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Doping in the lower ranks.

The Clinic is the only place on Cyclingnews where you can discuss doping-related issues. Ask questions, discuss positives or improvements to procedures.

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Doping in the lower ranks.

29 Apr 2011 19:34

The International Cycling Union (UCI) should pay closer attention to doping in the lower ranks, where oftentimes controls aren't performed due to the high costs associated with them. Furthermore, elite cyclists in the third world, without medical support or knowledge of the side effects of such powerful drugs as EPO, 'ROIDS, HGH, etc. abuse them with the compliance of trainers and Director Sportifs. The pressure to attain goals (And Gov money provided to medal recipients) plays an important role in this fiasco. replies are welcome. At the moment, I'm conducting a case study in the Dominican Republic. As I write this, I have forbidden my children to ride, as they are clean and will not compete with junkies. Very truly yours, LanterneRouge
WindLessBreeze
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29 Apr 2011 19:41

The other thing is what is cost effective. No access to the best programs, or even the best clean programs, and cheaper doping products that are also easier to detect seem to be the order of the day often in the lower leagues. The only guys still getting caught for regular ol' first generation EPO are in the lower leagues and less developed cycling areas.

The other thing is the politics, corruption and shady side of the sport. Take for example Néry Velásquez, the winner of the 2009 Vuelta a Guatemala, who hi-jacked the delivery van taking his suspect samples to be tested after a positive 'A' sample was announced. If you can't afford the complex legal defences the likes of Valverde and his like have been able to do, desperate times call for desperate measures. Desperate measures include doping in the first place, but once caught the measures can only become more desperate.
User avatar Libertine Seguros
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29 Apr 2011 20:35

Libertine Seguros wrote: Take for example Néry Velásquez, the winner of the 2009 Vuelta a Guatemala, who hi-jacked the delivery van taking his suspect samples to be tested after a positive 'A' sample was announced. If you can't afford the complex legal defences the likes of Valverde and his like have been able to do, desperate times call for desperate measures.


LMAO. Give LA credit, he never did that. I think.

Carlos Hermes, member of the medical staff responsible for handling the doping controls at the race, couldn't exclude a possible mishandling of the samples. "What happened in the lab we can't determine, but what is certain in the case of Nery is that it doesn't make sense that one day before he tests negative, one day positive and then the next day negative again," Hermes told Prensa Libre.


Read more: http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/2546/Questionable-positive-of-Vuelta-a-Guatemala-winner.aspx#ixzz1KwfXo1wY

Negative, positive, negative. Sound familiar? It can’t be a real positive if he tested negative immediately before and after. And a steroid taken just one time wouldn’t have a performance-enhancing effect, anyway. Apparently it was arguments like that that led to calls for retesting, and it was the van with those samples that was attacked. I heard there was a van carrying hair samples in Spain that went over a cliff and was never heard from again.
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29 Apr 2011 22:42

The lower ranks and club level cycling is not in the sights of WADA or the UCI they are not alowed to test at club level unless invited and a sponsor pays for it.

The reason it is too expencive just as masters dont need a TUE unless tested then they need to explain. the cost of TUE and apeals are just too much.
Lets face facts if every masters cyclist needed a TUE and the national body need a expert report @ around $1500 every time then its refused and another $4,000 in court costs.
Some of the banned drugs are used with 60 yo masters such as diueretics and blood presure meds it would soon run out of money.

Rest asured that anyone who wins a national event can be tested and probably will be. But most club events are handicaped so different grades why would you take drugs to go up to higher grade.
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29 Apr 2011 23:06

WindLessBreeze wrote: As I write this, I have forbidden my children to ride, as they are clean and will not compete with junkies. Very truly yours, LanterneRouge


Meaning doping is rampant in cycling in the Dominican Republic? I'm asking because it's not clear to me.

Per the moderator's reasonable suggestion down thread, I deleted my opinion.
User avatar DirtyWorks
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30 Apr 2011 05:13

DirtyWorks wrote:Meaning doping is rampant in cycling in the Dominican Republic? I'm asking because it's not clear to me.

