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Wiggins Discussion thread.

A place to discuss all things related to current professional road races. Here, you can also touch on the latest news relating to professional road racing. A doping discussion free forum.

07 Jun 2014 17:50

JRanton wrote:I mean, just look at it! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LIRIAinJo0E


Freaking incredible finish.
User avatar jaylew
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07 Jun 2014 18:05

rzombie1988 wrote:Agreed.

Froome did great in the Vuelta 2011 but doing good in one GT doesn't mean too much in the long run. He definitely looked like he had potential and upside, but so has Rolland, Pinot, Moreno and a bunch of others and they haven't won any TdF's..


Froome 2011 vuelta was way bigger than any of those. He was the best rider in the gt. None of those have ever been that. one can say a performance is an accident if a rider has 1 good day, but froome had several, over a long period, in different disciplines -tt, long mountain, medium length climb.

Of course we've seen some (peter velits, though he was nowhere near as good as froome) have good performances then whilst, usually for clinic reasons, but in a sport that is as much about absolute physiology as cycling, it is very rare for someone to not be able to reproduce a top performance, especially at that age.

That said, I understand why sky would have chosen Wiggins over froome since Wiggins had shown more, especially that year, though I always assumed it was because sky had planned for Wiggins to be the king that year, and froome had no need to perform before the tour. I also dispute the idea that the second best rider on a team must be a domestique and can't have a free role. Under normal circumstances froome should have been given a free role, but sky wanted to win with Wiggins.
The Hitch: Winner 2013 Vuelta cq game. Winner, Velorooms prediction game 2012, 2013. 2nd all time cq rankings.
The Father of Clean Cycling, Christophe Bassons wrote:When I look at cycling today, I get the impression that history is repeating itself: riders who are supposed to be rouleurs are climbing passes at the front of the race, and those who are supposed to be climbers are riding time trials at more than 50 kilometres per hour.

The story is beginning again, just as it did 14 years ago


journalist with integrity.
User avatar The Hitch
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07 Jun 2014 19:03

froome came 2nd 3.21 behind wiggins in 2012 , froome could of rode away from wiggins on nearly every mountain top finish , how long you think that 3.21 he gained in time trials would have lasted , it would have been completely gone by the time they hit grand columbier if froome did not have to babysit him . wiggins is the disgrace here not froome or sky , its not within him to help others now he is not the number one anymore . he is selfish and arrogant and not willing to work for any other rider its as simple as that . but because he is now a "sir" he will be protected with fairy stories in the press when the plain truth is that he has too bigger ego to work for froome . clearly there is dislike for each other and i can fully understand why , froome has been treated like a dog by wiggins for 3 years .
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07 Jun 2014 19:04

The Hitch wrote:Under normal circumstances froome should have been given a free role, but sky wanted to win with Wiggins.


When Astana tried that, Lance got third. Jan and Vino finished third and fifth. It kind of worked in 2008, but Frandy still don't like it. Wiggins, likewise, was going to crack mentally, if not physically, had Froome been let loose on the peloton. Sky had a sure 1-2, so why not run with it?

For Vuelta 2011, as an aside, Sky has no excuse: Froome clearly was the best in show.
phanatic
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07 Jun 2014 19:06

I find it interesting that one man has so far been able to avoid any criticism in the Wiggins/Froome debate - David Walsh.

It was Walsh that stirred things up with the whole thing of Froome not being paid by Wiggins for his efforts in 2012. This was not true. According with tradition, Wiggins handed over his winnings to Sky who then shared it out between the tour team. Wiggins did not pay Froome any of his bonus paid by Sky where traditions are a bit murky.

I am reading elsewhere on the internet that Froome - to his credit - did not want to release his book before the Tour but he was overruled. Probably by Walsh who ghost wrote the book for him and probably wanted to ramp up his share of the sales.

It was also Walsh that exposed the potential problems with Jonathan Tiernan Locke despite the fact that he has not been found guilty of anything. JTL deserved to be treated with respect but Walsh wanted his scoop for The Sunday Times - who coincidentally are ultimately the same paymasters as Team Sky.

Walsh gets a lot of credit for exposing Lance Armstrong. But he was only able to do this because his employer had the money to pay the legal bills. Smarter cycling journalists and others were on to LA before him but had to keep their mouths shut.

Now Walsh is a fully paid up member of the Froome supporters club and has played no small part in the shunning of Bradley Wiggins by Sky.
Non Grimpeur
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07 Jun 2014 19:21

Non Grimpeur wrote:I find it interesting that one man has so far been able to avoid any criticism in the Wiggins/Froome debate - David Walsh.

