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Race Design Thread

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Re: Race Design Thread

04 Jul 2015 17:53

Tour de France stage 13: Autun - Bourbonne les Bains (188 km)
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Stage 13 and one of the last flat stages of this tour. This time I will make it short. The start is in Autun, the finish in Bourbonne les Bains. On the way to the finish line there are hardly any climbs, only two fourth category climbs to Rue St. Leger and Coiffy le Haut, the rest is pretty much completely flat. There are also two intermediate sprints in Annay le Duc and Villegusien le Lac. This is definitely a classical sprint stage. The second climb comes only 5 km´s before the finish but I think even that climb isn't difficult enough to prevent a sprint although it could make the finish more interesting.

Bourbonne les Bains:
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climbs:
Rue St. Leger (4th cat.)
Coiffy le Haut (4th cat.)
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Re: Race Design Thread

04 Jul 2015 19:04

Tour de France stage 14: Bourbonne les Bains - Guebwiller (198 km)
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The next mountain stage and the next stage in a low mountain range. This time the route goes through the vosges. The first 80 km´s of the stage are almost completely flat with the intermediate sprint in Luxeuil les Bains as the only highlight. The first categorized climb of the day is the 3rd category Col des Croix, after 92 km´s. Btw the actual Col des Croix gets passed before this little downhill section, you can see on the profile. I actually don't know how the top of the climb is really called. After the descent there is an intermediate sprint in Le Thillot on a false flat section before the next pass. This next pass is the second most difficult one of the day, the Ballon d'Alsace. This is a climb which was used in the first mountain stage of the tour the france history. After the descent there is again a part which is pretty flat. However as soon as the Col du Hundsrück, (btw how many of you knew that Hundsrück translated into german means dogback :D ) the penultimate climb of the day, starts, there is hardly any flat until the finish line. The reason for that is the Grand Ballon, which starts directly after the descent form the dogback pass. IMO the Grand Ballon is like the Tourmalet of the vosges because it is the highest pass of the mountain range (I know the tourmalet isn't the highest pass of the pyrenees but the highest one in the overused tdf area) and it lays very central. I categorized the Grand Ballon with HC although I think it actually is a 1st category climb. However I think the border between 1st cat. and HC is blurred and a HC climb grades the vosges up, a little bit. The descent from the grand ballon is very irregular and it flattens out at the end. However attacks by gc contenders are absolutely possible. The finish is located in the beautiful town Guebwiller.

Grand Ballon:
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Guebwiller:
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climbs:
Col des Croix (3rd cat.)
Ballon d'Alsace (1st cat.)
Col du Hundsrück (3rd cat.)
Grand Ballon (HC)
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05 Jul 2015 05:46

Sorry, I realise that is probably the wrong thread but not sure where else to put it. Something from yesterday got me thinking....someone mentioned that one of the teams had lights on their bikes for some sort of marketing reason. Would it be feasible to have a nighttime non-technical time-trial of a similar length to yesterday's? Has anything like that every happened? I remember there was a Vuelta stage a couple of years ago that was in the evening, which was quite good, but what about a full-blown afterdark stage where the riders have got to have lights? It would be like scenes from Le Mans. I appreciate there's a safety issue, but if it's a non-technical time trial I think it could be minimised.
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05 Jul 2015 09:52

IIRC the TTT in the 2010 Vuelta was pretty damn close to being at night. If there isn't a restday the day after, it doesn't make any sense to have it any later than that.
Cancellara is like The Black Album. Really good but way overrated.
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05 Jul 2015 10:38

I have a new project prepared for after this Giro, but it's not the right time to post it I guess. It's something different to pretty much everything I've posted in here to date. I've just got to choose which version to go with or to post both back to back. Back to the Giro for week 2 though.

Stage 10: Termoli - Caserta, 197km

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GPM:
Boccà della Selva (cat.2) 15,9km @ 4,7%
Muro di Squille (cat.4) 0,9km @ 14,0%
Caserta Vecchia (cat.4) 6,9km @ 4,3%

The first day after the first rest day is a tricky one, but is mostly designed for the breakaway, rather like the Imola stage this year that was won by Ilnur Zakarin. It's rumbling and hilly but I don't expect too many GC moves here, though the final climb being just 11km from the line may tempt some peripheral contenders to see if they can gain anything.

