him in the wind, let alone make an aggressive move of some sorts.

Its disappointing that he is that passive, his brother seems to be the polar-opposite when it comes to aggression.

Simon Yates is a great racer. He got 3 great wins by attacking from pretty far out (Fayence, GP Miguel Indurain, Leysin) while in at least 2 of them he wasn't the strongest (Fayence, Leysin). Not being the strongest and winning races by attacking and taking risks make me like him a lot.


That Leysin stage win was an awesome performance - Attacking the GC peleton on the second last climb to bridge over to the breakaway then holding the wheel of a rampant Porte on the last climb and winning the stage.
yaco
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Yesterday 17:31

Keukeliere wins the GC at the Tour of Belgium while riding for the Belgium team. He'll be feeling great as a Belgium winning his NT.
yaco
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Re: Re:

Today 12:40

yaco wrote:Orica will not take Ewan to a GT if there is a TTT - There is one at the 2017 Vuelta which will anyway have a strong GT focus while allegedly the 2018 TDF will feature a TTT.


Therein lies another key reason why he is an increasingly problematic selection of future GTs; he is "labour intensive" for HIS goals and offers SFA in return utility to the team.

yaco wrote:Keukeliere wins the GC at the Tour of Belgium while riding for the Belgium team. He'll be feeling great as a Belgium winning his NT.


Orica has traditionally allowed some of their riders "leave passes" to ride in certain domestic events; Cort - Tour of Denmark, the Canadians in Tour de Beuce. Nice to see him pick up a win and not against "stiffs" either. He should also probably be seen as another young international signing (signed age 22/23) who the team has brought on and has developed into a very valuable asset both with regards to personal results and his overall team utility.

Bar some exceptional $$ offer from elsewhere, or an unexpected fall-out with the team, I see him being re-signed. He has raced the Vuelta the past 2 seasons and finished 2016 particularly strongly but given his recent altitude camp, it's looking like he may be going to the Tour.

Giro stg 21 thoughts
- Holding onto white with only a 30 odd second margin in an ITT against Jungels was always going to be a forlorn hope .... and so it played out. Yates died pretty badly coming home.
- Hepburn rode an excellent TT. Had he not crashed 600m from the finish (lets say that cost 20-25sec), he'd have been well inside the top10 for the stage.
-Tuft was his usual self; realistically no longer the TTer he once was but still a very powerful engine
-Another excellent ride from Plaza inside the top 25 for the stage which cemented a top 30 GC finish (plus some WT points), capping off a very impressive GT. Would have to think that he will be back for the Vuelta.
dirkprovin
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Re:

Today 15:48

Valv.Piti wrote:I don't think Im being harsh. Orica has done well on a couple of occasions, trying to set something up for Yates, but he still exclusive follow wheels. For 2 straight GTs, I have at no point seen him in the wind, let alone make an aggressive move of some sorts.

Its disappointing that he is that passive, his brother seems to be the polar-opposite when it comes to aggression.


Glad I am not the only one.

Hearing Matt White bait the Aussie media with how hard done by his team was on stage 9 was quite rich and funny! :D

For me, after a second and third in grand tours last year with Chaves, a 10th from memory for Simon at the Vuelta and a 4th place whilst never making ripples at the Tour WHILST adding Roman Kreuziger who has finished 5th at the Tour, makes Orica a GC riding power house.

What do they do?

They split this amazing force into 2 groups!

Personally, I think they are NUTS. Anything can happen at the Tour. Chaves needed a team mate to attack and somehow dislodge Contador at last years Vuelta. That was one of those incidents on a day, almost nobody could expect. It's normally Contador pulling those moves.

Now consider them against Sky and Froome at the Tour. I think it's madness.

IMO, the whole team should have been at the Giro and/or Vuelta aiming for a GT win with Chaves.

But we'll see how the Tour goes. It would be great to see Chaves get a podium, or even shockingly win the Tour, but I don't think he will. The bases are loaded really heavily this year. When Chaves needed to take turns in the Giro, like Adam Yates, he either couldn't or refused to in the final stages.

That is the point where a rider needs to step in and do that little bit more, like Bardet did last year to make sure they get the podium spot. I'd have had the team aim for any GT win BUT the Tour this year and then shifted to the Tour for 2018.

