Log in:  

Register

U.S. Politics

Grab a short black and come join in the non-cycling discussion. Favourite books, movies, holiday destinations, other sports - chat about it all in the cafe.

07 Sep 2012 13:20

Scott SoCal wrote:That is where I would start.

Short term cap gains would have to be set a few percent lower than the national sales tax rate. Dividend income and long term cap gains lower still. I personally think the estate tax is immoral, although I'm not sure what the impact would be to eliminate it altogether. Maybe rework the tax to apply to cash or cash equivalents. Don't hold my hands to the fire on that, I'm just thinking out loud.

I think business would come and stay in the US to get access to the finest labor pool in the world. Cheap labor has its own set of problems. I think the global corporate world seek to run an efficient, world class operations. They also need stability in the tax code and an ability to accurately forecast expenditures and expenses on a three and five year time frame (which is where Obama has blown it).

China doesn't own that much of our debt. It fluctuates between $900 Billion and around $1.6 Trillion. Hell, Japan owns over $1 Trillion. American govt and American investors own the bulk of the debt... Getting closer to $10 Trillion nowadays. I don't think China will complain much if we grow robustly for a generation or two. We are still the largest market in the world and China fails if they don't export goods.


China, as you know, will eventually get beyond that. Fail is a relatively useless word in this context.

You ignored (or disregarded) the basic question though: shuffling the numbers is one thing--and you're very forthright today about how that might look--but that does absolutely nothing in terms of of suggesting how those numbers might actually be generated.

Put another way: you think Hil's America would have inculcated greater productivity?
aphronesis
Junior Member
 
Posts: 1,921
Joined: 30 Jul 2011 16:47
Location: NYC

07 Sep 2012 13:40

aphronesis wrote:China, as you know, will eventually get beyond that. Fail is a relatively useless word in this context.

You ignored (or disregarded) the basic question though: shuffling the numbers is one thing--and you're very forthright today about how that might look--but that does absolutely nothing in terms of of suggesting how those numbers might actually be generated.

Put another way: you think Hil's America would have inculcated greater productivity?


Yep.

I think Hil would have recognized by instinct (and Bill) that economic recovery was monumentally more important than a half measure on national healthcare crammed down the throats of the other side. If you need to know why R's don't trust and won't work with Obama look no further.

Hillary is likely very aware of what drove the Clinton economic expansion and I am confident she would have patterned her economic policy to that of Bill Clinton.
Scott SoCal
 

07 Sep 2012 14:13

Scott SoCal wrote:Yep.

I think Hil would have recognized by instinct (and Bill) that economic recovery was monumentally more important than a half measure on national healthcare crammed down the throats of the other side. If you need to know why R's don't trust and won't work with Obama look no further.

Hillary is likely very aware of what drove the Clinton economic expansion and I am confident she would have patterned her economic policy to that of Bill Clinton.


I'll give you instinct and Bill. You think healthcare was something Obam dreamed about or it was pushed on him by a dem apparatus?

You're still ducking the question; whatever Hil and Bill may have recognized, top-down measures and policies are only a part of the issue--however pervasive and controlling the latter may be.
aphronesis
Junior Member
 
Posts: 1,921
Joined: 30 Jul 2011 16:47
Location: NYC

07 Sep 2012 14:50

Scott SoCal wrote:That is where I would start.

Short term cap gains would have to be set a few percent lower than the national sales tax rate. Dividend income and long term cap gains lower still. I personally think the estate tax is immoral, although I'm not sure what the impact would be to eliminate it altogether. Maybe rework the tax to apply to cash or cash equivalents. Don't hold my hands to the fire on that, I'm just thinking out loud.

I think business would come and stay in the US to get access to the finest labor pool in the world. Cheap labor has its own set of problems. I think the global corporate world seek to run an efficient, world class operations. They also need stability in the tax code and an ability to accurately forecast expenditures and expenses on a three and five year time frame (which is where Obama has blown it).

China doesn't own that much of our debt. It fluctuates between $900 Billion and around $1.6 Trillion. Hell, Japan owns over $1 Trillion. American govt and American investors own the bulk of the debt... Getting closer to $10 Trillion nowadays. I don't think China will complain much if we grow robustly for a generation or two. We are still the largest market in the world and China fails if they don't export goods.


First bolded: Why, do you have a large patrimony?

