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The Logisitics of Doping

The Clinic is the only place on Cyclingnews where you can discuss doping-related issues. Ask questions, discuss positives or improvements to procedures.

01 Jul 2009 08:46

Jackhammer,

I rarely watch it but I used to do it myself, albeit at a less glamorous level than presented here on cyclingnews. I actually quit in disgust in december, with the last straw being the return of your hero.

No Johan rider has ever tested positive bla bla bla

You've seen the list of riders who have tested positive right?

Well, we could make an even longer list of riders from the last 15 years who have confessed / been implicated / been suspended without testing positive / retired and admitted - and NONE of them tested positive either.

You really don't get it do you?
Mongol_Waaijer
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01 Jul 2009 08:47

Snake8 wrote:Damn, now I'm even posting doping threads....

Anyway, my question for those of you "in the know" how do so many cyclists dope and not get caught with bags of blood, syringes etc., It seems to me that not all cyclists are smart and some at least would get popped, or rather would get popped more often by getting caught with "stuff" than by failing a test.

I know there are examples of both, Kayle L, Puerto etc., I am not asking for a rehash of what has happened but maybe some idea of how a guy like LA who is so high profile could get away with dragging around bags of blood, syringes etc. Wouldn't transport of these items be illegal?


Simple lots of money and an entire system with power that has over the years perfected the clandestine measures. It's what governements do, as well, with their secret services all the time. Now, let's move on please. Next.
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01 Jul 2009 09:20

Can't tell you how. But I might be able to tell you how to dispose of a hooker if you get me drunk enough. ;)
User avatar Alpe d'Huez
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01 Jul 2009 09:30

Alpe d'Huez wrote:Can't tell you how. But I might be able to tell you how to dispose of a hooker if you get me drunk enough. ;)


But would the hooker have to be drunk too? So that you wouldn't be the one being disposed of? :D
User avatar rhubroma
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01 Jul 2009 16:16

Mongol_Waaijer wrote:Jackhammer,

I rarely watch it but I used to do it myself, albeit at a less glamorous level than presented here on cyclingnews. I actually quit in disgust in december, with the last straw being the return of your hero.

No Johan rider has ever tested positive bla bla bla

You've seen the list of riders who have tested positive right?

Well, we could make an even longer list of riders from the last 15 years who have confessed / been implicated / been suspended without testing positive / retired and admitted - and NONE of them tested positive either.

You really don't get it do you?


Lance in not my hero. I wan't even pulling for him to win until recent weeks and all the venom that has festered up here lately. The number of tests on him since his return is up to around 40.

Some former former Johan riders doped riding for other teams.

I think belief in widespread long term conspiracy is as personality defect and it can bleed over into how you live your life.

My former belief in a widespread Kennedy assassination conspiracy taught me that over a long period of years. If there was someone on the grassy knoll it's clear now not many new about it.

Systemized team doping held for a time as a secret but it broke. No more running around with illegal drugs and packed blood bags in buses and hotels. It's a crime to dope in France. Should be other places as well.

Oh, and if you've given up on the sport and "don't watch it much", you don't really belong here. IMO.
jackhammer111
 

01 Jul 2009 17:07

Mongol_Waaijer wrote:Jackhammer,

I rarely watch it but I used to do it myself, albeit at a less glamorous level than presented here on cyclingnews. I actually quit in disgust in december, with the last straw being the return of your hero.

No Johan rider has ever tested positive bla bla bla

You've seen the list of riders who have tested positive right?

Well, we could make an even longer list of riders from the last 15 years who have confessed / been implicated / been suspended without testing positive / retired and admitted - and NONE of them tested positive either.

You really don't get it do you?

Not only that, but it's highly doubtful that anyone who was ever caught doping was caught the first time they doped. In other words, each probably got away it with it countless times, for years and even decades in some cases.

There are all kinds of risks inherent in this sport, and getting caught doping is just one of them.
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01 Jul 2009 17:26

Mongol_Waaijer wrote:I rarely watch it but I used to do it myself, albeit at a less glamorous level than presented here on cyclingnews. I actually quit in disgust in december, with the last straw being the return of your hero.

