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Wiggins Discussion thread.

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29 Aug 2011 08:02

auscyclefan94 wrote:What is a disadvantage for Nibali is that there are no down hill finishes that e can go craz and take some big time out of his rivals in the Vuelta edition.


If Nibali was Spanish all of those JRod finishes would have been replaced by insane descents. I'm actually sort of surprised that this year's Giro didn't finish eighteen stages with descents of the Crostis.
Zinoviev Letter
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29 Aug 2011 08:36

Yes, I do like Wiggins and I'm not British or even Anglophone. He lost a lot of credit due to the transfer saga from Garmin to Sky, but besides his stupid comments here he generally comes across as a very decent guy. His 2010 was terrible, and he didn't seem motivated to do anything, but this year he works hard and I'm starting to like him again.

I also don't share the general bias towards riders that aren't explosive super-climbers. I enjoy riders who climb in a steady tempo like Basso, and don't dislike riders who hold on in the mountains and time trial to victory. In my opinion, that kind of rider makes a GT much more interesting. When they take time in the TT, the pure climbers need to attack, making the mountains more interesting (which, of course, doesn't work if Contador is there who nails it in both the TT's and mountains).

And at Dave: You're right, this is a very nasty place and it's taken me a long time to adapt to it. It just requires a change of attitude: a serious discussion is not really possible on this forum. Just join in the fights, bait the Dutch, hate every rider that does better than your favourite, and be as biased and ignorant as anyone else and you'll be fine :)

Oh, and stay out of the clinic! If you're an at least semi-intelligent person, five minutes in the Clinic is equal to a lifetime in Hell.
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29 Aug 2011 08:37

daveinzambia wrote:I am outside the UK and I like him. obviously not as bitter and twisted and most on here.

frankly started coming on here to keep an eye on transfer rumours, got drawn into a few discussions and now every time i read threads get utterly depressed by this place

over the continual bashing of riders, of anyone who does anything. honestly i wonder why some people in this forum even bother with the sport given the fact that apparently everyone dopes and they hate dopers.

will stick to reading the web site and wait a little longer to get transfer rumours confirmed and keep myself out of this sad depressing place.


Well you could stay out of the clinic, and report any posts outside there which identify riders as being dopers/clean.

patterson_hood wrote:I've only just started posting and I already have to ignore alot of the posters. I agree with you Dave, I can't understand how some people on here manage to watch cycling, they must be foaming at the mouth with every stage as it seems that anyone who rides reasonably well is full of dope.

The clinic is ridiculous, I came looking for intelligent discussion on a subject that I find very interesting and have a fair bit of knowledge about. Instead it's baseless accusations and random insults.

Got to say I'm a big Wiggins fan, I like riders who can get on the front and put the hurt on like that, mainly because I think that's the kind of rider I would have been if I'd ever taken up cycling.

Brad gets a lot of stick, even for things that are nothing to do with cycling on here, and I'd love to see him do well, I just hope he's measured his effort well enough to have something in the tank for the TT.

Remember people thought Evans would struggle in the TT at the Tour, I wonder if we are going to see a similar ride from Wiggins today?


Same advice, dont come on the prr section to complain about how posters in the clinic behave. With some overlap, its different posters here and there.
The Hitch: Winner 2013 Vuelta cq game. Winner, Velorooms prediction game 2012, 2013. 2nd all time cq rankings.
The Father of Clean Cycling, Christophe Bassons wrote:When I look at cycling today, I get the impression that history is repeating itself: riders who are supposed to be rouleurs are climbing passes at the front of the race, and those who are supposed to be climbers are riding time trials at more than 50 kilometres per hour.

The story is beginning again, just as it did 14 years ago


journalist with integrity.
User avatar The Hitch
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29 Aug 2011 08:42

daveinzambia wrote:I am outside the UK and I like him. obviously not as bitter and twisted and most on here.

frankly started coming on here to keep an eye on transfer rumours, got drawn into a few discussions and now every time i read threads get utterly depressed by this place

over the continual bashing of riders, of anyone who does anything. honestly i wonder why some people in this forum even bother with the sport given the fact that apparently everyone dopes and they hate dopers.

will stick to reading the web site and wait a little longer to get transfer rumours confirmed and keep myself out of this sad depressing place.


Well you could stay out of the clinic, and report any posts outside there which identify riders as being dopers/clean.

patterson_hood wrote:I've only just started posting and I already have to ignore alot of the posters. I agree with you Dave, I can't understand how some people on here manage to watch cycling, they must be foaming at the mouth with every stage as it seems that anyone who rides reasonably well is full of dope.

The clinic is ridiculous, I came looking for intelligent discussion on a subject that I find very interesting and have a fair bit of knowledge about. Instead it's baseless accusations and random insults.

