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Race Design Thread

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Re: Race Design Thread

01 Jul 2015 12:35

Tour de France stage 5: Sarlat la Caneda - Bordeaux (174 km)
Another really flat stage, this time with only one single categorized climb. The stage starts in Sarlat la Caneda and finishes in Bordeaux. A bunch sprint would be almost 100% certain.

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Bordeaux:
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climbs:
La Merlin (4th cat.)
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Re: Race Design Thread

01 Jul 2015 12:52

Tour de France stage 6: Teste de Buch - Saint Jean de Luz (207 km)
The next flat stage with an extremely high chance of a bunch sprint, but its the last one before the pyrenees, so I am really looking forward to stage 7. Although the stage has a pretty boring profile it is still more interesting than the last stage IMO. Thats because the only climb of the day is much closer to the finish than yesterdays, what could also cause the one or other attack of riders who don't see a chance for their team in a bunch sprint. This climb is also the first pyrenees pass of the tour although that sounds much more difficult than it actually is.
btw there is hardly any chance for cross wind although the stage follows the coast but as far as I know the wind is always pretty slight in this area.

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Saint Jean de Luz:
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climbs:
Col de Saint Ignace (4th cat.)
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Re: Race Design Thread

01 Jul 2015 20:10

Tour de France stage 7: Saint Jean de Luz - La Pierre Saint Martin (179 km)
This year the tour de france will use "La Pierre Saint Martin" as a stage finish for the first time. Although the ASO managed to make the absolute worst out of this stage the idea of a mtf up there is pretty good. However its easy to forget that La Pierre Saint Martin is actually located on a pass, the col de la Pierre St. Martin. Of course there are many possibilities to put good climbs before the mtf if you use the finish like in this years tour, but I still prefer the route over the south side of the climb, so I present you stage 7 of my tdf.
The first real monster stage of my tour de france starts in the finishing town of stage 6, Saint Jean de Luz. After some flat the first two climbs start. The puerto de Oxtando and the Col d'Izpeguy come directly after each other and between these two passes the riders will drive through a foreign country. These two climbs would probably be very important for the building of the break away. After the descent from the Col d'Izpeguy over the spanish/french border, there is an intermediate sprint which lays on the second little flat section of the day. After this flatter section the most difficult part of the stage starts. First the riders will have to climb the Col de Burdincurucheta a first category climb which isn't that long but very very steep, especially if you consider that this is a french pass. After a short descent the Col Bagargui starts immediately. Although the climb up there is neither long nor steep the descent on a very narrow road is quite difficult and dangerous. After passing the town Larrau the most difficult challenge of the day starts. The port the larrau isn't that long and even has a two kilometer long mostly flat section during the ascent but the rest of the climb is so difficult and steep that it is still the only HC climb of the stage and the first one of the tour.
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The port de larrau has only been used twice in the tour which is a real waste of potential. Although the south ascent of the pass is in spain the vuelta and especially the tdf should use this climb more often also because the steepness is something completely unusual for france. After the descent the Alto Laza is the last little climb before a flat section. This flat section with an intermediate sprint in Uztarroz ends at the beginning of the Col de la Pierre St. Martin. The Spanish side of this climb isn't almost as difficult as the french side, which is used in this years tdf, but still difficult enough to create some time gaps. btw the profile of this climb is very similar to the port de larrau, because of the length and the flat section which comes almost on the same point at both climbs. The only difference is the steepness. The descent after the top of the climb is very short and the street is in very good condition, so the time differences at the top of the climb shouldn't change that much on the way to the finish line.
This stage would be pretty hard to predict. It is the first serious mountain stage, so the flat section before the final climb doesn't really matter, because there wont be any reason for long range attacks.

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Col de la Pierre St. Martin:
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climbs:
Puerto de Oxtando (2nd cat.)
Col d'Izpeguy (3rd cat.)
Col de Burdincurucheta (1st cat.)
Col Bagargui (3rd cat.)
Port de Larrau (HC)
Alto Laza (4th cat.)
Col de la Pierre St. Martin (1st cat.)

ps: sorry if there are some spelling or grammar mistakes, I just didnt want to read throuth the whole text again :o
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01 Jul 2015 20:45

Nice, I've designed a TdF stage that I haven't posted that finishes on the Alto Laza after Larrau.
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Re: Race Design Thread

02 Jul 2015 16:44

Tour de France stage 8: Oloron Sainte Marie - Superbagneres (211 km)
The most difficult mtf of the tour comes pretty early. When I designed this tour one of my main objectives was to use climbs which aren't very common in the tour, in the last few years. While my penultimate climb, the port de bales, is almost overused in the near past, the climb to Superbagneres is an almost forgotten legend. First used in 1961 we now haven't seen this climb for 26 years. btw you might ask why I used the port the bales as the penultimate climb instead of the peyresourde because there are many more climbs you could use before the peyresourde. The answer is something completely personal: I just wanted to have a double HC combination in my tour.

