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Re:

13 Feb 2019 18:52

macbindle wrote:Happy to talk to Murray's co-author, if you will pay for a medium and a ouija board.

Happy to talk about Murray's ideas too. Actually, I have been, but you haven't been listening because for you criticising the views of anybody who has been sanctified by Harris constitutes shutting down debate. If you look really carefully you'll see I criticised the students at that university who shut down his speech. I even suggested that they (like you) hadn't read Murray's book.

That white nationalists have so easily co-opted Murray's views into their ideology might tell you something about Murray's views.


Again, this isn't about Murray for me, and quite frankly not about Harris. Not sure how to make that any more clear. "Anybody" and "sanctified" are terms meant to score points, not debate ideas. The issue for me is the discourse of people who I generally agree with politically, saying things which totally undermine their credibility and tuning out anyone who might otherwise listen to them.

It's about shutting down speech by tarring people with associations (like to white nationalist/racists) and labeling people with whom one disagrees as racists, turds, or whatever term is used to deride rather than discuss or debate.

I would have to read carefully to see where you criticize people for shutting down speech, as it seems to be an abberation from what you're doing here more generally. But I'm glad you feel that way, it's outrageous. For me, that's what this is about, and a lot of people on the left feel the same way.

And again, no debate that white nationalists have seized on any number of facts to make their idiotic case. That's not a rebuttal to anything Murray has said, it's simply tarring someone with the words white nationalists. At no point do you actually deal with what the authors have written and debate that. And from what I have read of the book, it's entirely debatable. But that's not the conversation too many on the left want to have, they want to stop people from discussion. Again, it's a dead end and makes rationalists recoil. It's starting to define what the left is, and hurt the many good things the left stands for.
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Re:

13 Feb 2019 18:58

Then allow me to repost. It was actually a direct reply to you. Straight after your post. The relevant sentence isnt nested deep in the post, its at the end of the first paragraph. Clearly, you didnt afford me the respect of reading it.

macbindle wrote:Was he de-platformed? I thought he was subject to a somewhat aggressive protest and chose to cut short his speech. I view that as different to being de-platformed, which to me means having his platform withdrawn on an official basis. He still has plenty of other speaking dates. I happen to think the students were foolish and I wonder whether any of them had read his book.

Re: Harris, I certainly don't think he is a shill for extreme right wing ideas, but I do think he is surfing the wave of right-wing resurgence for reasons of personal exposure and personal gain (ditto Peterson) As per my previous post, I can't see any other reason for his frequent and virulent campaign against Muslims The only result is to enrage non-muslims, rather than engage Muslims. There is literally no positive outcome from what he does.

I dont think he is a fascist, but in my heart of hearts I wonder if his anti-muslim rhetoric is seated in a deeply internalised racism.

With regards to the moral-panic over alledged threats to free speech, we know that the right has tried to manoeuvre themselves into a position of victimhood, as noisy allegations invariably originate with them.

For a more sober view, read this:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vox.com/platform/amp/policy-and-politics/2018/8/3/17644180/political-correctness-free-speech-liberal-data-georgetown


To your edit: Yes, I have discussed the content of The Bell Curve, and no I haven't tarred Murray with the word 'racist' as you imply.

There is loads of left-wing debate about Murray. Some of them, but not all, think he's a racist and they explain why. Concluding that somebody is a racist isn't shutting down debate.

Shutting down debate is what the Middleton twits did. Don't extrapolate from that to all critiques of Murray.
(Warning: Posts may contain traces of irony)
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13 Feb 2019 19:08

I read it–It's been a long conversation and I didn't want to run back through it all. Sometimes I'm not here for a day or two and can't possibly respond to it all.