Second bolded: Do you mean the Mexicans. :D

Third bolded: $1.6 Trillion isn't so much? At nearly 10% it is more than enough to give them significant bargaining power.
User avatar rhubroma
Senior Member
 
Posts: 6,085
Joined: 02 Apr 2009 14:31

07 Sep 2012 15:23

rhubroma wrote:First bolded: Why, do you have a large patrimony?

Second bolded: Do you mean the Mexicans. :D

Third bolded: $1.6 Trillion isn't so much? At nearly 10% it is more than enough to give them significant bargaining power.


First bolded: Why, do you have a large patrimony?


A persons estate is belongs to the person on an after-tax basis. A person ought to be able to gift that estate to whomever the person wants without the govt looking to tax what's been taxed again. Here's how I look at it... if we are going to have an estate tax then any financial help a child receives from a parent who is living should also be taxed. Help with college tuition as an example probably should be taxable to the child if one believes that an estate gifted to an heir is estate taxable. Why should it matter if the parent is alive or dead? A dead parents estate gifting college tuition to a child would possibly be taxable while an alive parent paying for college never would. It's an immoral tax (my view).

Second bolded: Do you mean the Mexicans. :D


Nicely done (as I pick myself up after falling off my seat). There's humor there after all.

Third bolded: $1.6 Trillion isn't so much? At nearly 10% it is more than enough to give them significant bargaining power.


To be fair, it fluctuates pretty wildly. The Chinese are buying a lot of short term bonds. A Trillion dollars is not insignificant... but it's also not accurate to say they own all our debt.
Scott SoCal
 

07 Sep 2012 15:27

aphronesis wrote:I'll give you instinct and Bill. You think healthcare was something Obam dreamed about or it was pushed on him by a dem apparatus?

You're still ducking the question; whatever Hil and Bill may have recognized, top-down measures and policies are only a part of the issue--however pervasive and controlling the latter may be.


I think Obama is an ideologue and was always going to go for cental govt control of healthcare. In fact, I'm guessing he thinks the reason it's so unpopular is that it is a watered down version of what he really wanted which was single payor Universal Healthcare. Hillary got her *** handed to her the first time, it cost Bill the House of representatives in 1994 and I don't think she would have gone there again.

I think you have start with top-down measures. Maybe I'm wrong.
Scott SoCal
 

07 Sep 2012 15:50

Scott SoCal wrote:You got it. If their plan does not jump start a rather stagnant economy and if they don't make significant headway reducing spending to GDP and debt to GDP (as Clinton did) then I will truly be done with R's forever.
What plan? I don't know if you've noticed, but they haven't got a plan.
User avatar VeloCity
Senior Member
 
Posts: 3,240
Joined: 10 Sep 2009 16:17
Location: Washington, DC

07 Sep 2012 16:12

Scott SoCal wrote:I think Obama is an ideologue and was always going to go for cental govt control of healthcare. In fact, I'm guessing he thinks the reason it's so unpopular is that it is a watered down version of what he really wanted which was single payor Universal Healthcare. Hillary got her *** handed to her the first time, it cost Bill the House of representatives in 1994 and I don't think she would have gone there again.

I think you have start with top-down measures. Maybe I'm wrong.
Odd then that so many Rs - including Paul Ryan - think nothing of quietly requesting "Obamacare" funding for their districts while publicly calling it "socialism".

http://www.thenation.com/blog/169757/exclusive-paul-ryan-quietly-requested-obamacare-cash
User avatar VeloCity
Senior Member
 
Posts: 3,240
Joined: 10 Sep 2009 16:17
Location: Washington, DC

07 Sep 2012 16:20

Scott SoCal wrote:Nicely done (as I pick myself up after falling off my seat). There's humor there after all.


I made you fall off your seat, ehh. I'm almost proud of myself.
User avatar rhubroma
Senior Member
 
Posts: 6,085
Joined: 02 Apr 2009 14:31

07 Sep 2012 16:24

VeloCity wrote:What plan? I don't know if you've noticed, but they haven't got a plan.


It wasn't all that long ago you were apoplectic over the Ryan budget. I think you've sighted opinions pontificating at the additional debt the Romney plan will create.

They have a plan. You just don't like it.
Scott SoCal
 

07 Sep 2012 16:25

rhubroma wrote:I made you fall off your seat, ehh. I'm almost proud of myself.


