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Wiggins Discussion thread.

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21 Jun 2013 23:50

JRanton wrote:And I'm not surprised that he's not helping Froome after his antics last year.


And those "antics" (by Froome, I'm assuming?) would be what? Not pretending to be an inferior rider?

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"How dare he expect me to hold his wheel! Wait until I tell the Queen!"
User avatar Granville57
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22 Jun 2013 02:37

Granville57 wrote:And those "antics" (by Froome, I'm assuming?) would be what? Not pretending to be an inferior rider?

Image

"How dare he expect me to hold his wheel! Wait until I tell the Queen!"


The Toussuire attack. Put yourself in Wiggins shoes. Wiggins was the team leader, in the yellow jersey, and his teammate launches an attack straight after a hard chase back to the major rivals. Would you honestly have been happy about that? I know I wouldn't! It was absolutely ridiculous.
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22 Jun 2013 02:39

Pricey_sky wrote:If Wiggo gets himself in to form (big if) then there is no way he misses out. It's like choosing who you would rather have on a MTF between Froome and Wiggo. Froome would win everytime. Brad would outperform Froome on the TT every time.


I agree with that. Time will tell on the form question.
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22 Jun 2013 03:29

choosing froome over wiggins for the tt worlds? Say whaaatt :eek:. that's like comparing rodriguez to contador in a tt imo
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22 Jun 2013 03:53

JRanton wrote:The Toussuire attack. Put yourself in Wiggins shoes. Wiggins was the team leader, in the yellow jersey, and his teammate launches an attack straight after a hard chase back to the major rivals. Would you honestly have been happy about that? I know I wouldn't! It was absolutely ridiculous.


There was no attack. Froome was put to work pulling wiggins and wiggins just couldn't keep pace.
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22 Jun 2013 04:20

offbyone wrote:There was no attack. Froome was put to work pulling wiggins and wiggins just couldn't keep pace.


It was clearly an attack. Froome has said as much himself.

EDIT - I'm referring to Toussuire not Peyresourde.
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22 Jun 2013 04:25

offbyone wrote:There was no attack. Froome was put to work pulling wiggins and wiggins just couldn't keep pace.


you're thinking of stage 17 to peyragardes when froome was accelerating also but was working for brad to drop the rivals

Froome definitely attacked on stage 11. He got out his saddle and started accelerating. He had to be told by the team to stop. Nothing more than showing off and trying to demean Bradley's position in yellow.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yLWjeaZN3U watch from 31 minutes. You can see froome clearly attacks.
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22 Jun 2013 05:02

JRanton wrote:It was clearly an attack. Froome has said as much himself.

EDIT - I'm referring to Toussuire not Peyresourde.


nick101 wrote:you're thinking of stage 17 to peyragardes when froome was accelerating also but was working for brad to drop the rivals

Froome definitely attacked on stage 11. He got out his saddle and started accelerating. He had to be told by the team to stop. Nothing more than showing off and trying to demean Bradley's position in yellow.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yLWjeaZN3U watch from 31 minutes. You can see froome clearly attacks.


My bad, I was thinking of the other stage. If my memory serves Froome was trying to move into second place. But really if you look at it from a tactical point of view it puts pressure on everyone else to ride and wiggins should have been able to suck some wheels as a result.

Nevertheless, I get that Wiggins was annoyed at this. But it should not be that big of a deal. His teammate is feeling good. There is only a couple kilometers of racing to go. So it doesn't affect Wiggo at that point in the race, why not encourage his teammate to have a good result?

Plus we have to put this in perspective. Didn't Wiggins have minutes on froome at that point? So why not let froome have a go?
We all know the answer. Wiggins is incredible insecure and a mentally weak.
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22 Jun 2013 05:22

offbyone wrote:My bad, I was thinking of the other stage. If my memory serves Froome was trying to move into second place. But really if you look at it from a tactical point of view it puts pressure on everyone else to ride and wiggins should have been able to suck some wheels as a result.

Nevertheless, I get that Wiggins was annoyed at this. But it should not be that big of a deal. His teammate is feeling good. There is only a couple kilometers of racing to go. So it doesn't affect Wiggo at that point in the race, why not encourage his teammate to have a good result?

Plus we have to put this in perspective. Didn't Wiggins have minutes on froome at that point? So why not let froome have a go?
We all know the answer. Wiggins is incredible insecure and a mentally weak.


I think wiggins has every right to be annoyed if froome attacks him. Froome was a domestique for that tour, so it's not his right to attack, he had to look after wiggins. If costa attacked valverde or porte decided to attack froome it'd be the same situation because they're not in a position to attack their team leader. I'm definitely no wiggins fan, but you can't win a tour if you're mentally weak.
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22 Jun 2013 06:06

nick101 wrote:I think wiggins has every right to be annoyed if froome attacks him. Froome was a domestique for that tour, so it's not his right to attack, he had to look after wiggins. If costa attacked valverde or porte decided to attack froome it'd be the same situation because they're not in a position to attack their team leader. I'm definitely no wiggins fan, but you can't win a tour if you're mentally weak.


I can't disagree. It is bad form to attack your leader if not in the plans.
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22 Jun 2013 07:33

nick101 wrote:Froome definitely attacked on stage 11. He got out his saddle and started accelerating. He had to be told by the team to stop. Nothing more than showing off and trying to demean Bradley's position in yellow.


So what? Froome was screwed out of a Vuelta win by being forced to babysit Wiggums. If Sir Wiggums deserved to be in yellow then he would not have to rely on better riders being held back by team orders.
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22 Jun 2013 09:27

offbyone wrote:I can't disagree. It is bad form to attack your leader if not in the plans.