They have the squad to do so and be a serious climbing threat if they want to...
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Today 15:52

IMO, the whole team should have been at the Giro and/or Vuelta aiming for a GT win with Chaves.


They're not allowed to do that. Only 9 riders. :p
Aka The Ginger One.
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Re:

Today 16:00

RedheadDane wrote:I'll never understand why they didn't keep Simon in the Giro.
2x Yates in the Giro.
Chaves + S. Yates in the Tour.
Chaves + A. Yates in the Vuelta.
2-2-2, seems like a pretty even way to do it...

Now it seems like they're going with a 1-2-3 approach... with their original plan of course being the 2-1-3 approach.


Everything written there, is pure madness.

The Yates are about the level of Thomas, Landa, Henao, Nieve and Poels.

Actually, Sky have more climbing domestiques to help their big dog, Froome.

Orica have both Yates AND Kreuziger. Balance that equation out...Sky win. Sky can dictate terms all Tour long to Orica and they'll do what? Hold on!

Great plan.

They should have done what Sky did, sent everyone to ONE GT and focused exclusively on winning that.

But they split their eggs and thought it would work! Against Sky at the Tour!! :lol: :lol:

That's called being delusional. It won't work. Unless something odd occurs.

Movistar have tried for YEARS to beat Sky at the Tour and they're the ONLY team who have gotten close. Actually they are the only team to put time into Froome in the mountains.

That means, until Orica get the result, they should have done what Dumoulin has achieved and focused on the GT Froome is not racing to win.

I am really surprised people on here, are agreeing with Orica's blindness. I think it's really, really, really dumb.

Chaves had a second and third in 2 GT's last year. They should be going for the win in the Giro or Vuelta and not an outside podium chance at the Tour.
User avatar Galic Ho
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Re:

Today 16:06

RedheadDane wrote:
IMO, the whole team should have been at the Giro and/or Vuelta aiming for a GT win with Chaves.


They're not allowed to do that. Only 9 riders. :p


Chaves, 2x Yates and Kreuziger are 4 riders.

There are no rules WHO you can take to the grand tours. If they are legally allowed to race, you make 4 spots for them on your squad. 9 riders total leaves 5 more.

Orica have a lot of good flat stage domestiques. You can push an eschelon in northern France with that. Yay, you drop one or 2 GC riders. Froome likely won't get dropped though.

It's a nice theory to race the way they are planning if Chris Froome and the Sky train are not racing. But they are.

Orica should have sent a stage hunting team to the Tour and sent a strong climbing arsenal to the Giro.

It was wide open for them to really step up. What are they, scared of Quintana? Nibali?

Who on earth thinks Chris Froome is not the favourite for the Tour de France? He didn't once lose out last year.

Woet Poels was stronger, after setting the tempo on the climbs, than every other racer other than Porte and Froome! That should scare people. Racing the Tour is madness IMO.

Don't want to win a GT, then by all means, aim for the Tour!

PS: Orica splitting their team into sprinting support for Ewan, not demanding he finish the darn race, like last years Vuelta and then trying for GC, is wasted resources. They MUST split their aims and goals and focus on ONE only per GT. Not both. It's ludicrous. Cav left Sky after they refused to back him...and he won 3 stages that year he rode with them!

Split the squad and focus on GC for ONE GT, stages for another, the TTT in the one that allows it, plus perhaps a KOM jersey for a Yates rider. That's clever. Right now, it's just dumb.

Last years Tour stage win was proof of this. It took 3 Orica riders to beat ONE Peter Sagan who did 50% of the work in a 7 man breakaway. Then what happened after that stage? Peter Sagan kept going.

People have to accept, that winning at the Tour is REALLY hard. There is no shame in banking all your eggs on the Giro and Vuelta rather than the Tour and going for gold there. Once you've gotten that sorted, THEN by all means have a crack at the Tour.

Orica historically get a stage win at the Tour and maybe a good TTT. Anything MORE is BONUS and a SUPER EFFORT. That's how hard the Tour is. SO why not expend that energy and get the bigger win overall at the Giro or Vuelta?