Do you see how your brief critique of the students comes packaged in a post with accusations of racism, and how at the end you walk back those very mild critiques by suggesting these objections are some kind of false victimhood ("alleged" threats to fee speech) by the right? I'm here to tell you it's not. There are real, genuine objections to this kind of behavior by many of us on the left who are growing tired of the increasing number and volume of those trying to suppress free discourse.
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13 Feb 2019 19:18

Are you incapable of separating your own “left” position from what he said about right victimhood. As with your interminable discussion wih KB can you stop rehearsing your own beliefs long enough to recognize other facets of a related issue? Or are you mule bent on making it all about you in every single post?

Left and right suppressions are coming from different places at times. It would be useful not to collapse them.
aphronesis
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13 Feb 2019 19:24

red_flanders wrote:I read it–It's been a long conversation and I didn't want to run back through it all. Sometimes I'm not here for a day or two and can't possibly respond to it all.

Do you see how your brief critique of the students comes packaged in a post with accusations of racism, and how at the end you walk back those very mild critiques by suggesting these objections are some kind of false victimhood ("alleged" threats to fee speech) by the right? I'm here to tell you it's not. There are real, genuine objections to this kind of behavior by many of us on the left who are growing tired of the increasing number and volume of those trying to suppress free discourse.



No sh1t. It's been your hobby horse for what seems an age. You are making allegations that free speech is threatened, therefore 'alledged'. I'm here to tell you that the discourse is alive and well, despite a few noisy students. Talking of which, since when have students behaved differently? I was doing the same puerile sh1t in the 80s. Actually, maybe not puerile , it was an actual fascist we were dealing with. That ok with you?

Talking more about the distant past, you do realise the accusations of racism against Murray, and the protests started in the mid 90s, yes?

What took you so long to come and stand up for imperilled free speech?
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13 Feb 2019 20:09

Well, we are in the age where conspiracy theory spreads in seconds at the click of a mouse. Actually, post-mouse click. More of a finger jab. Don't even need to move your wrist.

Naturally, Harris (turd) and Peterson need to perpetuate the myth because their sizeable income depends upon it.

Seems to me though that right-wing hatespeak is in the ascendancy, or did I just imagine Trump.
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13 Feb 2019 20:32

Hate speak has risen. And because center “left” Dems have no understanding of power they’ve let themselves be pushed into the position of excusing it. Whereas the far left just let themselves get riled.
aphronesis
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Re:

13 Feb 2019 20:58

macbindle wrote:
red_flanders wrote:I read it–It's been a long conversation and I didn't want to run back through it all. Sometimes I'm not here for a day or two and can't possibly respond to it all.

Do you see how your brief critique of the students comes packaged in a post with accusations of racism, and how at the end you walk back those very mild critiques by suggesting these objections are some kind of false victimhood ("alleged" threats to fee speech) by the right? I'm here to tell you it's not. There are real, genuine objections to this kind of behavior by many of us on the left who are growing tired of the increasing number and volume of those trying to suppress free discourse.



No sh1t. It's been your hobby horse for what seems an age. You are making allegations that free speech is threatened, therefore 'alledged'. I'm here to tell you that the discourse is alive and well, despite a few noisy students. Talking of which, since when have students behaved differently? I was doing the same puerile sh1t in the 80s. Actually, maybe not puerile , it was an actual fascist we were dealing with. That ok with you?

Talking more about the distant past, you do realise the accusations of racism against Murray, and the protests started in the mid 90s, yes?

What took you so long to come and stand up for imperilled free speech?



Jesus this is pointless. Again, not about Murray. Yes, I know when the book was published and well remember the outcry. My entire family is in higher education, as are all of our colleagues, and if you don't think the tenor of how people object to speech has changed, you're ignorant of what's happened in just the last few years.

https://www.thestranger.com/features/2018/09/26/32884518/there-is-a-much-smarter-way-to-deal-with-controversial-speakers-than-deplatforming

In the last few years, it has been increasingly common for university students, as well as faculty, to try to shut out speakers they've deemed problematic or offensive. It's called "deplatforming" or "disinviting," but it has major downsides that the left has been reluctant to acknowledge. For one, it's unconstitutional at a public institution. But there's an even bigger problem: It doesn't work because, unfortunately, offensive speakers don't disappear when you revoke their invitation to talk.


