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A place to discuss all things related to current professional road races. Here, you can also touch on the latest news relating to professional road racing. A doping discussion free forum.

31 Aug 2011 19:26

The best thing that could happen is that a bunch of the folks that were so quick to bail from Riis' sinking ship late last season are left high and dry. Hope Bjarne has a good laugh at their expense. Of course that lying little pr*ck Ogrady got out ahead of it, but Greenedge is gonna suck anyway. Karma is a b*tch. Just ask that whiny soon-to-be-hasbeen spartacus.
autologous
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31 Aug 2011 19:58

A few observations from a long time lurker.

1. Take the off topic discussion regarding your dislike for LA, JB, et al to an Off-Topic Thread. As someone who doesn't frequent the forum very much y'all sound like a bunch whining kids. It doesn't promote a welcoming environment to other members and guests. Now with that out of the way....

2. Regarding a possible merger. The business of cycling it to make money for sponsors. Anyone involved in any sort of business knows that your fortunes can change at any moment and that there is a need to be flexible. With that comes the potential that people will lose their jobs. That's just a fact of life and a fact of business. And every rider knows that. And if they don't then they're ignorant.

3. This potential merger is quite interesting...imagine the team dynamics if JB could create 2 to 3 squads of "Super Teams" that could be riding at any given time. There could be a Frank led team...an Andy led team, etc. I don't see RS/LT diminishing their focus on the Classics. Not with so many high profiled riders on the team...they'd need to be riding almost every week to keep their name and pictures in the press to keep the income coming in.

And regarding potentially displaced riders....the cycling world has seen an increase in the caliper of teams and riders. Remember when BMC was Pro Continental ? And really, had y'all ever heard of Vacansoleil before this spring? Even the Pro Continental and and Continental teams are still quality teams that are always looking to pick up riders.

Just a few quick thoughts.

late,
Coz
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User avatar Coz Boogie
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31 Aug 2011 20:06

eleven wrote:"Defending the mess"? All I've done is explain how absurd it is to blame Bruyneel for acting in the best interest of his sponsors, or to assign ill will to the decision.


Whats absurd is that you think Bruyneel should act in the "best interest of his sponsors" - he should be acting in the best interest of his team.

It seems that JB (like Leopard) don't have the sponsors lined up that can support their teams, so I cant see that as acting in anyone's best interests.
It is a mess for both teams, the riders and ultimately the sport.
User avatar Dr. Maserati
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31 Aug 2011 20:15

Dr. Maserati wrote:Whats absurd is that you think Bruyneel should act in the "best interest of his sponsors" - he should be acting in the best interest of his team.


Those two are the same. Acting in the best interest of the sponsors is the only way to get funding to act in the interest of riders.

It seems that JB (like Leopard) don't have the sponsors lined up that can support their teams, so I cant see that as acting in anyone's best interests.
It is a mess for both teams, the riders and ultimately the sport.


So Bob Stapleton wasn't acting in the best interest of his team?
eleven
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31 Aug 2011 20:16

Coz Boogie wrote:A few observations from a long time lurker.

2. Regarding a possible merger. The business of cycling it to make money for sponsors. Anyone involved in any sort of business knows that your fortunes can change at any moment and that there is a need to be flexible. With that comes the potential that people will lose their jobs. That's just a fact of life and a fact of business. And every rider knows that. And if they don't then they're ignorant.


So if Becca or Johan break a rider or sponsor contract it is no problem? The rider is just being "Ignorant" if they complain and should be more "Flexible"? Mercedes knew there was the potential that they would be driving Nissan's when they signed the deal?
User avatar Race Radio
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31 Aug 2011 20:17

Race Radio wrote:Got it, "Best interest of sponsors" does not include Mercedes. You are OK with screwing sponsors as long as they are not Brunyeel sponsors.


No, you're putting words in my mouth (as usual). Please reply to what I say, not some imaginary point you'd like to think I said.

You asked who was happier between the two, and I said Nissan. That doesn't mean that I feel Mercedes is getting screwed, nor that I believe they are unhappy.
eleven
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31 Aug 2011 20:20

Coz Boogie wrote:A few observations from a long time lurker.

1. Take the off topic discussion regarding your dislike for LA, JB, et al to an Off-Topic Thread. As someone who doesn't frequent the forum very much y'all sound like a bunch whining kids. It doesn't promote a welcoming environment to other members and guests. Now with that out of the way....

2. Regarding a possible merger. The business of cycling it to make money for sponsors. Anyone involved in any sort of business knows that your fortunes can change at any moment and that there is a need to be flexible. With that comes the potential that people will lose their jobs. That's just a fact of life and a fact of business. And every rider knows that. And if they don't then they're ignorant.

3. This potential merger is quite interesting...imagine the team dynamics if JB could create 2 to 3 squads of "Super Teams" that could be riding at any given time. There could be a Frank led team...an Andy led team, etc. I don't see RS/LT diminishing their focus on the Classics. Not with so many high profiled riders on the team...they'd need to be riding almost every week to keep their name and pictures in the press to keep the income coming in.

Just a few quick thoughts.

late,
Coz


Sponsors are there for exposure, they have no interest or stake in the financial side of the sport.
A fact of business is to put in place contracts and honor them.
User avatar Dr. Maserati
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31 Aug 2011 20:26

eleven wrote:No, you're putting words in my mouth (as usual). Please reply to what I say, not some imaginary point you'd like to think I said.

You asked who was happier between the two, and I said Nissan. That doesn't mean that I feel Mercedes is getting screwed, nor that I believe they are unhappy.