To amount to the route, the stage starts in Oloron Sainte Marie. The biggest part of the stage is mostly flat with only some uncategorized bumps at the beginning an intermediate sprint and some easy climbs in the middle of the stage. there are exactly 3 of these easy climbs, two of them 4th category and a 3rd category climb, the col de Coupé. The first real challenge of the day is the already mentioned port de bales. This climb was paved extra for the tdf. It was used for the first time in 2007 and after that very regularly in 2010, 2012 and 2014. While the bottom of the ascent is very flat it gets steeper and steeper the nearer the riders come to the top of the climb.
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The descent is pretty technical because of some serpentines and a narrow street. After the descent there is hardly any flat and the climbing starts again directly after the riders pass the city "bagneres de luchon". The climb to Superbagneres is definitely comparable to the port the bales because it also gets steeper and steeper. IMO a real challenge I would love to see in a tour de france again.

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Superbagneres:
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climbs:
Loucrup (4th cat.)
Couret (4th cat.)
Col de Coupé (3rd cat.)
Port de Bales (HC)
Superbagneres (HC)
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02 Jul 2015 21:37

Stage 4 Lebanon - Intervale; 182,9km
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The stage starts in Lebanon and the first 70km are false flat, then we have 6,7km at 6% on the Sawyer highway.
The road is wide and the descent is your typical gentle descent on wide roads.
After 11km of false flat the next climb starts, Kancamagus Pass on the Kancamagus Highway, 12,9km at 3,8% but wuth 2km at 7,2%.
After the descent we have 50km of false flat, then the final climb of the day starts, the eastern side of Hurricane Mountain rd, 4,1km at 8,3% but the final 2,7km are at 11%.
The short steep descent takes place on a narrow road and shouldn't be underestimated, it's not a road with many hairpins but a steep descent on narrow roads can always create some problems.
The final 3km are false flat and will bring the riders to Intervale.
It's not the hardest stage in the world, but the final climb with the descent on narrow roads should create some gaps
Hurricane Mountain rd:
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03 Jul 2015 06:15

Stage 5 Jackson - Mount Washington; 247,1km
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The queenstage of this race features the obvious monster MTF, it's a hard climb for a race like this one, but we still have a final ITT to balance things out.
The race starts in Jackson nh and after 2,6km we have the first short climb, 1,5km at 8% on the Glen Ledge rd.
After that the next climb is the Crawford Notch rd, 3,2km at 5% with 400m at 8%.
After that we have lots, of false flat, the riders will ride on the [url=images/appalachianviews/appalachianviews1411/appalachianviews141101362/33890578-Autumn-color-on-Owls-Head-Highway-in-White-Mountain-National-Forest-New-Hampshire--Stock-Photo.jpg]Owls head Highway[/url]
After 95km we reach Gorham, then the next climb on the White Mountain rd starts, mostly false flat but the final 1,6km are at 5%, but the final and we come very close to Mount Washington but we won't climb it right now, we'll ride southwards to Jackson and ride the whole circuit one again until we meet the Monster for the 2nd time.
After 235km of racing the agony starts, Mount Washington, the American Zoncolan, 12km at 11,9% with 22% steep ramps, this will be heaven for the lightweight climbers and torture for the rest.
After such a long stage we could see big gaps on such a hard climb, if you aren't a pure climber you have to climb such a monster at your own pace or you'll crack and loose way more time.
Mount Washington is also known because it's such a windy climb, hurricane-force wind gusts are observed from the summit of the mountain on average of 110 days per year. I know, that sounds a little bit extreme but it shouldn't be such a big problem durning the warmer months and we also climb Ventoux.
You also have to consider that most of the storms happen durning the winter early spring/late autumn, so it shouldn't be such a big problem for a bike race that takes place in the warmer months.
Mount Washington:
Image
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Re: Race Design Thread