This stage sees us hit our southernmost point in this Giro (yes...) as we traverse the ankle of the boot from the Adriatic toward Campania. The first half of the stage is pretty much consistent slight uphill as we head up through the valleys, the most notable geographical feature being the Lago di Guardialfiera - we will be riding those bridges. The main obstacle for the day is Boccà della Selva/Sella del Perrone, a long but relatively uncomplicated climb adjacent to the Campitello Matese climb that has hosted a number of MTFs in the Giro's history.

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This is unlikely to be decisive other than perhaps removing some of the less adept climbers from the breakaway. The second half of the stage features a number of small climbs and rolling slopes, but only a couple are categorized. After passing through Castel Campagnano I have categorized the short but incredibly steep ramp up to the Centro l'Oasi in Frazione Squille - the "Muro di Squille". It's not an especially well-known cycling road but this is ungodly steep. Very short, not typical for the Giro to categorize this kind of ascent, but given the Aia-like gradients it justifies it. The intermediate sprint has been located at the top of another short but less steep ascent, in Caiazzo. Then we have the final climb, where moves for the stage win from the break are likely to be made. The overall statistics being around 7km at a little over 4% make it seem less threatening than it is; it's actually about 4km @ 6%, then a flattened out period before a final ramp of a kilometre at around 7,5% into the medieval hilltop town of Caserta Vecchia; we then descend fairly gradually but technically into Caserta proper with its legendary palatial grounds to finish. Could a GC rider give this a go? Maybe, in view of the stages to come, but they aren't likely to spend their energy chasing a non-threatening GC break here... maybe it's a day for the break to take the maglia rosa for a bit with a reasonable punchy type rider but not one likely to threaten in the huge climbs?

Termoli:
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Caserta:
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User avatar Libertine Seguros
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05 Jul 2015 11:11

Stage 11: Caserta - Anzio, 179km

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Traguardo Volanti:
Terracina, 119,5km

What can I say about this one? Not a great deal. This is the penultimate real sprinter's stage of the Giro, though the more durable ones may have something to say about a couple of other stages; the stage has been placed all along the coast of the Tyrrhenian Sea in the hope that crosswinds may affect it but the weather would need to play ball; if not, it's a straightforward flat stage to give the riders some respite as they head into the middle of the race. I know the Giro normally likes to have a tricky transitional stage on stage 11, but I think with some tough mountain stages having been used early in the race, it's important for balance that we throw a bone to the rouleurs here - the second week is not mainly about mountains in this route, as I'm trying to spread them out. Therefore there's zero transfer from yesterday's stage, and a finish on the coast south of Rome in the city perhaps best known for being the landing point of a major Allied amphibian military operation in 1944. Until then... at least the roads will be scenic, since we all love a bit of Italian coastal scenery, right?

Anzio:
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05 Jul 2015 12:14

Stage 12: Civitavecchia - Assisi, 188km

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GPM:
Sella di Viepri (cat.4) 7,8km @ 3,8%
Assisi (cat.4) 4,0km @ 4,8%

Traguardo Volanti:
Foligno, 169km

It is widely agreed by cycling fans that the 2012 Giro is among the absolute dirt worst Grand Tours ever raced. Right up there with the 2009 Tour, in fact, an absolute travesty of a race where nobody wanted to win until they had already lost. However, it is also widely agreed by cycling fans that one of the few good things about that appalling Giro was the stage finish in Assisi, a double-stepped climb which featured scenic churches, Roman architecture, pavé, hairpins and gradients up to 15% - more or less anything you could want from a short climb, Assisi gave you a bit of it, spread over two separate ascents.