Pride is the only thing I can think of. Glamour of the gold in France...
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Today 16:13

I KEEP FORGETTING ABOUT KREUZIGER BEING ON THE TEAM! :rolleyes: :o

But my previous post was mostly a reference to the fact that that way all three of them - Yateses and Chaves - could've done two GTs, and there could've been two of them in each GT (does that make sense?)
Of course, throwing Kreuziger into the mix completely changes the dynamic of everything...



Galic Ho wrote:
RedheadDane wrote:
IMO, the whole team should have been at the Giro and/or Vuelta aiming for a GT win with Chaves.


They're not allowed to do that. Only 9 riders. :p


Chaves, 2x Yates and Kreuziger are 4 riders.


The whole team. As in all 26 riders.
Since when are the Yateses, Chaves and Kreuziger the whole team?


What's the proper way to write 'Yates' in plural, btw?
Aka The Ginger One.
User avatar RedheadDane
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Re: Re:

Today 16:17

Galic Ho wrote:
Valv.Piti wrote:I don't think Im being harsh. Orica has done well on a couple of occasions, trying to set something up for Yates, but he still exclusive follow wheels. For 2 straight GTs, I have at no point seen him in the wind, let alone make an aggressive move of some sorts.

Its disappointing that he is that passive, his brother seems to be the polar-opposite when it comes to aggression.


Glad I am not the only one.

Hearing Matt White bait the Aussie media with how hard done by his team was on stage 9 was quite rich and funny! :D

For me, after a second and third in grand tours last year with Chaves, a 10th from memory for Simon at the Vuelta and a 4th place whilst never making ripples at the Tour WHILST adding Roman Kreuziger who has finished 5th at the Tour, makes Orica a GC riding power house.

What do they do?

They split this amazing force into 2 groups!

Personally, I think they are NUTS. Anything can happen at the Tour. Chaves needed a team mate to attack and somehow dislodge Contador at last years Vuelta. That was one of those incidents on a day, almost nobody could expect. It's normally Contador pulling those moves.

Now consider them against Sky and Froome at the Tour. I think it's madness.

IMO, the whole team should have been at the Giro and/or Vuelta aiming for a GT win with Chaves.

But we'll see how the Tour goes. It would be great to see Chaves get a podium, or even shockingly win the Tour, but I don't think he will. The bases are loaded really heavily this year. When Chaves needed to take turns in the Giro, like Adam Yates, he either couldn't or refused to in the final stages.

That is the point where a rider needs to step in and do that little bit more, like Bardet did last year to make sure they get the podium spot. I'd have had the team aim for any GT win BUT the Tour this year and then shifted to the Tour for 2018.

They have the squad to do so and be a serious climbing threat if they want to...


Quite a bit that I can agree with, some less so.

Completely concur withe you re White's "pity party".

SY was 6th at 2016 Vuelta, not 10th. Orica pulled off a set piece manouver on st14 (with 3 riders in the early break) to springboard him up the standings.

Slightly disagree with you re Chaves 3rd at Vuelta; yes they DID have a key lieutenant up the road in Howson and they did springboard him off the front but he still had to have the legs to pull out that margin on Contador. Re 2016 Giro, he DID run out of gas on the final 2 stages but he was still daring enough to take the risk of going from a long way out on stg 19.

Over the long run, I DO think that the Giro & Vuelta will more often suit his riding characteristics than the Tour but this year (with considerably less ITT than normal) was probably as good a chance as any of giving him a shot whereas the amount of ITT in this recent Giro was probably not in his favour. We'll know after the Tour whether it was a poor call or not.

Could the Vuelta be Orica's best chance of a GT podium this year ? You could be right. I suspect Chaves will go into the Tour distinctly "underdone"/short on race miles so I suspect SY may be the real GC man with Chaves perhaps finishing the Tour strongly.

