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[Green Edge] Shayne Bannan, Gerry Ryan and an Aussie Pro Team for 2012?

A place to discuss all things related to current professional road races. Here, you can also touch on the latest news relating to professional road racing. A doping discussion free forum.

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Re: Re:

Yesterday 11:34

dirkprovin wrote:Sending Kreuziger up the road ? Not the worst idea but they may want to keep him alongside Yates for as long as possible. Other options could be Chaves or Howson

I guess Chaves is saving himself for the break. Kreuziger would be good option too and, as his fan, I'd like to see him in the break more than Chaves and Kreuziger deserves that more.

Howson? Why Howson? The guy has crap form at the Tour. He's useless at the mountains.
Kokoso
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Re: Re:

Yesterday 12:01

Kokoso wrote:
dirkprovin wrote:Sending Kreuziger up the road ? Not the worst idea but they may want to keep him alongside Yates for as long as possible. Other options could be Chaves or Howson

I guess Chaves is saving himself for the break. Kreuziger would be good option too and, as his fan, I'd like to see him in the break more than Chaves and Kreuziger deserves that more.

Howson? Why Howson? The guy has crap form at the Tour. He's useless at the mountains.


What is this business about "deserving this/deserving that" ? Team directors will make call with regards to what will best suit the team's ultimate goals for both the race and/or the stage. Whilst we can guess that their peak goal is to fully secure SY's White Jersey and GC top ten; nobody on these pages are privy to what the instructions may be for this stage.

Howson would be allowed in the break with absolutely zero question and Chaves was ultimately let go .... Kreuziger at 25th may be given slightly less leeway from those who may be wanting to ensure their top20 (and larger swag of WT points), silly as that may sound those points can be vital for WT teams lower in the point standings and for riders who may be going off contract. It may also be the case that Kreuziger's primary designated role for the Tour is to be Kreuziger's main man in the mountains. It may not be ..... I'm just putting forward an alternate viewpoint.

I do take issue with your remark that Howson is "useless in the mountains" as his record at last year's Giro & Vuelta clearly demonstrated this was not the case. Is he in poor form at this Tour or, given that Chaves is primarily riding for race miles going into the Vuelta, he may also be being "backed off" and told to ride with less intensity on many stages with the Vuelta in mind ? There is a case that can be made for either ..... he was clearly in sufficient form/condition to ride a long turn on the front of the peleton yesterday when the team was riding hard to set SY for the crosswind action.
dirkprovin
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Re: Re:

Yesterday 12:49

Kokoso wrote:
dirkprovin wrote:Sending Kreuziger up the road ? Not the worst idea but they may want to keep him alongside Yates for as long as possible. Other options could be Chaves or Howson

I guess Chaves is saving himself for the break. Kreuziger would be good option too and, as his fan, I'd like to see him in the break more than Chaves and Kreuziger deserves that more.

Howson? Why Howson? The guy has crap form at the Tour. He's useless at the mountains.


He's actually improved his climbing over the last couple of seasons, he may not have shown up much this Tour but to say he's useless in the mountains is simply not true.
This is Cocaine...This is Chloroform...In short we ride on Dynamite!
User avatar StryderHells
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Re: Re:

Yesterday 12:54

StryderHells wrote:
Kokoso wrote:
dirkprovin wrote:Sending Kreuziger up the road ? Not the worst idea but they may want to keep him alongside Yates for as long as possible. Other options could be Chaves or Howson

I guess Chaves is saving himself for the break. Kreuziger would be good option too and, as his fan, I'd like to see him in the break more than Chaves and Kreuziger deserves that more.

Howson? Why Howson? The guy has crap form at the Tour. He's useless at the mountains.


He's actually improved his climbing over the last couple of seasons, he may not have shown up much this Tour but to say he's useless in the mountains is simply not true.

Can you read? I said at the Tour and by that I mean this Tour.

He was decent at the rest of the season, but at the Tour, he's useless at mountains until now.
Kokoso
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Re: Re:

Yesterday 13:00

Kokoso wrote:
StryderHells wrote:
Kokoso wrote:
dirkprovin wrote:Sending Kreuziger up the road ? Not the worst idea but they may want to keep him alongside Yates for as long as possible. Other options could be Chaves or Howson

I guess Chaves is saving himself for the break. Kreuziger would be good option too and, as his fan, I'd like to see him in the break more than Chaves and Kreuziger deserves that more.