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The race was won, rather predictably, by Joaquím Rodríguez, at that point the pre-eminent puncheur in the world, with Gilbert struggling to recapture his world-beating form of 2011 (and not racing the Giro anyway). Relive the stage (if you dare to wish to remember the 2012 Giro) here. The gaps were not huge, but then they don't have to be. I've split the race up more than they had in 2012 by this point by virtue of the ITT, Monti Pallidi and Monte Petrano stages (not to mention Chieti), so perhaps racing can be more aggressive, and if not you still get an exciting and beautiful finale. My stage is an almost complete carbon copy of the 2012 stage, save for slightly shortening the run from Foligno to the final climb, and moving the intermediate sprint to Foligno, much closer to the finish, to tempt people into a bonus second battle. Otherwise it's the same - week 2 therefore so far has had an intermediate stage aimed at the break, a flat stage and a puncheur stage for GC guys to think about small time gaps. There's plenty more of interest to come, but here the GC racing can be kept to a relatively short period.

Civitavecchia:
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Assisi:
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05 Jul 2015 17:42

GIRO D'ITALIA STAGE 17: SAN PELLEGRINO TERME - APRICA 198.5km -- MOUNTAIN &MTF
The penultimate mass start mountain stage of this Giro. As you might've guessed from the finish town, we are going over the Mortirolo today :D, as well as some other bumps as well. The Mortirolo is definitely not over-used in my opinion, once every couple of years is perfect. I wanted to make a Giro with all pf the hardest famous climbs in the final week. he first couple included less well known ones, for example Partenio and the side of Catria from Caprile I used which frankly barely exists, but in the final week I have used more well known ones like Agnello, Finestre, Bielmonte, Izoard, Oropa (unusual side, but still), Sormano (unusual side once again) and some still to come tomorrow and on Saturday.


The day starts off in the small town of San Pellegrino Terme, before going straight up the fantastically named Passo di Zucca Trinita. Not that steep, it is 10km at 6%, it is enough to get the legs going and sort out a strong break. The march west continues through the valley between the Alpi Orobie and the Alto Sebino. Our second test of the day comes almost 50km into the day up the Passo Presolana. 10km at about 6%, it is very similar in difficulty to the first climb, and should not be that selective. This is not the side used in 2008, but the easier side from Rovetta. However the steep descent is on pretty wide roads (relative to the alps) and is very untechnical.

Passo Presolana
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After the descent comes another climb, Passo del Vivione. This climb starts at Dezzo di Scalve and I ranked it a 1st category climb, mainly because it is 20km long. The asphalt here is pretty poor and the road is narrow, so the climb is much more selective than numbers might suppose. The first 4.8km are at 6.7%, before a 7km long false flat, which rises very little, and even includes a descent. The last 8km, however, stiffens up and reaches 12% straight away before going through 14 hairpins on a road that is uncannily similar to the Mortirolo, narrow, through the woods, just less steep. Having said that, the last 8.5km average 9%.

The climb
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Then we done, then Aprica were the last reaming domestiques will try to position their leaders as well as possible before the Mortirolo. Then, all hell breaks loose for the riders. nothing goes right from now on. Will there be a fantastic ride like Contador's this year up it, or will the main contenders suffer like Aru as the gradient reaches over 18%. A mythical climb will seem like it never ends for the riders up it's narrow wooded road.With plenty of climbing in their legs already, over 4000m, this will be even harder.

Mortirolo
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The riders will go over it completely empty in groups of 2 or 4, maybe the descent will join them up if they are going solo. An intermediate sprint will greet them at Edolo, and a few bonus seconds with it, although they will feel like nothing compared to the gaps at the end of the hard stages of this Giro. The final 18km false flat to Aprica is the only thing between them and the next stage. Attacks on this are hard, but possible, like Landa showed. After 5600 meters of climbing, which is 2000m off the top for this Giro on stage 13, the legs will be tired. But the Giro continues for a beautiful stage in the dolomites tomorrow.