I think the early season talk of all 3 GC men to the Vuelta is White (again) talking out of his blowhole. What WILL however be interesting is the actual composition of both the Tour team & the Vuelta as its unlikely the key mountain support will be able to back up from Tour to Vuelta. Howson is Chaves' preferred right hand man and I'd actually prefer him going to the Vuelta but its likely he's going to the Tour. I would expect Plaza to return for the Vuelta but Kreuziger unlikely. Verona COULD return for Vuelta but I'd probably prefer Haig unless he's a surprise inclusion for the Tour.
dirkprovin
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Today 16:27

White has confirmed that A.Yates will ride the Vuelta - This is a non-negotiable as they want him to ride well for a whole season - Chaves will certainly ride the Vuelta as the TDF is training - Possibly S.Yates could miss the Vuelta if it's a tough TDF - There is nothing wrong with the strategy of each of the 3 GC guy's having one main target.
yaco
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Re:

Today 16:32

RedheadDane wrote:I KEEP FORGETTING ABOUT KREUZIGER BEING ON THE TEAM! :rolleyes: :o

But my previous post was mostly a reference to the fact that that way all three of them - Yateses and Chaves - could've done two GTs, and there could've been two of them in each GT (does that make sense?)
Of course, throwing Kreuziger into the mix completely changes the dynamic of everything...



Galic Ho wrote:
RedheadDane wrote:
IMO, the whole team should have been at the Giro and/or Vuelta aiming for a GT win with Chaves.


They're not allowed to do that. Only 9 riders. :p


Chaves, 2x Yates and Kreuziger are 4 riders.


The whole team. As in all 26 riders.
Since when are the Yateses, Chaves and Kreuziger the whole team?


What's the proper way to write 'Yates' in plural, btw?


Yateses. Plural form, is it not?

Chaves is a great guy. Orica have had some really well targetted and executed stage wins at the Tour.

Simon Gerrans winning stage 4 in I think it was 2015 and the mailot jaune that went with it. That's fantastic. A great result for any team.

But without a prologue in recent tours, the mailot jaune is normally going to a sprinter early on. Kittel and Cavendish tend to win the first few sprints. Orica should IMO, use the Tour for stage wins. Just load it with strategies on breakaways, sprints etc.

Naturally, my plan involved NOT getting rid of Michael Matthews. I wonder what his view is now that Sunweb have a grand tour winner in their ranks?

In understood the pun on sending the WHOLE team. I meant just load all your bases with either GC riders, or send the stage hunting and time trial strong squad to a grand tour.

Have the Yates boys aim for a high Dauphine result...peak them for that, or Romandie respectively, get a GOOD result there and then aim for them to support Chaves. Kreuziger was good at Liege, for 2 seasons now he was making moves in the break. Orica always seem to have good flow at the Vuelta.

Perhaps they will load their bases at the Vuelta and just use the Tour to warm Chaves up.

But trying to take Sky on...if Movistar and Quintana couldn't dislodge Froome, expecting Chaves to beat Nairo AND Froome is asking too much IMO. Plus I really like the guy...he needs to win as many races and smile for fans.

Want him to win...but don't agree with the strategy unless they're redirecting resources to the Vuelta.
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Today 16:44

I believe "The Yatseys" is the accepted plural.
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Re: Re:

Today 16:51

dirkprovin wrote:
Quite a bit that I can agree with, some less so.

Completely concur withe you re White's "pity party".

SY was 6th at 2016 Vuelta, not 10th. Orica pulled off a set piece manouver on st14 (with 3 riders in the early break) to springboard him up the standings.

Slightly disagree with you re Chaves 3rd at Vuelta; yes they DID have a key lieutenant up the road in Howson and they did springboard him off the front but he still had to have the legs to pull out that margin on Contador. Re 2016 Giro, he DID run out of gas on the final 2 stages but he was still daring enough to take the risk of going from a long way out on stg 19.

Over the long run, I DO think that the Giro & Vuelta will more often suit his riding characteristics than the Tour but this year (with considerably less ITT than normal) was probably as good a chance as any of giving him a shot whereas the amount of ITT in this recent Giro was probably not in his favour. We'll know after the Tour whether it was a poor call or not.

Could the Vuelta be Orica's best chance of a GT podium this year ? You could be right. I suspect Chaves will go into the Tour distinctly "underdone"/short on race miles so I suspect SY may be the real GC man with Chaves perhaps finishing the Tour strongly.