Howson? Why Howson? The guy has crap form at the Tour. He's useless at the mountains.


He's actually improved his climbing over the last couple of seasons, he may not have shown up much this Tour but to say he's useless in the mountains is simply not true.

Can you read? I said at the Tour and by that I mean this Tour.

He was decent at the rest of the season, but at the Tour, he's useless at mountains until now.


That may be what you intended to say, and we will now accept that to be the case but that is not how it reads. Being in two separate sentences they read as two separate statements with no clear connections to one another.
dirkprovin
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Re: Re:

Yesterday 13:05

Kokoso wrote:
StryderHells wrote:
Kokoso wrote:
dirkprovin wrote:Sending Kreuziger up the road ? Not the worst idea but they may want to keep him alongside Yates for as long as possible. Other options could be Chaves or Howson

I guess Chaves is saving himself for the break. Kreuziger would be good option too and, as his fan, I'd like to see him in the break more than Chaves and Kreuziger deserves that more.

Howson? Why Howson? The guy has crap form at the Tour. He's useless at the mountains.


He's actually improved his climbing over the last couple of seasons, he may not have shown up much this Tour but to say he's useless in the mountains is simply not true.

Can you read? I said at the Tour and by that I mean this Tour.

He was decent at the rest of the season, but at the Tour, he's useless at mountains until now.


Yes I can read which is why I responded the way I did, maybe if it read like this "Howson? Why Howson? The guy has crap form at the Tour and been useless in the mountains" then I would of agreed with you.
This is Cocaine...This is Chloroform...In short we ride on Dynamite!
User avatar StryderHells
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Yesterday 13:25

Interesting that Cort is out of Orica - I suspect Edmondson got the nod because he will be a better classics rider, though Cort is slightly quicker in a sprint. Of course with Trentin coming to Orica this boosts the classics squad - Orica never comments on transfer speculation so bank the Trentin rumours.

Interested to see how S.Yates goes in the next two stages - I doubt him in multi mountain stages - Wait and see.
yaco
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Re: Re:

Yesterday 13:34

dirkprovin wrote:
Kokoso wrote:
dirkprovin wrote:Sending Kreuziger up the road ? Not the worst idea but they may want to keep him alongside Yates for as long as possible. Other options could be Chaves or Howson

I guess Chaves is saving himself for the break. Kreuziger would be good option too and, as his fan, I'd like to see him in the break more than Chaves and Kreuziger deserves that more.

Howson? Why Howson? The guy has crap form at the Tour. He's useless at the mountains.

What is this business about "deserving this/deserving that" ?

That business is called one's opinion. As you have yours opininions, I have mine.
Team directors will make call with regards to what will best suit the team's ultimate goals for both the race and/or the stage.
Don't you say. I thought I will decide that, make call to the Orica DS and tell him "do this, don't do that" :D I've seen you speculate here who will take part on what race; and now you are talking this... You seem acting contradictory.
Whilst we can guess that their peak goal is to fully secure SY's White Jersey and GC top ten; nobody on these pages are privy to what the instructions may be for this stage.

Yep. What do you want to say by this? You could spare us this mentoring.
and Chaves was ultimately let go ....
yep, my guess was right.
Kreuziger's primary designated role for the Tour is to be Kreuziger's main man in the mountains.
I Agree with that 100% :D Anyway, only DS know what is riders role, right? ;)
It may not be ..... I'm just putting forward an alternate viewpoint.
You aren't. It has crossed my mind, too.
I do take issue with your remark that Howson is "useless in the mountains"as his record at last year's Giro & Vuelta clearly demonstrated this was not the case.
I was talking about this Tour. Record at ast year's Vuelta and Giro doesn't demonstrate he is not useless at the mountains at the Tour.[/quote]
Is he in poor form at this Tour or, given that Chaves is primarily riding for race miles going into the Vuelta, he may also be being "backed off" and told to ride with less intensity on many stages with the Vuelta in mind ? There is a case that can be made for either ..... he was clearly in sufficient form/condition to ride a long turn on the front of the peleton yesterday when the team was riding hard to set SY for the crosswind action.