(A bit off topic)
How far did you go on your career? Just curious.
Thanks.
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01 Jul 2009 18:03

I love reading the stories that circulate on the message boards about how JB and Lance have some amazing PED method. They flushed Floyd's blood down the toilet one year, or that Lance does his transfusions in a helicopter. Based on the riders that are being caught, none of their methods seem all that sophisticated. Mostly out of competition use of EPO/EPO CERA (in between controls or hiding from them) or doing blood transfusions during stage races.

I think a big reason we only seem to see smaller name riders is because they think they are flying under the radar. As soon as their performances look too good to be true (ie Ricco in last year's TdF or Vino in the year before) then the jig is up. Riders like Armstrong, Sastre, Evans, Menchov, Contador, etc. would need to be very extreme in their methods to avoid detection or we must assume they are protected by the very sport that claims they are trying to catch all the cheats. Keep in mind that anything that appears out of the ordinary arouses suspicion on boards like this, so I would assume that same suspicion would be shared by the testers. See Rasmussen's behavior prior to the 2007 TdF...This is why I find it unlikely that any of them currently use PEDs. Although they may have when they were younger, lesser known riders.
**Uru**
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01 Jul 2009 18:28

joe_papp wrote:Why? Are you trying to develop your own personal or even organized doping ring and you need help determining the logistics?

How does someone get away with asking a question like that? It's the equivalent of asking how to murder a hooker and dispose of her body w/o getting caught, in that they're both criminal acts now in many countries.. And you want to discuss how to go about achieving that criminal objective? A public forum is probably not the best place to do that...


Are you for real? Dude answer the question! You KNOW how its done. You did it! Dude you are a DOPER. And btw asking how to kill a hooker is not illegal. Ever hear of that thing called free speech?

And to clarify because clearly you and others feel the need to silence this subject because it does not back up the view that 90+% of the peloton is doped. I am not asking how I should dope, I am asking how they get away with it. People have referenced all this omerta, but to carry out what some of you allege (and I have a healthy skepticism about the cleanliness of pro riders) is going on. Where do all the needles go? All i hear anyone saying is the same "Its not rocket science." Yet you also want to compare it to clandestine government agencies.
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01 Jul 2009 18:37

Snake8 wrote: . And btw asking how to kill a hooker is not illegal.

.


Don't pay her. Oh wait that's how you make a whor-moan:)
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01 Jul 2009 18:38

Alpe d'Huez wrote:Can't tell you how. But I might be able to tell you how to dispose of a hooker if you get me drunk enough. ;)


If I were going to get a hooker, "disposing" of her would not be what I did.....unless by "dispose" you mean get a blo.......well, never mind.
Thoughtforfood
 

01 Jul 2009 18:40

Snake8 wrote:And to clarify because clearly you and others feel the need to silence this subject because it does not back up the view that 90+% of the peloton is doped. I am not asking how I should dope, I am asking how they get away with it. People have referenced all this omerta, but to carry out what some of you allege (and I have a healthy skepticism about the cleanliness of pro riders) is going on. Where do all the needles go? All i hear anyone saying is the same "Its not rocket science." Yet you also want to compare it to clandestine government agencies.

Before Festina, needles and empty packages were put in hotel's garbages or in the rooms.
Later we have seen US Postal people throwing them in garbages along the routes, in their rubbish were found 200 syringes, package of actovegin and other products,...
Now we can only suppose, that team are more cautious.
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01 Jul 2009 18:44

Snake8 wrote:And to clarify because clearly you and others feel the need to silence this subject because it does not back up the view that 90+% of the peloton is doped.


Firstly - who said that 90% of the peleton are doped? From reading your posts I think you agree that there is a significant doping problem but as to what percentage it is is pure speculation.

I do not know how the logistics of how teams/riders dope.
However in 98 we know it was as simple as filling the car with meds.
Rumsas wife was caught with the gear crossing the border, also another rider had his Father follow him around in a camper van.

The most recent evidence is from Puerto - go to your 'Doctor' either a clinic or rented apartment.
For top ups Kohl said his manager rented a room at the same hotel and sent a text when they were ready.
User avatar Dr. Maserati
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01 Jul 2009 19:33

Dr. Maserati wrote:Firstly - who said that 90% of the peleton are doped? From reading your posts I think you agree that there is a significant doping problem but as to what percentage it is is pure speculation.