I replied to what you wrote. You have written multiple times about "Looking out for the best interests of the sponsors" Few rational people would think that Mercedes is OK if they are driving Nissan's next year or visa versa.
User avatar Race Radio
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31 Aug 2011 20:28

eleven wrote:Those two are the same. Acting in the best interest of the sponsors is the only way to get funding to act in the interest of riders.

The riders are his employees.
If he did not have sponsors lined up he should have told the riders that and let them go when they have a chance to get new teams.


eleven wrote:So Bob Stapleton wasn't acting in the best interest of his team?

I see you are giving out about RR putting "words in your mouth" - and then you write the above?

Stapleton didn't lie and say he has sponsors lined up and when he knew he could not get a sponsor he let the riders know.
Big difference between that and what appears to be going on with RS & LT.
User avatar Dr. Maserati
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31 Aug 2011 20:28

Race Radio wrote:So if Becca or Johan break a rider or sponsor contract it is no problem? The rider is just being "Ignorant" if they complain and should be more "Flexible"? Mercedes knew there was the potential that they would be driving Nissan's when they signed the deal?


I'm not here to discuss the morality of business....or lack there of. If there are riders/teams that wish to be more "rider-centric" then perhaps they should form a league of their own and/or unionize to provide them with a greater voice. Otherwise you play the cards you're dealt.

Besides, all we're doing here is speculating on a bunch of unknowns.

late,
Coz
[font=Book Antiqua]"I don't want to spend my life explaining myself. Either you get it or you don't." Frank Zappa[/font]
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User avatar Coz Boogie
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31 Aug 2011 20:32

Coz Boogie wrote:I'm not here to discuss the morality of business....or lack there of. If there are riders/teams that wish to be more "rider-centric" then perhaps they should form a league of their own and/or unionize to provide them with a greater voice. Otherwise you play the cards you're dealt.

Besides, all we're doing here is speculating on a bunch of unknowns.

late,
Coz


We are not talking about playing cards, we are talking about contracts.
User avatar Race Radio
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31 Aug 2011 20:48

Race Radio wrote:We are not talking about playing cards, we are talking about contracts.


And since we don't know the contents and language of any of the rider contracts (or sponsor contracts) it's pointless to argue in the ether about this.

late,
Coz
[font=Book Antiqua]"I don't want to spend my life explaining myself. Either you get it or you don't." Frank Zappa[/font]
........__o
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User avatar Coz Boogie
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31 Aug 2011 21:07

Coz Boogie wrote:And since we don't know the contents and language of any of the rider contracts (or sponsor contracts) it's pointless to argue in the ether about this.

late,
Coz

I would assume that riders who have contracts for next year will have "until 31st December 2012" on it somewhere.
User avatar Dr. Maserati
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31 Aug 2011 21:21

luckyboy wrote:Is the Hog going to teach them to time trial as well?


Only 'fast cadence'.
User avatar Cobblestones
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31 Aug 2011 21:37

I think both the Robbie's (McEwen and Hunter) on team RS will be moving on. That could be 2 more riders. McEwen signed on last minute this year because he didn't have a deal already. Hunter signed last minute also because of the Pegasus deal not working out. RS is not really a sprinting team anyway.
Flat Tyred
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31 Aug 2011 21:39

Race Radio wrote:So if Becca or Johan break a rider or sponsor contract it is no problem? The rider is just being "Ignorant" if they complain and should be more "Flexible"? Mercedes knew there was the potential that they would be driving Nissan's when they signed the deal?


Just wondering if the new LeOpard dining kitchen truck is a Merc...:o
User avatar mewmewmew13
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31 Aug 2011 22:21

Race Radio wrote:I replied to what you wrote. You have written multiple times about "Looking out for the best interests of the sponsors" Few rational people would think that Mercedes is OK if they are driving Nissan's next year or visa versa.


You're working under the presumption that Mercedes intended to continue their sponsorship. Do you have any evidence of that?
eleven
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31 Aug 2011 22:22

Dr. Maserati wrote:The riders are his employees.
If he did not have sponsors lined up he should have told the riders that and let them go when they have a chance to get new teams.


They DO have a chance to get new teams - and Johan has a vested interest in them finding new teams.



I see you are giving out about RR putting "words in your mouth" - and then you write the above?

Stapleton didn't lie and say he has sponsors lined up and when he knew he could not get a sponsor he let the riders know.
Big difference between that and what appears to be going on with RS & LT.


What leads you to believe RS doesn't have sponsors lined up? If you have a problem with a team not having sponsors lined up, you should talk to Becca.
eleven
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31 Aug 2011 22:42

eleven wrote:You're working under the presumption that Mercedes intended to continue their sponsorship. Do you have any evidence of that?


You are working on the presumption that they aren't. Do you have any proof of that?
Thoughtforfood
 

31 Aug 2011 22:47

eleven wrote:They DO have a chance to get new teams - and Johan has a vested interest in them finding new teams.

Most of the signing is done at the Tour - although a lot of teams waited to see what would happen with HTC.

If Bruyneel knew he had a problem (if there is one) then he should have let his employees know then.



eleven wrote:
What leads you to believe RS doesn't have sponsors lined up? If you have a problem with a team not having sponsors lined up, you should talk to Becca.

But you see (unlike you) I do mention Becca and Leopard - I wrote this earlier:
Dr. Maserati wrote:....
It seems that JB (like Leopard) don't have the sponsors lined up that can support their teams, so I cant see that as acting in anyone's best interests.
It is a mess for both teams, the riders and ultimately the sport.

Any problem you see is your's, not anyone else.
User avatar Dr. Maserati
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