This from that wildy alt-right mag, The Stranger which has spawned such neo-nazis as Dan Savage.
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13 Feb 2019 21:06

Yeah, you obviously missed the post where I talked about Tebbit in the 80's. Plus ça change...

You should pop out of your higher education bubble sometime. The rest of the world have few fux to give.

https://youtu.be/JHOvzdw8SZA
Last edited by macbindle on 13 Feb 2019 21:23, edited 2 times in total.
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13 Feb 2019 21:06

Edit, I meant the Stranger article.

@red


I considered posting that but it was loading slowly.

The point is not allowing all to speak, but knowing why the tenor and tolerance has changed and fixing that.

Take a stab?

Most academy bound US liberals are not close to the reality.
Last edited by aphronesis on 13 Feb 2019 21:30, edited 1 time in total.
aphronesis
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13 Feb 2019 21:20

Yeah, I didn't suspect you were an afficianado of Paul Calf :D
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14 Feb 2019 00:36

https://theintercept.com/2019/02/13/green-new-deal-proposal/

Right now, the Green New Deal reads like a list because House resolutions have to be formatted as lists — lettered and numbered sequences of “whereases” and “resolveds.” It’s also being characterized as an unrelated grab bag because most of us have been trained to avoid a systemic and historical analysis of capitalism and to divide pretty much every crisis our system produces — from economic inequality to violence against women to white supremacy to unending wars to ecological unraveling — in walled-off silos. From within that rigid mindset, it’s easy to dismiss a sweeping and intersectional vision like the Green New Deal as a green-tinted “laundry list” of everything the left has ever wanted.
aphronesis
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14 Feb 2019 05:12

There is no such thing as the green new deal..it's an idea from a newbie from the Bronx ..no traction..no money..no time for debate..people from fossil fuel states can't be bothered. Top down..there is an open debate that global climate change exists.
Democrats are not united on blackface..not united on zero dollars for a wall.not united on murder..Democrats not on the same page on human rights or if the US should surrender to the Taliban. Democrats unsure if Trump can purpose breaking the law in Iraq..Democrats waiting for the public to give informal approval to Trump tax..they didn't do tax return models? Joe Citizen is the way the Dems know what impact Trump Tax has on return checks?
No stern warnings to Trump about robbing designated funds for wall building? Taking emergency monies from Puerto Rico and California fire victims?
Trump always succeeds when on offense..
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14 Feb 2019 06:38

https://www.axios.com/ilhan-omar-elliott-abrams-venezuela-2d5b53aa-cc72-4589-a6dd-32b76fb41040.html
Rep. Ilhan Omar (D-Minn.) grilled President Trump's special representative to Venezuela Elliott Abrams during a House Foreign Affairs hearing on Capitol Hill Wednesday, arguing that she doesn't understand why the committee should believe Abrams' testimony in 2019 since he pleaded guilty to lying to Congress in the 1980s about the Iran-Contra affair.


Abrams is a grade one [bleeping bleep bleep blankty blank bleeping bleep].
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Re:

14 Feb 2019 08:37

macbindle wrote:I'm here to tell you that the discourse is alive and well, despite a few noisy students. Talking of which, since when have students behaved differently? I was doing the same puerile sh1t in the 80s. Actually, maybe not puerile , it was an actual fascist we were dealing with. That ok with you?

Ooh, he was an "actual fascist". Who was it? Salman Rushdie?

Just kidding.

As for students always being like this, I would reccomend Jonathan Haidt, who has been doing research on this and identifies a major change 5 years ago.