I think the early season talk of all 3 GC men to the Vuelta is White (again) talking out of his blowhole. What WILL however be interesting is the actual composition of both the Tour team & the Vuelta as its unlikely the key mountain support will be able to back up from Tour to Vuelta. Howson is Chaves' preferred right hand man and I'd actually prefer him going to the Vuelta but its likely he's going to the Tour. I would expect Plaza to return for the Vuelta but Kreuziger unlikely. Verona COULD return for Vuelta but I'd probably prefer Haig unless he's a surprise inclusion for the Tour.


Matt White knows the Aussie press, particularly the SBS crew, will lap up what he feeds them.

So as long as nobody challenges him on some of his hypocrisy, nothing will occur. I remember several stages where Orica intentionally pushed when a rival had bad luck occur.

It was to be expected.

Thanks for the correction about Simon Yates. I thought it was 10th.

I wasn't bagging Chaves springboard move in the Vuelta to dislodge Contador. It's actually complement. Normally Contador does those moves, especially in the Vuelta. Tuning in that stage, to see Chaves with a helper punishing Contador, was a big shock.

That is all my point was. Without that tactical nous, he'd have finished the race in 4th. Which is really good. But when sending him to the Tour, against Contador, Froome, Porte, Valverde, Bardet and a Nairo Quintana who could be argued may IMPROVE at the Tour, is pushing your luck a bit too far IMO.

yaco wrote:White has confirmed that A.Yates will ride the Vuelta - This is a non-negotiable as they want him to ride well for a whole season - Chaves will certainly ride the Vuelta as the TDF is training - Possibly S.Yates could miss the Vuelta if it's a tough TDF - There is nothing wrong with the strategy of each of the 3 GC guy's having one main target.


We will see at the end of the year. If they don't manage a podium spot, then based on last years results, that's proof enough it is a bad plan. The logical progression after a second and third in one season for a rider, is to AIM for the GT win. That means having everyone on a squad, support that.

Which for me, granted how Sky actually do support Froome with everyone, even the guys given the Giro go to the Tour to ride for Froome, means sending both Yates and Kreuziger to whichever GT Chaves wants to peak and aim for the win in. For me, that means NOT trying to win the Tour.

Let's say Sky, has a 2014. Porte in theory becomes the favourite for the Tour based on this seasons form. Or perhaps Valverde, if I were to be so bold. Then, Orica would look smart sending Chaves there. But that's a HUGE what if. It's unlikely to occur. Froome has been so solid at the Tour.

You may think a few top 10 places are great for Orica, but when they could win a GT with Chaves, or finish second to someone who is really, really, really good and have lots of options to attack with by loading their squad, sorry, but to not do so it dumb.

The end result is the Yates get a good top 10 result and Chaves maybe gets a podium spot or close to it.

Contador this year gets a Bauke Mollema to help him.

Froome is the same as last year. Everyone of his helpers at the Giro, kind of fell short. He'll have a train once more.

Porte gets total focus at the Tour. He should be stronger. He looks stronger.

Movistar always have something to prove at the Tour. Valverde is the best domestique climber in the world. I'd take him over any other GC rider to have at my side.

Orica can easily load their bases with climbers, then have lots of attack options and be a threat. At the very least, it allow Chaves to just follow wheels and then make moves if Orica use the Yates and Kreuziger to attack. That's the point. Constantly be looking to attack and gain time over other GC riders, rather than just following wheels like Adam Yates has done for 2 consecutive grand tours.

It's nice, but lets be honest. Who here thinks Woet Poels last year couldn't have gotten a solid top 10 performance if he didn't work for Froome? Porte finally got his top 5 when not working for Froome. That's the point. Someone has to sacrifice their chances of a high finish.

Give them a stage race as consolation. Full support there. It's not hard to manage.

Orica actually have options. A lot of GC teams would love to have their support and riders results.

Then numbers literally demand they take a dig at a GT: 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 6th across 3 GT's. Yeah, they should be going for the WIN and number 1.
User avatar Galic Ho
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Re: Re:

Today 17:49

Galic Ho wrote:
dirkprovin wrote:
Quite a bit that I can agree with, some less so.

Completely concur withe you re White's "pity party".

SY was 6th at 2016 Vuelta, not 10th. Orica pulled off a set piece manouver on st14 (with 3 riders in the early break) to springboard him up the standings.