As for forbidding your children, as a parent myself, I believe the goal to be if the child is interested, let them pursue it as a stage in development. That means 'winning' is not the goal. The goal is to develop strength and skills in the child's athletic interests as long as the enthusiasm is there. Once interest wanes, encourage the child to find another interest. 'Winning' is a by-product of improving and/or plain old luck, certainly not the goal. That sets pretty good limits and establishes values that make doping what it is, wrong.


well worded i agree....
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30 Apr 2011 12:24

WindLessBreeze wrote:The International Cycling Union (UCI) should pay closer attention to doping in the lower ranks, where oftentimes controls aren't performed due to the high costs associated with them. Furthermore, elite cyclists in the third world, without medical support or knowledge of the side effects of such powerful drugs as EPO, 'ROIDS, HGH, etc. abuse them with the compliance of trainers and Director Sportifs. The pressure to attain goals (And Gov money provided to medal recipients) plays an important role in this fiasco. replies are welcome. At the moment, I'm conducting a case study in the Dominican Republic. As I write this, I have forbidden my children to ride, as they are clean and will not compete with junkies. Very truly yours, LanterneRouge




What a stupid post.
User avatar TERMINATOR
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30 Apr 2011 12:50

TERMINATOR wrote:What a stupid post.


You're right; his kids are weak. They should man up and jam their veins full of substances.
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Terminated&Jimmy*****

30 Apr 2011 13:02

Another one of their drugs of choice is VIAGRA, same as both of you. Them to get shaken up, hectic, before the race. Both of you for obvious reasons. Weak are those bi-polar, sado-masochist dudes who perform oral&anal sex for cash, same as both of you, in order to supply your habits:Riding a bike while high!
How smart that is. We shall meet in the Velodromo at the london Olympics. I shall show you the meaning of the word TIFOSI; NERDS!
WindLessBreeze
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Terminated&Jimmy*****

30 Apr 2011 13:05

Another one of their drugs of choice is VIAGRA, same as both of you. Them to get shaken up, hectic, before the race. Both of you for obvious reasons. Weak are those bi-polar, sado-masochist dudes who perform oral&anal sex for cash, same as both of you, in order to supply your habits:Riding a bike while high!
How smart that is. We shall meet in the Velodromo at the London Olympics. I shall show you the meaning of the word TIFOSI; NERDS!
WindLessBreeze
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30 Apr 2011 13:22

OK, I know he raised his kids in the op, but I want them left out of here from this point out.

Also a warning to the OP that if you post on opinion, expect to get responses. If you think a response is inappropriate, report it to us via the red triangle above the post. An OTT response because "he started it and had it coming" is not acceptable either.

I have deleted a few posts to take the sting out of things. Take note of the above from this point out.
User avatar Francois the Postman
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30 Apr 2011 14:23

WindLessBreeze wrote:The International Cycling Union (UCI) should pay closer attention to doping in the lower ranks, where oftentimes controls aren't performed due to the high costs associated with them. Furthermore, elite cyclists in the third world, without medical support or knowledge of the side effects of such powerful drugs as EPO, 'ROIDS, HGH, etc. abuse them with the compliance of trainers and Director Sportifs. The pressure to attain goals (And Gov money provided to medal recipients) plays an important role in this fiasco. replies are welcome. At the moment, I'm conducting a case study in the Dominican Republic. As I write this, I have forbidden my children to ride, as they are clean and will not compete with junkies. Very truly yours, LanterneRouge


Do you really think young cyclists with ZERO money can afford doping products? Bicycles including TT bikes cost upwards of $10,000 USD and travel and entry fees can be a few more thousand. Yet somehow you want me to believe that they have additional money for doping products?

And stop with this "pressure" nonsense. There is no pressure to get results in amateur cycling. None, zero, zilch. You can quit you amateur team tomorrow and nobody will care. Doesn't sound like much pressure to me.

In fact, your family and friends will probably thank you for quitting.