But when I say reccomend I mean to read and listen to what he has to say, and not exclusively read the hit pieces on him from Vox, Buzzfeed and the Guradian

Quote edited by KB.
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14 Feb 2019 10:45

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-02-13/with-cocaine-flowing-push-to-pry-generals-from-maduro-hits-snag
Speaking in a hauntingly calm tone, he confessed to treason -- trying to overthrow Venezuelan President Nicolas Maduro. The Colombians, he said, granted him free exit and entry; the Central Intelligence Agency met with him.

Oswaldo Garcia Palomo, a fugitive retired Venezuelan National Guard colonel who had called publicly for a coup, slipped back across the border in late January to foment revolt. But, as Information Minister Jorge Rodriguez noted last week when he played the confession for reporters, Garcia was monitored the minute he arrived.

This wasn’t the image that the opposition has sought to project.
...
Longtime observers, however, say the generals doubt the promises will be kept. This is a major reason why the revolution isn’t moving as quickly as some had hoped when Guaido electrified the world on Jan. 23 with his declaration. This has led to impatience and finger-pointing. U.S. policy makers and those around Guaido -- as well as leaders in Brazil and Colombia -- are eyeing one another and worrying about failure. Officials in each camp have said privately they assumed the others had a more developed strategy.
...
At a meeting in the U.S. embassy in Bogota, Colombia, last week, military, intelligence and civilian leaders from both countries discussed ways of moving humanitarian aid into Venezuela. There was a sense of frustration in the air, according to a participant who agreed to discuss it on condition of anonymity.

The U.S. said it was paying for the aid but wanted Colombia to find trucks and drivers to move it in. The Colombians said no one would accept the mission because the Venezuelan military would arrest them. The aid remains in warehouses near the border.

At similar meetings in the Colombian border city of Cucuta, a person who attended said the dynamic was the same -- the U.S. expecting Colombia to find the means to deliver the aid and the Colombians saying they can’t.


The US trying to get the Colombians to do their dirty work, and have "plausable denialability". The genius plan of Rubio, Pence, Bolton et al has run into problems but will they give a hoot after the next round of elections in the US anyway?
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Re: Re:

14 Feb 2019 12:47

The Hitch wrote:
macbindle wrote:I'm here to tell you that the discourse is alive and well, despite a few noisy students. Talking of which, since when have students behaved differently? I was doing the same puerile sh1t in the 80s. Actually, maybe not puerile , it was an actual fascist we were dealing with. That ok with you?

Ooh, he was an "actual fascist". Who was it? Salman Rushdie?

Just kidding.

As for students always being like this, I would reccomend Jonathan Haidt, who has been doing research on this and identifies a major change 5 years ago.

But when I say reccomend I mean to read and listen to what he has to say, and not exclusively read the hit pieces on him from Vox, Buzzfeed and the Guradian


Hit pieces like this?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jan/10/by-mollycoddling-our-children-were-fuelling-mental-illness-in-teenagers

or this?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/books/2018/sep/20/the-coddling-of-the-american-mind-review

Little too many facts clouding the reactionary polemics? It’s hard being alive in a fragmented world. Hard to find someone who talks directly to you and gives you some peace and clarity.

Quote edited by KB.
aphronesis
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14 Feb 2019 12:58

Ooooh the irony
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14 Feb 2019 13:32

Hey, it’s cool: everyone has a right to their market blind neo-con tendencies. It would be good if they could defend them better. This was a domestic effect of the economic and imperial move to terror and security as the poles of normal and not.

I believe this was the original article. Or one of them

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.theatlantic.com/amp/article/399356/

I share its basic concern.

But you know I recall telling students ten years ago that because they came of age in a period of historical amnesia and technological surveillance that this type of sensitivity could be expected. It’s also a problem that many liberal faculty don’t know how to take themselves out of what they’re saying and talk about material objectively with curiosity rather than as right or wrong.

And then there’s the fact that behavioral psychology and its disciplinary neighbors are big on statistics and instrumental causality but low on molecular interconnections.
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