03 Jul 2015 10:00

Today my holidays started so now I have a lot of time for:
Tour de France stage 9: Bagneres de Luchon - Foix (194 km)
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Am I the only one who still is angry on the ASO for the Limoux-Foix stage 2012? This extra lap around foix is still about the most stupid thing I have ever seen in a gt, especially because the col de peguere actually would be one of the most interesting climbs in france.
We start in Bagneres de Luchon. The first climb starts almost immediately after the start and is the col du portillon, the first 1st category climb of the day (by far not the last) and a link to spain. However the route wont be in the foreign country for a long time because the route heads northwards again to arrive at the bottom of the col de mente. This is maybe already the most difficult climb of the day because of its steepness. What is for sure is that the col de mente is the most famous pass of the day. After the steep 2nd category climb "Col de Portet d'Aspet" and a short flat section the longest, but also flattest climb of the day, the Col de la Core, starts. After the descent there is an intermediate sprint in Seix followed by some false flat which leads to the Col de Latrape, the next 2nd category climb of the day. After the descent the already 4th first category climb of the day, the Col d'Agnes starts. This combination of climbs from the Col de Portet d'Aspet to the Col d'Agnes was used in the exact same way in the tour the france stage 2011, which finished on the Plateau de Beille.
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However at this point the route changes because the riders don't have to climb the port de lers, like in 2011. First there is a pretty long and at the end also flat descent leading to the city Massat. Then the climb to the Col de Peguere starts. As I already mentioned, I really really like this pass and that for several reasons. First of all, I like the scenario, with the very narrow roads in the middle of the wood, which is a little bit like the mortirolo. The second and more important reason is the steepness of the last 3 km´s of the climb, with almost 13% (!!!). However the long and flat descent to Foix might destroy the action on this final climb, which is a little bit sad, but still its the best possibility to use the col de peguere.

Col de Peguere:
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Foix:
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climbs:
Col du Portillon (1st cat.)
Col de Menté (1st cat.)
Col de Portet d'Aspet (2nd cat.)
Col de la Core (1st cat.)
Col de Latrape (2nd cat.)
Col d'Agnes (1st cat.)
Col de Peguere (1st cat.)
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03 Jul 2015 10:04

So not only did my previous Tour have the exact same last 100km of stage 7, my stage 9 was 100% identical with your stage 9 :eek:

I guess that says a lot about the Pyrenees that even the alternative routes are so similar.
Cancellara is like The Black Album. Really good but way overrated.
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Re:

03 Jul 2015 10:18

Netserk wrote:So not only did my previous Tour have the exact same last 100km of stage 7, my stage 9 was 100% identical with your stage 9 :eek:

I guess that says a lot about the Pyrenees that even the alternative routes are so similar.

god damnit thats means that 2 out of 9 stages are already on this forum :(
Edit: Okay I searched for your race and found it. First of all, no more stages which have a strong similarity to your stages (except stage 21 but that shouldn't be a surprise). However I realized that there were 2 more stages in week one which are extremely similar to that race you designed: 1.) the stage to bordeaux is something you also created, with the only difference that mine is shorter and I choose another street at one point. 2.) You also created a stage, starting in Teste de Buch with almost exactly the same streets used as I did, with the only difference that you finished the stage in Bayonne, where I had an intermediate sprint.
I swear, coincidence :o
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Re: Race Design Thread

03 Jul 2015 12:16

Tour de France stage 10: Toulouse - Gramat (204 km)
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The end of my first week was extremely hard. So hard that I think its good that there firstly is a rather easy stage in addition to the rest day. Especially the first part of the day, after the start in Toulouse is very flat. The intermediate sprint in Montauban is probably the only highlight in the first half of the stage. The second intermediate sprint in Limogne en Quercy is also before the first categorized mountain but on a place where some bumps already were taken. However the first and most difficult challenge of the day comes 16 km later and it is the 3rd category climb to Nougayrac. After the descent there is only a short flat section before the second climb of the day to Gazals. After this climb the route first flattens out but becomes very hilly a little bit later on. However most of these little hills are too small for a categorized climb, with the exception of the "Grotte des Merveilles" only 8 kilometers before the finish line. These 8 k´s aren't that flat too, with a little bump shortly before Gramat.

Gramat:
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climbs:
Nougayrac (3rd cat.)
Gazais (4th cat.)
Grotte des Merveilles (4th cat.)
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Re: Re:

03 Jul 2015 12:25

Gigs_98 wrote:
Netserk wrote:So not only did my previous Tour have the exact same last 100km of stage 7, my stage 9 was 100% identical with your stage 9 :eek:

I guess that says a lot about the Pyrenees that even the alternative routes are so similar.