Got to say I'm a big Wiggins fan, I like riders who can get on the front and put the hurt on like that, mainly because I think that's the kind of rider I would have been if I'd ever taken up cycling.

Brad gets a lot of stick, even for things that are nothing to do with cycling on here, and I'd love to see him do well, I just hope he's measured his effort well enough to have something in the tank for the TT.

Remember people thought Evans would struggle in the TT at the Tour, I wonder if we are going to see a similar ride from Wiggins today?


Same advice, dont come on the prr section to complain about how posters in the clinic behave. With some overlap, its different posters here and there.

auscyclefan94 wrote:A lot of people do.

Can't say I really like brad though he's doing well. Farrapona, Angliru and Pena Carbarga will sort him out. Wiggins will need to take some big time out of Nibali though. What is a disadvantage for Nibali is that there are no down hill finishes that e can go craz and take some big time out of his rivals in the Vuelta edition.


stage 19 i think has a descent finishes.

Zinoviev Letter wrote:If Nibali was Spanish all of those JRod finishes would have been replaced by insane descents.


What like all those descent finishes at the Giro?

The Giro suited Purito much more than the Vuelta.

the Vuelta has a long flat itt, 2 long not so steep mtfs, the type on which Purito usually cracks on, and yet it was created for J Rod?

Moreover why J Rod. There was Anton, possibly Samu and Contador as well. When they created the route they had no idea who was coming.

They have some nice steep finishes, but that cant be because those proved succesful last year, can it?
The Hitch: Winner 2013 Vuelta cq game. Winner, Velorooms prediction game 2012, 2013. 2nd all time cq rankings.
The Father of Clean Cycling, Christophe Bassons wrote:When I look at cycling today, I get the impression that history is repeating itself: riders who are supposed to be rouleurs are climbing passes at the front of the race, and those who are supposed to be climbers are riding time trials at more than 50 kilometres per hour.

The story is beginning again, just as it did 14 years ago


journalist with integrity.
User avatar The Hitch
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29 Aug 2011 09:09

Not really a Wiggins fan mainly because I have always found him a bit opaque. I recognise this as an unfair prejudice of mine because it has almost nothing to do with his bike riding.

I was a contemporary of his when he was a very good junior on the road, even before all the track stuff. He was very quick then, a lot heavier of course, and it still amazes how he went from that to this.

I was very impressed by him yesterday. How he finishes this Vuelta will probably decide me on him long term.
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29 Aug 2011 09:13

I like Wiggins as a person, he seems to be an intelligent bloke with a good sense of humour. The type of rider he is doesn't really appeal to me, but the way he's currently riding is just incredibly strong, riding everyone bar 3 or 4 guys off his wheel on a crosswind section... what a great show of strength. Props to him.
theyoungest
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29 Aug 2011 09:20

spanky wanderlust wrote:everyone who voted for wiggins in the pre vuelta poll was practically laughed out of town. and now this?

:rolleyes:

would love to see brad get one.


I was one of the people who was quite vocal about him having no chance. Im happy to say that I jumped the gun plenty on that one. I like Brad and am pleased that he's proven me an idiot for saying he had absolutely no chance I still think he needs a huge ride today to win the vuelta but he's capable of it.
Those are my principles and if you don't like them i have others
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29 Aug 2011 09:27

The Dauphiné route wasn't rubbish. It was actually pretty decent.

The Paris-Nice route - THAT was rubbish.

Wiggins yesterday impressed me. I didn't think he had that in him. He just ground people down like he was Ivan Basso or something. No need to attack, just ride them off your wheel. Very good showing.

But to say that he is now the absolute favourite for the Vuelta may be a misnomer - remember that Nibali had spent energy in an attack earlier on, and despite the brilliant performance Wiggins still put:
7" into Nibali
8" into Menchov
15" into van den Broeck
37" into Nieve
37" into Monfort
46" into Bruseghin
46" into Rodríguez
1'23" into Brajkovic
1'46" into Antón
1'46" into Scarponi

With the possible exceptions of the last 3, that really isn't all that much, when you consider what is to come, and that he is still nearly a minute behind Nibali on the GC.

I remember saying about Wiggins' chances that I thought he could do well, if he limited his losses in the uphill finishes in the first week, because I felt that La Covatilla and La Manzaneda suited him. I didn't expect him to be putting time into people, but ultimately this was a one-climb stage and as a result the gaps aren't so great. What could or would have happened if it was a multi-climb stage is up for debate; given the form people were in yesterday it seems Wiggins may have been able to take more time. But some riders like Bruseghin need a bit more climbing to get their diesels warmed up; the 2009 Tour route had a few one-climb-stages where Wiggins was very impressive but the only real multi-climb stage saw him lose 3 minutes. It's hard to say because the camera didn't show much of what was going on behind in the latter stages, but clearly the Taaramäe/Menchov/Zubeldia/Kessiakoff/Poels group caught some of the time back in the last kilometre as Wiggins continued to pull.