I didn't break anything so don't get carried away.:)
Scott SoCal
 

07 Sep 2012 16:31

VeloCity wrote:Odd then that so many Rs - including Paul Ryan - think nothing of quietly requesting "Obamacare" funding for their districts while publicly calling it "socialism".

http://www.thenation.com/blog/169757/exclusive-paul-ryan-quietly-requested-obamacare-cash


I'm not sure I find this all that unusual. I think there is some inevitability to much of Obamacare unless Romney wins and keeps his pledge. Even then sensible parts of Obamacare will likely remain.

If Ryan is operating within the system that is now in place, so what? He didn't write the rules, did not vote for the rules but the rules are in place. I don't see the problem.
Scott SoCal
 

07 Sep 2012 18:46

Scott SoCal wrote:
If Ryan is operating within the system that is now in place, so what? He didn't write the rules, did not vote for the rules but the rules are in place. I don't see the problem.


You really don't have a problem with this basic premise?
aphronesis
Junior Member
 
Posts: 1,921
Joined: 30 Jul 2011 16:47
Location: NYC

07 Sep 2012 18:57

Scott SoCal wrote:It wasn't all that long ago you were apoplectic over the Ryan budget. I think you've sighted opinions pontificating at the additional debt the Romney plan will create.

They have a plan. You just don't like it.
That's the problem, Scott - they don't have a plan at all.

But here’s the magic trick of Ryan’s budget, and this is really important. Ryan extends all the Bush tax cuts, and then he adds a bunch of new tax cuts costing more than $4.5 trillion. So how does he pay for them?
He doesn’t. But he told Congress’s budget guys to assume he’d figure out how to pay for them later. To pay for those, you’d need to eliminate almost everything else in the tax code — the home mortgage interest deduction, the Child Tax Credit, the deduction for state and local taxes, most all of it. Ryan hasn’t named one that he’d eliminate. So there’s a mystery $4.5 trillion in tax increases sitting at the center of Ryan’s budget promises.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/ezra-klein/wp/2012/08/29/everything-you-know-about-paul-ryans-budget-is-probably-wrong/

We'll cut taxes, then we'll cut a bunch of spending to pay for them but we don't know what just yet, we'll figure that out later.

That's their plan. Sounds awesome.
User avatar VeloCity
Senior Member
 
Posts: 3,240
Joined: 10 Sep 2009 16:17
Location: Washington, DC

07 Sep 2012 18:59

Paul Ryan doesn't tell the truth.
I know my best marathon to the second and it was 30 years ago. For him to say he ran a sub 3 hour marathon is like someone that cheats at golf. They cheat at everything. Total scum!

I want someone that will tax everyone,shrink the defense budget and increase education and infrastructure budgets.

The big problem now is, who do I write in for president.
gobuck
Junior Member
 
Posts: 162
Joined: 30 Sep 2010 15:17

07 Sep 2012 19:39

VeloCity wrote:That's the problem, Scott - they don't have a plan at all.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/ezra-klein/wp/2012/08/29/everything-you-know-about-paul-ryans-budget-is-probably-wrong/

We'll cut taxes, then we'll cut a bunch of spending to pay for them but we don't know what just yet, we'll figure that out later.

That's their plan. Sounds awesome.


C'mon Velo.

When you see these terms: PRELIMINARY RESULTS, (Excluding Unspecified Base Broadeners), THE TABLE DOES NOT ESTIMATE THE REVENUE EFFECTS OF THE ENTIRE FY 2013 BUDGET RESOLUTION PROPOSED BY REP. PAUL RYAN then you know that this is a hit piece. Why do a "study" when you don't have all the data?

Cuts to the poor... we heard this when Clinton signed welfare reform. People were going to die in the streets. Didn't happen. Able people went back to work.

Food Stamps and other safety net programs will be slashed necessarily as the unemployment U-6 rate plummets as a result of economic growth. That's a good thing from where I sit.
Scott SoCal
 

07 Sep 2012 20:01

gobuck wrote:Paul Ryan doesn't tell the truth.
I know my best marathon to the second and it was 30 years ago. For him to say he ran a sub 3 hour marathon is like someone that cheats at golf. They cheat at everything. Total scum!

I want someone that will tax everyone,shrink the defense budget and increase education and infrastructure budgets.

The big problem now is, who do I write in for president.


Paul Ryan doesn't tell the truth.
I know my best marathon to the second and it was 30 years ago. For him to say he ran a sub 3 hour marathon is like someone that cheats at golf. They cheat at everything. Total scum!