god damnit thats means that 2 out of 9 stages are already on this forum :(
Edit: Okay I searched for your race and found it. First of all, no more stages which have a strong similarity to your stages (except stage 21 but that shouldn't be a surprise). However I realized that there were 2 more stages in week one which are extremely similar to that race you designed: 1.) the stage to bordeaux is something you also created, with the only difference that mine is shorter and I choose another street at one point. 2.) You also created a stage, starting in Teste de Buch with almost exactly the same streets used as I did, with the only difference that you finished the stage in Bayonne, where I had an intermediate sprint.
I swear, coincidence :o

It is bound to happen when so many stages are designed. I remember how I thought my Biche/Grand Colombier/Clergeon/Rumilly combo was a great innovation, only for later to find out that rghysens had done the exact same before me :O
Cancellara is like The Black Album. Really good but way overrated.
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Re: Race Design Thread

03 Jul 2015 13:26

Tour de France stage 11: Aurillac - Station Mont Dore (207 km)
There are many reasons why I don't like the last tdf routes. They use the same climbs too often, they use too many mtf's and one of the things I hate the most: They use the low mountain ranges extremely poorly. To be honest the way they used the vosges last year was great and they also had a very good jura stage 2012 (no not the grand colombier stage I mean the other one) but you can count the number of good central massive stages of the last 10 years with one hand (at the moment there isn't one single stage coming to my mind) and thats a pity. The area of the central massif is huge and the number of good climbs there seems to be endless, the only problems there are the lack of really difficult climbs (although there would be enough they just aren't as near to each other as the high alp/pyrenees passes) and the fact that there are also some areas in the massif central which don't have that many climbs (although thats not really a problem IMO). However I think this stage shows how great tdf stages in the massif central could be.
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The start of the stage is in Aurillac. The first few kilometers are already uphill but the first categorized climb, the Col de Légal, comes not until 26.3 km´s. There is hardly any flat on the next 60 kilometers and there are also 3 categorized mountains on this section of the stage, but I am just too lazy to talk about all of them. The first flat section is about 13 km´s long and ends with the start of the climb to Mérgiot. On the next 40 k´s after this climb the riders mostly have to face a long false flat section. This part of the race stops with the Col de la Geneste. (which is mostly the more famous climb to Super Besse) On the descent of this climb there is the only intermediate sprint of the stage, located in Picherande. As soon as this long descent finishes the hardest part of the day starts. Peubret is the first climb in this section, which is pretty flat but still at least 3rd category. The descent from this climb is completely irregular and with some bumps which will surely hurt the riders. When the riders arrive in the valley the rest of the stage is completely up and down. The Col de la Croix Monard and the Col de la Croix St. Robert come directly after each other and the second one, the Col de la Croix St. Robert is the most difficult climb of the day. Once again there is no flat after the descent because the easy mtf to the Station Mont Dore starts. This climb wouldn't create huge time gaps but if there is gc contender in troubles on the penultimate climb the time differences still could be very big.

Col de la Croix St. Robert:
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Station Mont Dore:
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climbs:
Col de Légal (3rd cat.)
Salers (3rd cat.)
Veysset (3rd cat.)
Leybros (4th cat.)
Mérgiot (3rd cat.)
Col de la Geneste (4th cat.)
Peubret (3rd cat.)
Col de la Croix Monard (3rd cat.)
Col de la Croix St. Robert (2nd cat.)
Station Mont Dore (3rd cat.)
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Re: Re:

03 Jul 2015 16:40

Netserk wrote:
Gigs_98 wrote:
Netserk wrote:So not only did my previous Tour have the exact same last 100km of stage 7, my stage 9 was 100% identical with your stage 9 :eek:

I guess that says a lot about the Pyrenees that even the alternative routes are so similar.

god damnit thats means that 2 out of 9 stages are already on this forum :(
Edit: Okay I searched for your race and found it. First of all, no more stages which have a strong similarity to your stages (except stage 21 but that shouldn't be a surprise). However I realized that there were 2 more stages in week one which are extremely similar to that race you designed: 1.) the stage to bordeaux is something you also created, with the only difference that mine is shorter and I choose another street at one point. 2.) You also created a stage, starting in Teste de Buch with almost exactly the same streets used as I did, with the only difference that you finished the stage in Bayonne, where I had an intermediate sprint.
I swear, coincidence :o

It is bound to happen when so many stages are designed. I remember how I thought my Biche/Grand Colombier/Clergeon/Rumilly combo was a great innovation, only for later to find out that rghysens had done the exact same before me :O

And of course, many combinations are known to long-term traceurs, and route ideas are of course not infinite! I once designed what I thought was a really nice stage in Andalucía, going south from Granada climbing Collado Canseco (extremely inconsistent), descending to the coast and climbing Haza del Lino (legit HC), descending and then having the easier (10km @ 5,5%) Alto de Conjuros before descending into Motril to finish. I posted it as stage 12 of the 2nd of my many Vueltas to date in this thread... and not long after discovered an absolutely identical stage in a Vuelta designed by Viskovitz (an occasional poster here, but a long-term contributor to APM, PRC and other related traceur resources in Spanish).
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03 Jul 2015 17:01

Especially when we often share the same idea of what a good route is and try to optimize it for those criteria.
Cancellara is like The Black Album. Really good but way overrated.
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Yesterday 12:30

Sorry for the two week delay - we had just gone over to Oropa, before that we had Lanzo Torinese and Sestriere.