The ITT today represents Wiggins' best chance at building up a lead. La Manzaneda suits him pretty well as well, but it falls after the rest day so I would expect the other riders to be relatively fresh and harder to drop in that style. However Wiggins did not waste energy chasing down needless attacks like Scarponi did, and rode a very sensible climb. If his tactic is going to be to simply pretend nobody else is there and grind his way up the climb, he's probably got a good chance of limiting his losses fairly competently on Farrapona and Anglirú - the question then will be, who's the one that takes the bull by the horns? Nibali was 3rd to Monte Zoncolán, and J-Rod was 3rd to Anglirú in service of Valverde in 2008. We've never really seen Wiggins in form on a climb of this calibre (it would be unfair to judge him on the 2010 Giro Zoncolán stage).
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29 Aug 2011 09:28

Damiano Machiavelli wrote: As it is Wiggins has one stage race win, and that race had a crappy route.


Of course, as anyone who watched the race knows, it had 3.5 MTF. What a crappy route.
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29 Aug 2011 10:10

Clemson Cycling wrote:Is there anyone outside the UK that likes Mr. Wiggo


Ehm yes. I like him. It's not like I'm a fan of him, but I don't really see why I shouldn't like him. Specially this year he's been very strong.
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29 Aug 2011 10:14

Anyone who climbs like they did yesterday deserves respect. Taking time on Rodriguez, Scarponi, Nibali etc, really surprised me. Personally I think it is great Wiggins doing so well, as I have never seen a Brit with a genuine chance of a GT win. How long will we have to wait after Wiggins retires?? Would love Wiggins to break the UK duck. He has a great chance.
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29 Aug 2011 10:14

To summarise:

- I think that, given that the time gaps were eventually pretty small on La Covatilla, we will have to reserve judgement on Wiggins becoming a favourite on the spot, since there are some stages that really don't suit him later in the race, whereas that climb, whilst not ideal for him, was certainly one that many felt he'd be able to comfortably handle
- regardless of whether he can, should, will or does win the race, what Wiggins has done is twofold. One, he has proven that he doesn't have to just be a follower or hanger-on in the mountains, when he puts his mind to it he can climb with the best. And two, he has won a lot of brand new respect as a GC rider, where before he was seen as a follower, a pretender, now we have to look at him as a proper contender. A diesel, for sure. A guy who is still unproven on the really steep stuff, for sure. But a contender, and a genuine one at that.
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29 Aug 2011 10:14

Damiano Machiavelli wrote:Nobody cares about track but a few brits and aussies. You might as well bring up his record playing croquet. As it is Wiggins has one stage race win, and that race had a crappy route.


Dauphine a louse route? For real? 2 MTF, 1 long TT, 2 uphill finishes and 2 flat finishes.
Sounds like a nice route to me. The pure climbers weren't able to drop Wiggins on the climbs doesn't mean it's a poor route.
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29 Aug 2011 10:24

Libertine Seguros wrote:To summarise:

- I think that, given that the time gaps were eventually pretty small on La Covatilla, we will have to reserve judgement on Wiggins becoming a favourite on the spot, since there are some stages that really don't suit him later in the race, whereas that climb, whilst not ideal for him, was certainly one that many felt he'd be able to comfortably handle
- regardless of whether he can, should, will or does win the race, what Wiggins has done is twofold. One, he has proven that he doesn't have to just be a follower or hanger-on in the mountains, when he puts his mind to it he can climb with the best. And two, he has won a lot of brand new respect as a GC rider, where before he was seen as a follower, a pretender, now we have to look at him as a proper contender. A diesel, for sure. A guy who is still unproven on the really steep stuff, for sure. But a contender, and a genuine one at that.

There's as much reason to consider Wiggins a favourite for this Vuelta, as there was to consider Antón a favourite after having done a great first week last year. If anything, Wiggins has more GT chops than Antón, for having finished 4th in the Tour day France. Wiggins is a diesel, Antón is fragile and inconsistent... what's worse in a three week tour? I've seen the answer on the road.
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29 Aug 2011 10:27

Nice ride by Wiggins, he is certainly gaining form/ time and setting himself up well. I wonder what his bad day might be. He just has to watch out that he does not go into the red on the hilly stages.
I'd agree with you but then we'd both be wrong

The Grand Boucle wasn't just Europe's for the taking.