It was Walsh that stirred things up with the whole thing of Froome not being paid by Wiggins for his efforts in 2012. This was not true. According with tradition, Wiggins handed over his winnings to Sky who then shared it out between the tour team. Wiggins did not pay Froome any of his bonus paid by Sky where traditions are a bit murky.

I am reading elsewhere on the internet that Froome - to his credit - did not want to release his book before the Tour but he was overruled. Probably by Walsh who ghost wrote the book for him and probably wanted to ramp up his share of the sales.

It was also Walsh that exposed the potential problems with Jonathan Tiernan Locke despite the fact that he has not been found guilty of anything. JTL deserved to be treated with respect but Walsh wanted his scoop for The Sunday Times - who coincidentally are ultimately the same paymasters as Team Sky.

Walsh gets a lot of credit for exposing Lance Armstrong. But he was only able to do this because his employer had the money to pay the legal bills. Smarter cycling journalists and others were on to LA before him but had to keep their mouths shut.

Now Walsh is a fully paid up member of the Froome supporters club and has played no small part in the shunning of Bradley Wiggins by Sky.


If he said nothing about JTL he would be hiding the abmnormalities. The whole idea of Walsh being there is for transparency so I think your just stirring . As for Wiggins, well he personally did not pay Froome, he has won an American race and not being involved at the real top level here. If he was he would be in the team. Sentiment needs to be left at the door, he is just not good for the team......If only cycling allowed mid season transfers I would love to see him get whipped in the tour as soon as it goes uphill.....or rains going downhill and he got flashbacks of the GIRO debacle.
noddy69
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07 Jun 2014 19:43

noddy69 wrote:If he said nothing about JTL he would be hiding the abmnormalities. The whole idea of Walsh being there is for transparency so I think your just stirring . As for Wiggins, well he personally did not pay Froome, he has won an American race and not being involved at the real top level here. If he was he would be in the team. Sentiment needs to be left at the door, he is just not good for the team......If only cycling allowed mid season transfers I would love to see him get whipped in the tour as soon as it goes uphill.....or rains going downhill and he got flashbacks of the GIRO debacle.


You say Wiggins has not been involved at the real top level. Who on Sky this year has? Certainly not Porte. Thomas has been decent but Wiggins' performance in Paris Roubaix, the TT in TOC and the last climbing stage there where Dombrowski could hardly hold his wheel has been very good.

This is not about sentiment. Wiggins is still a very good rider and one of the best that Sky has got. He deserves a place on merit. He has said he would help Froome but Froome has frozen him out.

As for who is not good for the team it is Froome. He openly attacked his leader. Read Wiggins' autobiography. He was willing to work for Froome after he took the red jersey in the 2011 Vuelta but management overruled him. The same management that told Froome to work for Wiggins in 2012.

Wiggins did not stop Froome riding in 2012. I bet he wished he had done now.
Non Grimpeur
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07 Jun 2014 19:57

Dombrowski in his first "real" race of the year.

I also bet that Wiggins would have enjoyed doing the Toussuire stage without Froome.
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07 Jun 2014 20:05

roundabout wrote:Dombrowski in his first "real" race of the year.

I also bet that Wiggins would have enjoyed doing the Toussuire stage without Froome.


Until he attacked, Froome was magnificent in helping Wiggins on La Toussuire.
Non Grimpeur
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07 Jun 2014 20:38

shades1 wrote:froome came 2nd 3.21 behind wiggins in 2012 , froome could of rode away from wiggins on nearly every mountain top finish , how long you think that 3.21 he gained in time trials would have lasted , it would have been completely gone by the time they hit grand columbier if froome did not have to babysit him . wiggins is the disgrace here not froome or sky , its not within him to help others now he is not the number one anymore . he is selfish and arrogant and not willing to work for any other rider its as simple as that . but because he is now a "sir" he will be protected with fairy stories in the press when the plain truth is that he has too bigger ego to work for froome . clearly there is dislike for each other and i can fully understand why , froome has been treated like a dog by wiggins for 3 years .


This post sums up my thoughts on Wiggins. His knighthood seems to have given him a sense of entitlement. But the painful truth is even Wiggins 2012 would not have beaten Froome 2013. And Froome 2013 would not have lost 3.21 to Wiggins in the 2012 TT's either. Wiggins arrogance was obvious in 2012. The Knighthood was a little premature I think.
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07 Jun 2014 21:00

The Hitch wrote:I also dispute the idea that the second best rider on a team must be a domestique and can't have a free role. Under normal circumstances froome should have been given a free role, but sky wanted to win with Wiggins.


Well Hitch, I would say that history has a fair share of duo-Leaderships which failed in the face of the competition. If we go to the near past: We have Jan-Kloeden-Vino who tied in different compositions. We have the Shreck bro's who have been crushed by Alberto and Cadel.