Slightly disagree with you re Chaves 3rd at Vuelta; yes they DID have a key lieutenant up the road in Howson and they did springboard him off the front but he still had to have the legs to pull out that margin on Contador. Re 2016 Giro, he DID run out of gas on the final 2 stages but he was still daring enough to take the risk of going from a long way out on stg 19.

Over the long run, I DO think that the Giro & Vuelta will more often suit his riding characteristics than the Tour but this year (with considerably less ITT than normal) was probably as good a chance as any of giving him a shot whereas the amount of ITT in this recent Giro was probably not in his favour. We'll know after the Tour whether it was a poor call or not.

Could the Vuelta be Orica's best chance of a GT podium this year ? You could be right. I suspect Chaves will go into the Tour distinctly "underdone"/short on race miles so I suspect SY may be the real GC man with Chaves perhaps finishing the Tour strongly.

I think the early season talk of all 3 GC men to the Vuelta is White (again) talking out of his blowhole. What WILL however be interesting is the actual composition of both the Tour team & the Vuelta as its unlikely the key mountain support will be able to back up from Tour to Vuelta. Howson is Chaves' preferred right hand man and I'd actually prefer him going to the Vuelta but its likely he's going to the Tour. I would expect Plaza to return for the Vuelta but Kreuziger unlikely. Verona COULD return for Vuelta but I'd probably prefer Haig unless he's a surprise inclusion for the Tour.


Matt White knows the Aussie press, particularly the SBS crew, will lap up what he feeds them.

So as long as nobody challenges him on some of his hypocrisy, nothing will occur. I remember several stages where Orica intentionally pushed when a rival had bad luck occur.

It was to be expected.

Thanks for the correction about Simon Yates. I thought it was 10th.

I wasn't bagging Chaves springboard move in the Vuelta to dislodge Contador. It's actually complement. Normally Contador does those moves, especially in the Vuelta. Tuning in that stage, to see Chaves with a helper punishing Contador, was a big shock.

That is all my point was. Without that tactical nous, he'd have finished the race in 4th. Which is really good. But when sending him to the Tour, against Contador, Froome, Porte, Valverde, Bardet and a Nairo Quintana who could be argued may IMPROVE at the Tour, is pushing your luck a bit too far IMO.

yaco wrote:White has confirmed that A.Yates will ride the Vuelta - This is a non-negotiable as they want him to ride well for a whole season - Chaves will certainly ride the Vuelta as the TDF is training - Possibly S.Yates could miss the Vuelta if it's a tough TDF - There is nothing wrong with the strategy of each of the 3 GC guy's having one main target.


We will see at the end of the year. If they don't manage a podium spot, then based on last years results, that's proof enough it is a bad plan. The logical progression after a second and third in one season for a rider, is to AIM for the GT win. That means having everyone on a squad, support that.

Which for me, granted how Sky actually do support Froome with everyone, even the guys given the Giro go to the Tour to ride for Froome, means sending both Yates and Kreuziger to whichever GT Chaves wants to peak and aim for the win in. For me, that means NOT trying to win the Tour.

Let's say Sky, has a 2014. Porte in theory becomes the favourite for the Tour based on this seasons form. Or perhaps Valverde, if I were to be so bold. Then, Orica would look smart sending Chaves there. But that's a HUGE what if. It's unlikely to occur. Froome has been so solid at the Tour.

You may think a few top 10 places are great for Orica, but when they could win a GT with Chaves, or finish second to someone who is really, really, really good and have lots of options to attack with by loading their squad, sorry, but to not do so it dumb.

The end result is the Yates get a good top 10 result and Chaves maybe gets a podium spot or close to it.

Contador this year gets a Bauke Mollema to help him.

Froome is the same as last year. Everyone of his helpers at the Giro, kind of fell short. He'll have a train once more.

Porte gets total focus at the Tour. He should be stronger. He looks stronger.

Movistar always have something to prove at the Tour. Valverde is the best domestique climber in the world. I'd take him over any other GC rider to have at my side.