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29 Aug 2011 10:38

theyoungest wrote:There's as much reason to consider Wiggins a favourite for this Vuelta, as there was to consider Antón a favourite after having done a great first week last year. If anything, Wiggins has more GT chops than Antón, for having finished 4th in the Tour day France. Wiggins is a diesel, Antón is fragile and inconsistent... what's worse in a three week tour? I've seen the answer on the road.


For God's sake don't get so defensive.

People were unconvinced about Wiggins because he had never backed that original breakthrough performance up - in 2010 he was disappointing, and the 2009 Tour route neutralised many of the high mountains, so his climbing was still something that people were unsure about. Especially on a route with Anglirú on it, since we've NEVER seen an on-form Wiggins tackle a really steep climb like that. Because the focus of the event was more on climbing and less on the ITT, people were considering Wiggins not a threat because he's comparable to Menchov, but few would consider him to be a better climber, at least not before the start of this Vuelta anyway.

Climbing was something people were not unsure about with Antón. More than his 2010 Vuelta, he'd dropped Contador in Castilla y León, gone with Contador and Valverde in the 2008 Vuelta, and won a week 3 mountain stage in 2006. Now I defended Antón primarily because people were saying he was being judged a contender ONLY on the 2010 Vuelta. That's unfair. However, I judged him not consistent enough and considered Nibali the favourite. That was born out, in disappointing fashion.

To be honest, I am still willing to consider Nibali the favourite. He has come out of some very difficult Giro stages on very steep material smelling of roses (Zoncolán, Mortirolo) and his ride to defend his jersey on Bola del Mundo last year was spectacular. Wiggins on Farrapona and Anglirú is still a bit of a crapshoot. How good is he on that kind of climb? Truth be told, I'd expect Rodríguez to own him on that climb - but Rodríguez may have blown his chances yesterday, given that we have an ITT - his nemesis - and another climb suited to Wiggins in La Manzaneda after that.

On the plus side, that means that the likes of Purito will really have to make Anglirú hard right from the bottom. Wiggins will, if yesterday is anything to go by, just pretend they're not there and ride at his own tempo not caring if anybody's sitting on his back wheel or not. I don't think Purito can beat him - but Menchov or Nibali might get in between them, and the gaps on Anglirú will definitely be bigger than those on La Covatilla.

I always thought Wiggins had a decent tilt at the GC here - but I didn't think he could win, I thought the podium at the absolute best. Now it looks more like I was wrong, and the podium is likely, and the win at absolute best.
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29 Aug 2011 10:40

libertine seguros wrote:to summarise:

- i think that, given that the time gaps were eventually pretty small on la covatilla, we will have to reserve judgement on wiggins becoming a favourite on the spot, since there are some stages that really don't suit him later in the race, whereas that climb, whilst not ideal for him, was certainly one that many felt he'd be able to comfortably handle
- regardless of whether he can, should, will or does win the race, what wiggins has done is twofold. One, he has proven that he doesn't have to just be a follower or hanger-on in the mountains, when he puts his mind to it he can climb with the best. And two, he has won a lot of brand new respect as a gc rider, where before he was seen as a follower, a pretender, now we have to look at him as a proper contender. A diesel, for sure. A guy who is still unproven on the really steep stuff, for sure. But a contender, and a genuine one at that.


+1

..........
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29 Aug 2011 10:43

I'd say comparing Wiggins' ride yesterday to Andy's 60 km break is a tad over the top. All he did was put the hurt on from the front for the last few kilometers. And he was only finishing the job, really, after Froome had put many of his rivals in trouble. It was impressive, and Wiggins showed a new side of himself, but it was nothing extraordinary.
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User avatar goggalor
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29 Aug 2011 10:59

Libertine Seguros wrote:For God's sake don't get so defensive.

This is what we call projection.
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29 Aug 2011 11:06

theyoungest wrote:This is what we call projection.


The thing is, I felt like you were snapping at me for being too critical; I felt I wasn't being critical but cautious.

I know a lot of people take "diesel" as an insult for a GC man, with images of Leipheimer in their head, but some diesels are pure climbers (Ivan Basso, for example, and to a lesser extent Carlos Sastre). Wiggins never tried to chase down the attacks, and the only wheel he sucked was Froome's, which he has every right to do since it's his domestique. He rode that climb like there was nobody else there, and if there was, he didn't care. That's probably the best way for him to climb.

The main thing was, I was very impressed with him yesterday, and didn't think he had it in him. But the time gaps were still small, and he's still unproven on really steep stuff, so I'm not going to start anointing him just yet. In lieu of any representative performances on climbs like Anglirú to judge him on, I'm going to maintain my expectation that Nibali will outperform him there and probably win the Vuelta.

I could easily be wrong, because as I point out, Wiggins is untested on that kind of climb. He could acquit himself much better than anticipated.
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