Obama, February 23, 2009:

And that's why today I'm pledging to cut the deficit we inherited in half by the end of my first term in office. This will not be easy. It will require us to make difficult decisions and face challenges we've long neglected. But I refuse to leave our children with a debt that they cannot repay -- and that means taking responsibility right now, in this administration, for getting our spending under control.


Quite honestly, I could point to dozens of significant flat out lies that Obama has told over his last term... some of them were on display in his speech last night.

If Ryan is total scum for lying about a marathon time then what are we to make of our President?

I want someone that will tax everyone


Ok, at what level? Flat tax, VAT, do you have a threshold where the poor don't pay?? "Rich" to pay more?

shrink the defense budget


How much? In fiscal 2000 (peacetime, last fiscal year of Clinton's 2nd term)
the defense budget was 4% of GDP. After 9/11 is fluctuated between 5 and 6% of GDP.

increase education


Spending or results? One does not guarantee the other.

infrastructure budgets


How much? FY 2012 spend is a little over $295 Billion (a little less than half of the defense budget). What are your priorities?

The big problem now is, who do I write in for president.


I have asked myself the same question.
Scott SoCal
 

08 Sep 2012 14:15

Funny stuff from borowitz :D

http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/borowitzreport/2012/09/ryan-calls-nomination-greatest-triumph-since-winning-tour-de-france.html

Ryan Calls Nomination Greatest Triumph Since Winning Tour de France

Posted by Andy Borowitz


NEW YORK (The Borowitz Report)—Fresh from the 2012 Republican National Convention, Rep. Paul Ryan (R-Wisc.) today called being nominated for Vice President his greatest personal triumph “since I won the Tour de France, in 2006.”

“That feeling of adrenaline when I was onstage with Mitt,” he told reporters on the campaign trail. “It felt exactly like that when I crossed the finish line in Marseille.”

When a reporter pointed out that the Tour de France ends in Paris, not Marseille, Mr. Ryan said, “My bad. I’m always mixing them up, ever since I won the Open 13 tennis tournament in Marseille.”

Mr. Ryan said he would bring an athlete’s focus to winning the White House in November: “Every little boy dreams of winning a World Series or a Heisman Trophy or getting to the White House. I’m already two out of three.”

User avatar Bala Verde
Senior Member
 
Posts: 7,119
Joined: 10 Mar 2009 02:32
Location: Chapel Hill, NC

08 Sep 2012 15:34

Thoughts on topic:

•Anyone here who thinks the ever increasing national debt is not a problem is like someone saying your max heat rate is limitless. Just add the stimulant of your choice, and its no problem…..the sky is the limit.

•The current Health Care Act is another 100 cups of Joe. Just believe my friends and there will be no consequences.

•It is the "I can have all I want because I am well intentioned" philosophy.

•Keynesian economics became a bad habit of which both parties have indulged in like pigs at a trough.

•Speaking in terms of FDR…FDR had zero debt to work from. What FDR did is impossible today.

•The Republican control house has produce plans called budgets that offer cuts in the size of government, however small, and however and weak. The tax cuts would be able to go, there nothing but a bargaining chip anyway, but the Senate, under Harry Reed, has not acted on what the house provided or produced any budget of their own in two years.

•That's one way to shut down an election result and create a wealth of discouragement to vote like that again.

•Nobody wants to give anything up. If I had a government job, I would not want to give it up too.

•The latter is the real problem.

•Of course, if you've spent you life in one, then you might not be directly aware that in the private sector, the ax has already fallen heavily.

•Talking points of worries over Europe divert attention away from the real problems at home.

•The US stock markets bares little reflection on the US economy because of the rise the multi-national corporations vested there.

•I rely less and less on what I read and more and more on what I see happening around me.
I tell ya, it's not the water.
User avatar BillytheKid
Senior Member
 
Posts: 2,441
Joined: 01 Jun 2011 06:13
Location: Left of the Duke City

08 Sep 2012 16:32

I think Obama's greatest mistake was putting healthcare ahead of a tax increase/ balanced budget. I already forgot about his Tim geitner apptmt,(another winning move).

Gary Anderson will get my wasted vote.
gobuck
Junior Member
 
Posts: 162
Joined: 30 Sep 2010 15:17

PreviousNext

Return to General

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google Adsense [Bot], lemon cheese cake and 5 guests

Back to top