Orica can easily load their bases with climbers, then have lots of attack options and be a threat. At the very least, it allow Chaves to just follow wheels and then make moves if Orica use the Yates and Kreuziger to attack. That's the point. Constantly be looking to attack and gain time over other GC riders, rather than just following wheels like Adam Yates has done for 2 consecutive grand tours.

It's nice, but lets be honest. Who here thinks Woet Poels last year couldn't have gotten a solid top 10 performance if he didn't work for Froome? Porte finally got his top 5 when not working for Froome. That's the point. Someone has to sacrifice their chances of a high finish.

Give them a stage race as consolation. Full support there. It's not hard to manage.

Orica actually have options. A lot of GC teams would love to have their support and riders results.

Then numbers literally demand they take a dig at a GT: 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 6th across 3 GT's. Yeah, they should be going for the WIN and number 1.


Think we're on the same page re White; I think he does possess some qualities that are valuable to the development of the team but I'm increasingly less "sold" on his capacities as a race DS. The tactical brains behind Orica's successful 'set pieces' at last years Vuelta was Stephens who appears to have the closest connection amongst the team hierarchy with Chaves.

Fair point re what/whom Chaves will be up against at this year's Tour. Froome - goes without saying, Quintana - agree that he should be stronger at the Tour, Bardet - agree he's certainly a podium contender, Valverde - tick, Contador - I will admit to a sly liking for old Bertie the Bounder but whilst he cannot be underestimated, I'm thinking he might be hard pressed to make the podium; Porte - sorry but no sale, a great super dom but hasn't the brains/makes panic mistakes under pressure & his TT is uneven and frankly over-rated.

Fully agree that UK Postal's "Modus Opperandi" is "all in" for the Tour whereas they can vary between haphazard to a rabble at the other 2 GTs. I think that having all 3 GC men finish top 6 last year DID essentially lock Orica into giving each a chance to lead at one GT; tricky to manage and its an open question as to whether Chaves' knee problems have simplified or complicated the issue. DO I think Orica made a mistake by altering what worked last year for Chaves by bringing out to race early season in AUS .... yes, I do, wonderful PR but not sure it was worth it. The only positive is that they've made the mistake in the first year of his new contract so hopefully they won't screw it up in future !!

Don't see AY backing up for the Tour seeing how he was running on empty at the end of the Giro. Quite agree with the scenario you plotted for Orica at the Tour. It would not surprise to see them allow one or two of the puncheurs/rouleurs to have a freelance at some finishes with a stage win being a pleasant bonus. Sending either Kreuziger or Howson up the road for a set-piece would not surprise. Much will depend on whether UK Postal will see them as a particular danger to themselves or actually be happy to see some of their prime competition fighting amongst themselves ?

As I said earlier, I think Vuelta probably is their best shot and, especially given Chaves' interrupted season, this is what I'd have him peaking for. Realistically he's not going to be quite there at the start of the Tour so swing the main thrust towards SY for that one and whatever Chaves can produce later in the Tour will be a pleasant bonus.

You make the statement that many teams would like to have the climbing talent that Orica possesses and that seems a fair point. The issue is actually getting that potential to gell into successful units. We know that Chaves has amazing rapport with many who've raced with him and Howson looks to be developing into an excellent super-dom for the mountains who could in future maybe place highly at one weekers in his own right. Plaza is a veteran but was very valuable at this recent Giro. Haig has looked a very promising climbing talent. Kreuziger's CV speaks for itself but as yet, its unclear whether he can/will gell with either Chaves or either Yates. Verona --- jury still out.

What I DO hope they have learned from this Giro is that they CANNOT support both a GC campaign plus a bunch sprinter who requires real support. A classics type quick man (ala Matthews) is certainly still a viable selection as they require less support and do offer support utility to the GC in return. FWIW, what probably was the sealer for Matthews leaving was his desire to pursue the green jersey rather than just stage wins; the latter was still viable with Orica whereas the former meant a dilution of resources. My one worry is that I'm not sure that its yet registered with Mr White that Ewan is becoming an increasingly poor fit.
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Re:

38 minutes ago

SlickMongoose wrote:I believe "The Yatseys" is the accepted plural.


Sure sounds better than 'Yateses', which... sounds a bit too much like it's Gollum speaking.
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