Doping is driven by financial rewards at the elite and pro levels, which is why doping at the amateur level is not really a problem and never will be a problem. The cost of a doping program at the amateur level will outweigh the money to be gained so there is financial incentive to not dope at the amateur level.

So your entire post is illogical.
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LanterneRouge

30 Apr 2011 14:55

Terminator, The Postman erased some comments. My reply: The GOV has a chapter to funnel money to develop sports, even in poor countries. These folks get a salary (often as part of the Armed Forces and Police, where they may run errands); Besides, once they make it to the national teams, sponsors, both legal &/or not, provide cash and services. They also get the bare necessities, such as room and board, paid for. Some races provide cash incentives, tax free. National team members get additional money. Some of them ride for continental outfits in USA and the french antilles, and get paid. Doping products are sold over the counter, no questions asked, or prescriptions needed. Bikes and parts are bought by the Ministery of Sport, and once the championship they attended is over, they are free to sell those gadgets. Some examples: The Nat'l coach is awaiting trial in a cuban prison, accused of smuggling banned substances. The fact that freedom of the press is curtailed in Cuba, has played an important role in this being not filtered. A cache of EPO was found by the executive director in .... DELETE
WindLessBreeze
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LanterneRouge

30 Apr 2011 15:11

I'm 49 years old, and have riden since 12, as hobby, sport, transportation alternative to beat traffic jams, as a bike messenger in NYC to help pay college tuition, as a mountain biker in my country trails, etc. I've known many cyclists, both road, track, BMC, mountain, etc. Now the body of these new new folks have expanded by the use of HGH: Huge feet, hands, and HEART. 'Roids make them big, strong?!, prone to injuries, and unable to climb. Discarded syringes can be found, tossed over their living quarters, in a playground next to the velodrome. More examples? Their diet and liquid intake is deficient, and their educational level inexistent. My concern is for their well being. Using EPO, a drug which increases red blood cell count which carry oxygen (Kidney patients) w/o medical know how, could surprise you dead, unable to awaken from slumber, due to low blood pressure. 'Roids have well known side effects. Look upon medical literature. and don't question my sources or truthfullness. PERIOD
WindLessBreeze
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30 Apr 2011 15:24

TERMINATOR wrote:Do you really think young cyclists with ZERO money can afford doping products? Bicycles including TT bikes cost upwards of $10,000 USD and travel and entry fees can be a few more thousand. Yet somehow you want me to believe that they have additional money for doping products?

And stop with this "pressure" nonsense. There is no pressure to get results in amateur cycling. None, zero, zilch. You can quit you amateur team tomorrow and nobody will care. Doesn't sound like much pressure to me.

In fact, your family and friends will probably thank you for quitting.

Doping is driven by financial rewards at the elite and pro levels, which is why doping at the amateur level is not really a problem and never will be a problem. The cost of a doping program at the amateur level will outweigh the money to be gained so there is financial incentive to not dope at the amateur level.

So your entire post is illogical.

well your wrong i know amateur's who dope it happens more often that you would think.
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30 Apr 2011 15:35

WindLessBreeze wrote:Terminator, The Postman erased some comments. My reply: The GOV has a chapter to funnel money to develop sports, even in poor countries. These folks get a salary (often as part of the Armed Forces and Police, where they may run errands); Besides, once they make it to the national teams, sponsors, both legal &/or not, provide cash and services. They also get the bare necessities, such as room and board, paid for. Some races provide cash incentives, tax free. National team members get additional money. Some of them ride for continental outfits in USA and the french antilles, and get paid. Doping products are sold over the counter, no questions asked, or prescriptions needed. Bikes and parts are bought by the Ministery of Sport, and once the championship they attended is over, they are free to sell those gadgets. Some examples: The Nat'l coach is awaiting trial in a cuban prison, accused of smuggling banned substances. The fact that freedom of the press is curtailed in Cuba, has played an important role in this being not filtered. A cache of EPO was found by the executive director in .... DELETE


You are trying to make it sound like what a few corrupt Banana Republics do with a HANDFULL of elite amateur cyclists should somehow be transposed to represent the entire amateur ranks of cycling throughout the world.