I believe the plan was he could take off at the Flamme Rouge when if he did drag Nibali and JVdB away from Wiggins it wouldn't drop him to much time to threaten the lead. With an extra 3km of recovery time Wiggins could have probably covered them anyway.
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22 Jun 2013 10:04

MellowJohnny wrote:I don't know the course for the World ITT but I would back Tony Martin.

As for Wiggins's achievements, I think so. He has broken down a lot of barriers for the sport in Britain and has made cycling more accessible (whether that was just a by product maybe) - He did act well when in yellow also (the Evans puncture incident etc) and he was dedicated in 2012.

But I wonder of his motivation, I can't see him ever winning a classic. I'm not sure if its best for him to go for smaller stage tour wins.

I'm quite sure Sky will be ruthless with him though, they won't allow for passengers.


I think that Cavendish has contributed more than Wiggins in opening up the sport in Britain. It was his successes that got people talking about cycling again leading up to his phenomenal year in 2011. 2012 was Wiggin's year for sure though it was the previous year that started to generate the media coverage.
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22 Jun 2013 10:21

BroDeal wrote:So what? Froome was screwed out of a Vuelta win by being forced to babysit Wiggums. If Sir Wiggums deserved to be in yellow then he would not have to rely on better riders being held back by team orders.


Regardless its as simple as this: if you're a domestique, you don't attack your leader. End of story. Same thing happened with cungeo and simoni. It reflects poorly on the riders character if they can't show respect to their team leader (especially since his own team mate was in yellow). Wiggins would've beaten froome even if he'd gotten away on that stage because of his superior tt'ing.

As for the vuelta, froome couldn't have won it. Cobo was just too good. Froome couldn't out climb him despite having the climb of his life at pena cabarga, and on several mtf's he gained minutes on froome with his attacks. second was a very good achievement considering it was his first serious gt
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22 Jun 2013 10:41

nick101 wrote:Regardless its as simple as this: if you're a domestique, you don't attack your leader. End of story. Same thing happened with cungeo and simoni. It reflects poorly on the riders character if they can't show respect to their team leader (especially since his own team mate was in yellow). Wiggins would've beaten froome even if he'd gotten away on that stage because of his superior tt'ing.

As for the vuelta, froome couldn't have won it. Cobo was just too good. Froome couldn't out climb him despite having the climb of his life at pena cabarga, and on several mtf's he gained minutes on froome with his attacks. second was a very good achievement considering it was his first serious gt


Froome lost the Vuelta on Manzeneda when he was told to work, whilst in the leader's jersey, when it simply wasn't necessary - there was no-one dangerous up the road and there were never going to be big gaps that day. 27s thrown away.

To say Froome couldn't have won a Vuelta that he finished in 2nd on GC @ 13", having spent the first two weeks hamstrung riding for a weaker teammate, is laughable.
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22 Jun 2013 10:53

offbyone wrote:My bad, I was thinking of the other stage. If my memory serves Froome was trying to move into second place. But really if you look at it from a tactical point of view it puts pressure on everyone else to ride and wiggins should have been able to suck some wheels as a result.

Nevertheless, I get that Wiggins was annoyed at this. But it should not be that big of a deal. His teammate is feeling good. There is only a couple kilometers of racing to go. So it doesn't affect Wiggo at that point in the race, why not encourage his teammate to have a good result?

Plus we have to put this in perspective. Didn't Wiggins have minutes on froome at that point? So why not let froome have a go?
We all know the answer. Wiggins is incredible insecure and a mentally weak.


Who says Wiggins was annoyed? I think that is just an assumption. I also didn't see him attacking his team leader. It's all about how you interpret what you see.

The two incidents I remember was Froome attacking, but unfortunately bringing Nibali with him and leaving Wiggins behind. Perhaps Wiggins thought he would be OK, and didn't mind. But Yates was very conservative and called Froome back.

The second incident that got people riled up was the last mountain stage, with Froome bouncing around trying to coach Wiggins to keep going. It didn't look good, but thats just Froome doing his best to keep his team leader focused.

You saw that this year in the Dauphine with Froome trying to pull Porte along. Froome was trying to coach Porte to keep up. It looked a little better than with Wiggins. But likely Froome has improved in this area too.

And I don't believe Froome could have beaten Wiggins last year. Wiggins was too much better on the ITT.
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22 Jun 2013 10:57

will10 wrote:Froome lost the Vuelta on Manzeneda when he was told to work, whilst in the leader's jersey, when it simply wasn't necessary - there was no-one dangerous up the road and there were never going to be big gaps that day. 27s thrown away.

To say Froome couldn't have won a Vuelta that he finished in 2nd on GC @ 13", having spent the first two weeks hamstrung riding for a weaker teammate, is laughable.


cobo was just too good. he reeled in froomes best ever attack and then counter attacked. froome would've over reached and blown up trying to stay with cobo when he was riding away on previous stages. he had team mates up the road when he was doing so and they just would've worked against him and taken turns attacking him along with Taaramae. he couldn't hold his wheel on the angliru and nothing else suggests he would've done any better. if he had been trying to hold cobo's wheel, he would've blown up on the angliru and lost even more time. cobo was unlucky not to win by more

and about froome working for wiggins. he only worked on several stages for him. I only once saw him doing more than a few kms on the front on stage 11 of the vuelta
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22 Jun 2013 10:59

Froome didn't bring Nibali with him.

It was Froome-Pinot-gap-Nibali-gap-VDB-gap-Wiggins
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22 Jun 2013 11:08

roundabout wrote:Froome didn't bring Nibali with him.

It was Froome-Pinot-gap-Nibali-gap-VDB-gap-Wiggins


note pinot stayed with froomes only decent attack :o
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22 Jun 2013 11:14

You are right. He didn't attack when he dropped everyone on Peyragudes. Just pedaled a bit faster.
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