Doesn't make a sense to me. Simon is often alone at the mountains, because (sadly) Kreuziger is pretty subpar, at least until now. Because of that I think if they had someone able to stay with Simon at the mountains, he would. On top of that, I guess team has enough moutain helpers for the Vuelta even without Howson.
People who are able to take long turn on the flat are often bad at mountains; proves nothing.
Kokoso
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Re: Re:

Yesterday 13:37

StryderHells wrote:
Kokoso wrote:
StryderHells wrote:
Kokoso wrote:
dirkprovin wrote:Sending Kreuziger up the road ? Not the worst idea but they may want to keep him alongside Yates for as long as possible. Other options could be Chaves or Howson

I guess Chaves is saving himself for the break. Kreuziger would be good option too and, as his fan, I'd like to see him in the break more than Chaves and Kreuziger deserves that more.

Howson? Why Howson? The guy has crap form at the Tour. He's useless at the mountains.


He's actually improved his climbing over the last couple of seasons, he may not have shown up much this Tour but to say he's useless in the mountains is simply not true.

Can you read? I said at the Tour and by that I mean this Tour.

He was decent at the rest of the season, but at the Tour, he's useless at mountains until now.


Yes I can read which is why I responded the way I did, maybe if it read like this "Howson? Why Howson? The guy has crap form at the Tour and been useless in the mountains" then I would of agreed with you.

It's pretty clear from the context that I meant Tourr IMHO. Dirkrpovin understood that. Anyway, glad you agree at the end.
Kokoso
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Yesterday 14:54

@Kokoso. Dirk read it the same way as I did "That may be what you intended to say, and we will now accept that to be the case but that is not how it reads. Being in two separate sentences they read as two separate statements with no clear connections to one another." but it doesn't matter and yes I do agree with you about Howson so we are on the same page now :)
This is Cocaine...This is Chloroform...In short we ride on Dynamite!
User avatar StryderHells
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Re:

Yesterday 15:42

yaco wrote:Interesting that Cort is out of Orica - I suspect Edmondson got the nod because he will be a better classics rider, though Cort is slightly quicker in a sprint. Of course with Trentin coming to Orica this boosts the classics squad - Orica never comments on transfer speculation so bank the Trentin rumours.



I wonder if they chose Edmondson over Cort or if Cort is getting other offers in which he gets more money and or more opportunities to ride for himself, he's shown enough for other teams to be interested in him. Trentin would be a big signing and a great addition to the classics squad.
This is Cocaine...This is Chloroform...In short we ride on Dynamite!
User avatar StryderHells
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Re:

Yesterday 15:50

yaco wrote:Interesting that Cort is out of Orica - I suspect Edmondson got the nod because he will be a better classics rider, though Cort is slightly quicker in a sprint. Of course with Trentin coming to Orica this boosts the classics squad - Orica never comments on transfer speculation so bank the Trentin rumours.

Interested to see how S.Yates goes in the next two stages - I doubt him in multi mountain stages - Wait and see.


On the surface, somewhat disappointing but then again, I suspect that he was always going to attract some significant market interest once he came off contract .... and he may've received an extremely attractive offer from elsewhere. As yet, he had not fully locked down a cobbles leader's role and whilst I forsee some reshuffling of personnel on that front, he still may've only been option B/C at many of those races.

Edmondson's excellent first full year should certainly see him given some advanced opportunities next season; however Cort's reported exit should not mean that Orica just automatically keeps Ewan ..... he's just completely incompatible with the path Orica seems to be pursueing. Trentin .... will be very interesting to see just where he fits in as regards racing program ..... and how he fits into an English speaking team. Gerrans departing; one assumes to retirement; comes as little surprise given his age and diminishing returns with crashes in recent years.