Recent succes stories? We have Sastre-Shrecks and that's it*. Indeed even with Sastre he was actually the leader designated before the TdF.

There's a reason the winner almost always comes from a team with one leader. It's more effective if consider the data that we have. Be it chemistry, organisation, whatever. Two captains on a ship is just a bad idea.

So clearly it's not normal at all that the lieutenant get's a free role.


*Contador-Armstrong was not a team with two leaders. It were two mini teams who just rode against each other.
"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence."

"When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do, sir?"

"It is better to risk saving a guilty person than to condemn an innocent one."
Franklin
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07 Jun 2014 21:06

Cookster15 wrote: His knighthood seems to have given him a sense of entitlement. .

Yet it's not a drop in the ocean of entitlement Froome thinks he has. And yes, that's painfuly obvious through his own biography which is a most gruesome character suicide.

To my surprise, as I thought he was a collected character, Froome is missing more than a few restraints in the mental department.
"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence."

"When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do, sir?"

"It is better to risk saving a guilty person than to condemn an innocent one."
Franklin
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07 Jun 2014 22:12

wouldn't Wiggins be a good card for the upcoming Alonso team?
_nm___
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07 Jun 2014 22:42

_nm___ wrote:wouldn't Wiggins be a good card for the upcoming Alonso team?


yes, but then he would be a good card for almost any team except Sky.
Swifty's Cakes
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08 Jun 2014 01:02

Franklin wrote:Well Hitch, I would say that history has a fair share of duo-Leaderships which failed in the face of the competition. If we go to the near past: We have Jan-Kloeden-Vino who tied in different compositions. We have the Shreck bro's who have been crushed by Alberto and Cadel.

Recent succes stories? We have Sastre-Shrecks and that's it*. Indeed even with Sastre he was actually the leader designated before the TdF.

There's a reason the winner almost always comes from a team with one leader. It's more effective if consider the data that we have. Be it chemistry, organisation, whatever. Two captains on a ship is just a bad idea.

So clearly it's not normal at all that the lieutenant get's a free role.


*Contador-Armstrong was not a team with two leaders. It were two mini teams who just rode against each other.


I agree with Hitch that you can have two leaders, or at least a strong domestique who is given a relatively free role.

It can depend on the team make up. When Lance won his seven Tours it wasn't going to matter what anyone else did. Apart from '03 he was clearly the strongest rider.

But take a couple of Kloden's Tours. In '04, if he'd been made to wait for Ullrich in the Pyrenees, then there is no way that he would have beaten Basso to second spot on the podium. And the small help that he could have given Jan wouldn't have allowed him to limit his losses enough to eventually defeat Ivan, so giving Andreas a free role here was a good decision.

The opposite occurred in the '07 Tour. Already well ahead of Vino in the overall standings and with apparently stronger legs given his super showing in the prologue, Kloden was nevertheless asked to work and then wait for his team captain on the first MTF in the Alps. In the end it didn't matter since Astana was thrown out of the race in disgrace, but Kloden was a potential podium finisher in that event, whereas Vino wasn't.

A little off topic so I will also post elsewhere ;)
In top grade professional cycling (and in life) it is virtually impossible to be a major winner whilst being 100% clean (or honest). Most GC GT riders are simply doing what they love whilst playing the game.

I'm a huge Kloden fan (or a Klodist) - despite the fact that he rode for Telekom/T-Mobile, Astana and Radioshack :)

Contador at Fuente De - I salute you!

Germany 7 Brazil 1 :D
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08 Jun 2014 07:23

Good article in ST today. It seems there has been a mutual dislike since the Vuelta. Also interesting is Wiggo hasn't been told yet that he's not going but takes it upon himself to interview on the BBC !

It's that kind errant behaviour that makes brailsford a decision any easy one.
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08 Jun 2014 07:44

JRanton wrote:I mean, just look at it! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LIRIAinJo0E


Only one word comes to mind: Pathetic.
And there are actually real people who believes in this new fairy tale? :eek:
Amazing.
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08 Jun 2014 08:16

nevada wrote:Good article in ST today. It seems there has been a mutual dislike since the Vuelta. Also interesting is Wiggo hasn't been told yet that he's not going but takes it upon himself to interview on the BBC !

It's that kind errant behaviour that makes brailsford a decision any easy one.


Brailsford rang him and told him he should focus on on the Commonwealth Games
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08 Jun 2014 08:18

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EIEp_y_cNZ8

forward to 40.45 for BWs interview and mentioning froome , i lol so hard when i hear him say this sentence ,

"il be there to support him every step of the way"

yeh righto brad :-/
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08 Jun 2014 09:11

Jones123 wrote:Brailsford rang him and told him he should focus on on the Commonwealth Games


Seems clear enough.
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