Profile:
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Map:
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Brullnux
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Re: Race Design Thread

05 Jul 2015 20:41

Tour de France stage 15: Mulhouse - Yverdon les Bains (235 km)
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The longest stage of the tour as well as one of the most difficult with not less than 10 categorized climbs. The start is in Mulhouse a town which was used several times in vosges stages. The last time mulhouse hosted a stage was last year when tony martin won with an impressive solo ride. The first kilometers are rather flat, however that changes after 35 km´s when the first climb up to Ferette starts. The next one to Brochritti follows directly and after a short descent another uncategorized bump begins. The next two climbs, the Col des Rangiers and Montenol are the first 3rd category climbs of the stage. Again after the descent the next climb starts immediately. Montfaucon is not only the first 2nd category climb of the stage it is also a classical jura climb: First the ascent, then a flat section on the top and then the descent. And (what a surprise) after the descent the next climbs start immediately. I wrote climbs because the descent between "Les Joux Derríere" and the beginning of the climb to "Fontaines" is only a few kilometers long and hardly worth mentioning. After the descent from Fontaines there is the only intermediate sprint of the day, which is located in Neuchatel. After this intermediate sprint the hardest test of the day starts. The Col de la Tourne maybe doesn't have the highest average elevation gain but it is pretty long and has some steep sections so it is the only 1st category climb of the day.
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The descent of this pass is pretty strange. First there is a short downhill section, then a short flat section followed by a little ascent which again is followed by a long descent. Between the end of this descent and the start of the next climb is a little bit of flat. However the beginning of the ascent up to Creux du Van is really steep and difficult. Unluckily the climb flattens out at the top but it still is 2nd category. The next descent is by far the longest one of the stage and it is again followed by a flat section. The final climb of the day goes up to Fontanezier. The ascent is short so it is only 3rd category which means I wouldn't expect attacks by gc contenders. Before the riders arrive in Yverdon les Bains there is another flat section, which again could prevent attacks by gc contenders, but however that wouldn't change the fact that guys who just want to win stages could make a fireworks on this day. I think this is one of the classical "you cannot win the tour on this stage, but you can loose it" stages. Probably the stage would go to the break, and I would really love to see the battle in the break for the stage win (and probably also the fight for the polka dot jersey)

Yverdon les Bains:
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climbs:
Ferette (4th cat.)
Brochritti (4th cat.)
Col des Rangiers (3rd cat.)
Montenol (3rd cat.)
Montfaucon (2nd cat.)
Les Joux Derriere (2nd cat.)
Fontaines (3rd cat.)
La Tourne (1st cat.)
Creux du Van (2nd cat.)
Fontanezier (3rd cat.)
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05 Jul 2015 23:38

Start somewhere in Switzerland and you could make that a one-day Classic based on the second half alone. Put it in the Lombardia build up. People will ride.
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Re:

06 Jul 2015 06:58

Libertine Seguros wrote:Start somewhere in Switzerland and you could make that a one-day Classic based on the second half alone. Put it in the Lombardia build up. People will ride.

And never want to ride it again!

The Tour of Britain i'm doing is being transfered (via remapping) to Croneascalada. I dont have that much time at the moment, but I should start posting later this month.
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06 Jul 2015 09:52

Hey guys, just come across this thread and I love it! I write a blog that has an element of "fantasy" race-design. I designed a Tour de France route that featured no stages over 200km and an average stage length of less than 150km. I'll work out a way of uploading it to here but you can have a look on the blog as well - http://bikeroutehub.blogspot.co.uk/2015/05/tour-de-france-2018-stages-p-2.html

Also, can someone let me know how they got the Tour de France style profile designs?
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06 Jul 2015 10:01

Cancellara is like The Black Album. Really good but way overrated.
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Re:

06 Jul 2015 11:42

cellardoor wrote:Sorry, I realise that is probably the wrong thread but not sure where else to put it. Something from yesterday got me thinking....someone mentioned that one of the teams had lights on their bikes for some sort of marketing reason. Would it be feasible to have a nighttime non-technical time-trial of a similar length to yesterday's? Has anything like that every happened? I remember there was a Vuelta stage a couple of years ago that was in the evening, which was quite good, but what about a full-blown afterdark stage where the riders have got to have lights? It would be like scenes from Le Mans. I appreciate there's a safety issue, but if it's a non-technical time trial I think it could be minimised.