STAGE 16: VARESE - PIAN DELLE BETULLE 182.1km -- MOUNTAINS & MTF
Stage 16 starts off in the city of Varese, before heading to our final excursion out of Italy, a very short one to Mendrisio in Switzerland. After 40km we head through the narrow roads of Como, crashes will be possible and positioning here is key. It is a very flat start to the stage, and so the breakaway will probably be weak.
A lovely scenic route alongside Lago di Como, opposite George Clooney's house, precedes the first climb of the day - Colma di Sormano. This climb is better known for coming up the other way, and the Muro di Sormano in the Tour of Lombardy. This will create a very, very tricky descent taken at a very slow speed until Sormano, when it is less steep and wider.

Colma di Sormano:
Image

Now we reach Lecco, the other of the two branches and there we stay right next to the lake again until we reach Varenna, and head up the Esino Lario. The climb is actually pretty easy until you reach the town, then stiffens out at over 10% for the last km or so, and that is what makes it a 1st category climb. A long winded descent comes next, taking us into a parallel valley before moving the riders back to the lake, to the town of Bellano. Here we climb the Alpe di Paglio. However, I have split it up into two distinct parts. The climb to Narro is a second category climb, the the climb to Pian delle Betulle another. In the latter we pass Paglio, but keep going. The first art is irregular, long but easy. Not steep, only reaching 12% in some places. This could be the launch pad to some attacks, but it is unlikely. The next part is beastly. After the descent it is straight up for 7.km at 9.4%, including a 2.7km stretch at 12.7%. I'm not huge fan of big MTFs but I believe it is important to have at least one, and this is it for this Giro (there were a few easier ones before and one easier one to come, as well as an MTT). Anyway, I think this stage will provide plenty of entertainment, especially after such a hard Giro already.

Profile:
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Map:
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Finish:
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Re: Race Design Thread

Yesterday 13:24

the descent from the colma di sormano is certainly not easy but the famous steep ramp which was used in the giro de lombardia is a little street beside the normal street, so I think the descent wont be as slow as you think.
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Re: Race Design Thread

Yesterday 13:34

Gigs_98 wrote:the descent from the colma di sormano is certainly not easy but the famous steep ramp which was used in the giro de lombardia is a little street beside the normal street, so I think the descent wont be as slow as you think.

Oh right my bad, I didnt know that, thanks. That's probably a good thing, descending at 25% is f***ing dangerous. 10% less so.
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Re: Race Design Thread

Yesterday 14:10

Brullnux wrote:
Gigs_98 wrote:the descent from the colma di sormano is certainly not easy but the famous steep ramp which was used in the giro de lombardia is a little street beside the normal street, so I think the descent wont be as slow as you think.

Oh right my bad, I didnt know that, thanks. That's probably a good thing, descending at 25% is f***ing dangerous. 10% less so.

no problem, great stage by the way
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Re: Race Design Thread

Yesterday 14:30

Tour de France stage 12: Clermont Ferrand - Autun (216 km)
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After the "hill top finish" on stage 11 there is another central massif stage on stage 13. However this one is by far easier also because the first 170 km´s are almost completely flat. The start of the stage is in Clermont Ferrand, with the almost mentioned 170 flat k´s following. There are two intermediate sprints in this part of the stage, the first one in Vichy and the second one in Bourbon Lancy. the first climb of the day goes up to "le Foudon". This climb is pretty flat but long enough to be 3rd category. After the top of the climb there is only a short descent because of a little bump interrupting the downhill section. However, when the descending finally stops, there is a short flat section before the second and final climb of the day starts. The climb to Marmentux is probably not difficult enough to create time gaps between the gc contenders but it should be difficult enough to cause attacks out of the peloton, with the goal to prevent a bunch sprint. Maybe its even more likely that this climb is reason enough for many sprint teams to just let the stage go to the break. After a very technical descent the stage finishes in Autun.

Autun:
Image

climbs:
Le Foudon (3rd cat.)
Marmentux (3rd cat.)
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