Yates .... certainly gave up some real time today yet neither did he completely fall in a heap. How it plays out tomorrow as regards the White Jersey will be interesting as Meintjes appears the better attritional survivor but he will also be banking on Yates really falling apart as Yates is the superior TTer.
dirkprovin
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Re: Re:

Yesterday 16:57

StryderHells wrote:
yaco wrote:Interesting that Cort is out of Orica - I suspect Edmondson got the nod because he will be a better classics rider, though Cort is slightly quicker in a sprint. Of course with Trentin coming to Orica this boosts the classics squad - Orica never comments on transfer speculation so bank the Trentin rumours.



I wonder if they chose Edmondson over Cort or if Cort is getting other offers in which he gets more money and or more opportunities to ride for himself, he's shown enough for other teams to be interested in him. Trentin would be a big signing and a great addition to the classics squad.


My guess it's more a case of keeping Keukeliere who is the rock of the classics squad and can also do jobs in GT's and getting Trentin who will be given a protected role at races like Gent Warelgem and KBK, while believing Edmondson can win a classic.
yaco
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Re: Re:

Yesterday 17:02

dirkprovin wrote:
yaco wrote:Interesting that Cort is out of Orica - I suspect Edmondson got the nod because he will be a better classics rider, though Cort is slightly quicker in a sprint. Of course with Trentin coming to Orica this boosts the classics squad - Orica never comments on transfer speculation so bank the Trentin rumours.

Interested to see how S.Yates goes in the next two stages - I doubt him in multi mountain stages - Wait and see.


On the surface, somewhat disappointing but then again, I suspect that he was always going to attract some significant market interest once he came off contract .... and he may've received an extremely attractive offer from elsewhere. As yet, he had not fully locked down a cobbles leader's role and whilst I forsee some reshuffling of personnel on that front, he still may've only been option B/C at many of those races.

Edmondson's excellent first full year should certainly see him given some advanced opportunities next season; however Cort's reported exit should not mean that Orica just automatically keeps Ewan ..... he's just completely incompatible with the path Orica seems to be pursueing. Trentin .... will be very interesting to see just where he fits in as regards racing program ..... and how he fits into an English speaking team. Gerrans departing; one assumes to retirement; comes as little surprise given his age and diminishing returns with crashes in recent years.

Yates .... certainly gave up some real time today yet neither did he completely fall in a heap. How it plays out tomorrow as regards the White Jersey will be interesting as Meintjes appears the better attritional survivor but he will also be banking on Yates really falling apart as Yates is the superior TTer.


Yates was a bit unlucky that he had no GC guy with him for the final 28kms, and he shipped half the 90 seconds in the last 6km which were flat - I suspect his best GT race will be the Vuelta which has shorter climbs.
yaco
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Re: Re:

Yesterday 17:15

yaco wrote:
StryderHells wrote:
yaco wrote:Interesting that Cort is out of Orica - I suspect Edmondson got the nod because he will be a better classics rider, though Cort is slightly quicker in a sprint. Of course with Trentin coming to Orica this boosts the classics squad - Orica never comments on transfer speculation so bank the Trentin rumours.



I wonder if they chose Edmondson over Cort or if Cort is getting other offers in which he gets more money and or more opportunities to ride for himself, he's shown enough for other teams to be interested in him. Trentin would be a big signing and a great addition to the classics squad.


My guess it's more a case of keeping Keukeliere who is the rock of the classics squad and can also do jobs in GT's and getting Trentin who will be given a protected role at races like Gent Warelgem and KBK, while believing Edmondson can win a classic.


I think its possibly a case of Cort receiving a very good offer from elsewhere and Orica saying, "whilst we'd like to keep you, that we cannot offer you outright leadership for those cobbled races". What may also be an issue is the reduction in GT team sizes from 9 to 8 which, at a GC oriented team, may've made his GT selection at Orica more tenuous whereas another team may've been able to say 'we're not after GC, if you're fit you get the ride". Conversely, Edmondson's big engine & TT capacity would serve in his favour re GC selection.

Probably correct re Orica and cobbles. I can see Hayman collecting his superannuation after next year's PR ... if not at the end of this season but I'd have Keukeleire (who in essence has been another development project by Orica) and Durbridge as the peak cobbles leaders with Edmondson being the peak development project. Trentin can certainly enter the equation as perhaps could Mezgec at certain races (I'd be happy re-signing him no matter what they intend doing re Ewan next year).
dirkprovin
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