This has already been done, not surprisingly in the Giro. The prologue in 2005 was ridden under artificial light. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iEXQsSKaiC0
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Re: Race Design Thread

06 Jul 2015 12:08

Tour de France stage 16: Bellegarde sur Valserine - Annecy ITT (60 km)
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The first stage of this tour already was an ITT, however since that there were no more TT kilometers. On stage 16 that changes with a massive individual time trial from Bellegarde sur Valserine to Annecy. 60 km´s with three categorized climbs. This mixture will create huge time gaps. Moreover there are some sections which are extremely technical, especially with TT bikes. Even if there had been very defensive racing in the first two weeks, now there would be time gaps, big enough to guarantee attacks in the alp stages.
btw, I know many people prefer ITT´s after the last mountain stage because you can never be sure how much time you will loose/get in an ITT, especially in such a long one. However in my opinion if a rider knows how much time he has to get in a mountain stage, this can also make the race very interesting (moreover its easier to calculate what a rider has to do when you know exactly how much time he has to get, which I personally really like)

Bellegarde sur Valserine:
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Annecy:
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climbs:
Les Bachats (4th cat.)
Clermont (3rd cat.)
Ferrière (3rd cat.)
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06 Jul 2015 15:42

How will the points be worked out for the climbs?
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Re:

06 Jul 2015 16:15

lemon cheese cake wrote:How will the points be worked out for the climbs?

In the same way the points are worked out in other gt´s. I actually don't know how that works but as far as I know its normal that mountain points are given to the riders in time trials.
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Re: Race Design Thread

06 Jul 2015 16:18

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I created a start for Giro d'Italia, a total of four stages. I'm not doing any further.

Giro d'Italia has had multiple starts outside Italy recently and those have meant early rest day to accomodate long transfers. So I decided to do another foreign start, but without the need of rest and transfer day.

Thus, I decided to put the start at Zagreb and have three stages in Croatia and Slovenia. One entirely in Croatia, one getting past the border and one entirely in Slovenia. To have better use of Croatian roads, the race starts with mass start stage just like Tour de France has done four times in the last decade. Also, the race includes a very early 30-kilometre individual time trial once the riders have returned to Italy.
Finn84
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Re: Re:

06 Jul 2015 16:28

Gigs_98 wrote:
lemon cheese cake wrote:How will the points be worked out for the climbs?

In the same way the points are worked out in other gt´s. I actually don't know how that works but as far as I know its normal that mountain points are given to the riders in time trials.

It's normally done with the Time Splits. So it's probably best to get rid of the Time spits, and just put them with the climbs.
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07 Jul 2015 08:10

The time has come for my race design challenge, people!

The idea is fairly simple. As you surely know, the 2017 Giro will be in fact the 100th edition. As such, everyone expects a route which has to be "meaningful" for the history and tradition of the Giro and/or Italy itself.

You'll have to design your own 100th Giro.

The rules are the following:
- Start and finish must be placed in Italy
- Can't have more than 2 stages abroad
- All the stupid UCI constraints are in effect. I want a believable route. If you need, you can ask the jury for an exception.
- Transfers of more than 75 kms can be made only during rest days

The jury:
- I'll be part of it :p
- I'm looking for a couple more members. If you want to apply, just send me a PM. I will announce the jury as soon as it is decided.
- Keep in mind that jury members will not compete, so if you wanna design a Giro, you can't be part of the jury

The competition:
Every participant will post one stage every other day. The jury will assign points to the best routes the day after each round. This system will hopefully encourage people to care about the progression of their stages and prevent overly backloaded routes. And it will add suspence to the competition ;) The points to be assigned will increase in the third week, and the last votation will have the highest number of points to assign. But even so, you don't want to fall back at the beginning.

I will post more details once I have a better idea of how many members are participating.

If you want to participate as a contestant, sign up on this thread or PM me. I will keep a list of players in this post.

The showcase will start on Monday, August 3rd, when all players will have to post their stage 1 (the deadline will be at midnight UTC time). On Tuesday 4th the jury will assign the first points, and on the 5th it'll be time for stage 2 and so on.

You basically have the whole tdf to plan your route ;) Good luck!
A race that doesn't give an attacker the chance to finish it off alone is not a race anymore.


Bronze Medal at the Great Grand Tour Game 2012

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