I do not know how the logistics of how teams/riders dope.
However in 98 we know it was as simple as filling the car with meds.
Rumsas wife was caught with the gear crossing the border, also another rider had his Father follow him around in a camper van.

The most recent evidence is from Puerto - go to your 'Doctor' either a clinic or rented apartment.
For top ups Kohl said his manager rented a room at the same hotel and sent a text when they were ready.


I agree its a problem. Frankly I veer in my views from they are all cheating to something like 15-20% percentage are cheating. Most of the heavy posters on this forum argue that most riders, especially the top riders are cheating.

I really don't know. I do know that if they are all doping, especially with blood top ups, the logistical exercise would be a huge operation involving a lot of helpers, some of whom it would certainly be in their interest at some point to rat out one rider or another.

Eh, whatever...
Snake8
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01 Jul 2009 21:21

I am a Community Psychiatric Nurse, and one of the injections I give HAS to be kept at refridgeration temp, then brought to room temp before administration. Visiting some people at home who do not wish their neighbours (and sometimes family) to know they're receiving an injection,or are being seen by a psychiatric nurse, I can transport this injection, in it's box, wrapped in a (silent) ice bag, with a sharps box, waste disposal bag, plastic gloves, recording kardex and so on in a large handbag. Easy-peasy. If all I had to do was carry the injection, it would be even simpler.

Years ago, before small sharps boxes came into being, we used to take an empty coffee jar for sharps. I would imagine that having an insulin using diabetic soigneur would help enormously.





What has always puzzled me, however, is how on earth they manage to cover up the needle marks after the transfusions. OK, Arnica cream is fantastic stuff, but the marks on their arms would surely show. I can only assume that they're choosing more hidden veins.
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01 Jul 2009 21:31

Tusher wrote:What has always puzzled me, however, is how on earth they manage to cover up the needle marks after the transfusions. OK, Arnica cream is fantastic stuff, but the marks on their arms would surely show. I can only assume that they're choosing more hidden veins.


Thanks for your post- that is interesting.
Actually quite a lot of the Pro peleton sport tattoo's on their arms!

And snake I was not having a go at you as this is an interesting subject - apologies if it came across that way.
User avatar Dr. Maserati
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01 Jul 2009 21:33

Em, on the off chance that my boss is lurking and can identify my nickname, I would like to point out that I do, in fact, always use the nice District Nurse gladstone bag the NHS give me for carrying injections. The one with the emergency adrenaline injection and 57 other items we HAVE to carry and give us shoulder ache. None of us ever, ever take stuff in our handbags, oh no.


Not even when we're going in to blocks of flats full of drug addicts who would be delighted to relieve us of our heavy bags (and supply of clean needles). Oh no, not us.
Tusher
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01 Jul 2009 22:49

Tusher wrote:I am a Community Psychiatric Nurse, and one of the injections I give HAS to be kept at refridgeration temp, then brought to room temp before administration. Visiting some people at home who do not wish their neighbours (and sometimes family) to know they're receiving an injection,or are being seen by a psychiatric nurse, I can transport this injection, in it's box, wrapped in a (silent) ice bag, with a sharps box, waste disposal bag, plastic gloves, recording kardex and so on in a large handbag. Easy-peasy. If all I had to do was carry the injection, it would be even simpler.

Years ago, before small sharps boxes came into being, we used to take an empty coffee jar for sharps. I would imagine that having an insulin using diabetic soigneur would help enormously.





What has always puzzled me, however, is how on earth they manage to cover up the needle marks after the transfusions. OK, Arnica cream is fantastic stuff, but the marks on their arms would surely show. I can only assume that they're choosing more hidden veins.


Its all oral that I can think of. Are you giving Chlorpromazine (Thorazine, Largactil) ? :confused:

I'm just thinking about Lithium, Lamotrigine.. Anti-convulsants, etc
"In the field of sports you are more or less accepted for what you do rather than what you are."
Althea Gibson
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01 Jul 2009 22:55

Tusher wrote:blocks of flats full of drug addicts who would be delighted to relieve us of our heavy bags (and supply of clean needles). Oh no, not us.


Oh I see. Thats interesting.
"In the field of sports you are more or less accepted for what you do rather than what you are."
Althea Gibson
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01 Jul 2009 23:50

It's Risperidone, Bigboat
Tusher
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