In the United States, our U.S. government doesn't pay a single amateur cyclist (we have over 80,000 racers in the United States). Why you use the example of Cuba to describe the sport of cycling instead of the United States is beyond me.

You seem to be confusing how a corrupt third world government acts with a doping problem in cycling that takes place in modern countries.

You then go on to say that you won't let your child ride as if to imply he will somehow become a doper just because he rides/races a bike. Let me ask you this: do you allow your kid to go to public schools and university? Because there's a heck of a lot more illicit drug and alcohol use in schools than in cycling so good luck with your little righteous virgin contract with cycling.

Get a grip on life.
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30 Apr 2011 15:45

forty four wrote:well your wrong i know amateur's who dope it happens more often that you would think.


Tell those amateurs you know who dope they are spending more money to dope than what they win because of doping. Then tell me what they say. If they don't have an intelligent response, then they're stupid and you should tell them that.

Anybody who races a bike and doesn't do it for monetary gain is pretty stupid. Accidents, injury, travel expenses, huge time commitment for training are massive intrusions and negatives to one's life that guarantee anyone who races a bike should only do it for the money. And there's simply not enough money in amateur cycling to justify a doping program.

If people are racing for reasons other than money, then that's a bit weird, not to mention stupid.
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30 Apr 2011 16:16

WindLessBreeze wrote:I'm 49 years old, and have riden since 12, as hobby, sport, transportation alternative to beat traffic jams, as a bike messenger in NYC to help pay college tuition, as a mountain biker in my country trails, etc. I've known many cyclists, both road, track, BMC, mountain, etc. Now the body of these new new folks have expanded by the use of HGH: Huge feet, hands, and HEART. 'Roids make them big, strong?!, prone to injuries, and unable to climb. Discarded syringes can be found, tossed over their living quarters, in a playground next to the velodrome. More examples? Their diet and liquid intake is deficient, and their educational level inexistent. My concern is for their well being. Using EPO, a drug which increases red blood cell count which carry oxygen (Kidney patients) w/o medical know how, could surprise you dead, unable to awaken from slumber, due to low blood pressure. 'Roids have well known side effects. Look upon medical literature. and don't question my sources or truthfullness. PERIOD


I completely disagree with the whole line of reasoning that doping is harmful to one's health. Unless you take enough steroids to give yourself cancer (like Lance did) or EPO to make your blood as viscous as Vermont syrup (which a lot of the Euro guys do because they have no other talent in life), there's very little danger in doping. In fact, the sport of cycling itself has caused more deaths and serious injuries than doping. And this is supported by the statistics.

As for your feigned concern about the "well-being" of other cyclists, you need to drop that little act. Anyone who cares about the lives of other people are generally stalker-type weirdoes.

Most stalkers who try to kill celebrities claim the very same type of melodramatic faux concern for them. Stop acting like a fruit cake.

Give your kid back his bicycle and tell him if he wants to race, you'll support him. And stop talking about all this doping nonsense like its some kind of apocalypse to the planet.

Virtually every single top pro in the world over the past 20 years has been a chronic doper and aside from Pantani and Vandendead, they are all still alive and living in mansions. Doesn't sound too dangerous to me.

Steroids gave Lance his millions and allowed Arnold Schwarzenegger to make cool action movies about me.

You need to lighten up, Francis.
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30 Apr 2011 16:26

TERMINATOR wrote:A lot of stupid stuff.



EPO is no more dangerous than orange juice, huh?
"Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings."

Gods don't kill people, people with Gods kill people.
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LanterneRouge

30 Apr 2011 17:53

Terminators, I aren't scared a bit by your Bullying efforts. It takes more than that to terrorize me. See, Your BANANA Republic owes 14,000,000,000,000,000.oo Greenbacks. Haven't won a war since the spanish- american fiasco. Chinese and Japanese must buy all your worthless T-Bonds & T-Bills. Your cars and electronics and robotics and genetically engineered foodstuffs are junk. You should seek psychiatric help and retain a good drug counselor. I'd suggest you chill out by lighting up a fatso'Blunt
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