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Why are UK riders now more successful?

The Clinic is the only place on Cyclingnews where you can discuss doping-related issues. Ask questions, discuss positives or improvements to procedures.

06 Mar 2012 20:18

Well you might be correct but it is tangential to my point, which is UK riders are not very successful. And neither is Froome - he has had one result in 5 years. Overall it looks good, because you are comparing it to nothing.
User avatar richtea
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06 Mar 2012 20:20

hrotha wrote:This might be hyperbole.


It is, but if you look at his 2008 Tour de France, he was a 23 year old neo-pro who was almost fresh out of Africa and, prior to it, the biggest stage race he'd done was the Tour of Britain. He was unspectacular, but managed to come 14th in the final time trial and 30th up Alpe d'Huez. Nothing extraordinary, but signs of some genuine raw talent.
Mambo95
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06 Mar 2012 20:24

Froome was injured, then Barlo had problems. They actually explain why he was AWOL.

Unlike the justifications, of "weight loss" "efficiency" "cadence" "altitude training" "sports science" "gluten free" "nutrition".

We remember when the Chinese women middle distance racers won everything under the sun in about 98, and they were talking natural remedies and extract of frogs.

Did you believe the chinese women?

"extract of frogs"! This is the Team Sky evolution and results. The extract of frogs.

Thet have elite athletes, the best riders, and a generous budget. That eqyals results.

But dont say they dont do it like the way everyone else at the pointy head of the equation do it. They do it to compete. They do it to win. They are still phenomenal athletes, and they compete on the same terms as their rivals.

But to say they do it clean defies all credulity, and u look like a muppet. sorry
You bust your ass on a bike for three whole weeks, and at the end, as a "reward" you are expected to party with LRP? That's just sad. :( - Beech Mtn
User avatar blackcat
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06 Mar 2012 20:28

I did this thread on Froome a while back

Froome ignorance, he could always TT and climb
You bust your ass on a bike for three whole weeks, and at the end, as a "reward" you are expected to party with LRP? That's just sad. :( - Beech Mtn
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06 Mar 2012 20:30

blackcat wrote:actually not right. The coach at the academy, Bradley wiggins coach, who left to go to Perth for the West aus Institute of Sport, he was not complimentary on Cav and his testing. OK, some can test, some can race. When Cav was seen by Heiko Salzedal, famous east euro coach, who took aussie road to europe, then tok Thuringer Energie to the top espoir team, perhpas in Europe, where cav was at in 2005 ish, he said cav could race, and had the hunger and determination in his eyes, and new how to find the line.


Cav was with Salzwedel at Team Sparkasse, now Nutrixxion-Sparkasse. They aren't the top espoir team in Europe (in fact they aren't an espoir team at all, and weren't then either, including several youngsters but also being led by a 31-year-old André Schulze and a 34-year-old Lars Teutenberg). Thüringer Energie Team didn't start up until 2006; Cav was a part of the T-Mobile development program that eventually begot TET, though.

I don't dispute the rest of what you say. Just goes to show that putting out the right numbers ≠ being as good as they say. Óscar Freire isn't the quickest sprinter, but he's accumulated a better palmarès than lots of people faster than him.
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06 Mar 2012 20:33

More successful than Brits in the past. Undoubtedly there are more Brit riders winning and placing in higher quality races than at any time in the last 40 years. If drugs are the reason then my 4 options from earlier remain.
Biggut
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06 Mar 2012 20:40

blackcat wrote:actually, Froome had a phenomenal debut at the Tour de France as a 22 or 23 yo on Barlo about 5 years back. And came second in a World B tt, and if he rode the u23 instead of World tt that year, he may have won or very least podiumed in the u23 chrono

still doped, but all the rest are too. Wiggins and Cav are the two guys who have been transformed by the gear. Cav just has a good aero posture. But if he had to climb without the gear, and without hanging on to cars, he would never win one sprint. Guy cant be beaten if he can see the line, and phenomenal for that talent. But we dont let chris hoy ride the last k of the champs elysees by haging on to 3000km do we? Nope. If Cav was like Mcewen, and had to climb and finish a stage thru natural aerobic ability, he would not be sprinting ftw. He would not be a pro cos he could not win!

Saying that, the best ever sprint I saw was the San Remo win. And in his second year as a pro, see him snaking solo in 3 days of De Panne, if anyone has any doubts he needs a train and could not handle himself. He could be as good as Mcewen in terms of navigating solo, and he still would be successful . He does not NEED the train, it just adds about 10 wins to the 30 he gets a year. He still would win. Cav IS phenomenal, no doubt. Best ever sprinter in my reckoning. And the San Remo win, is better than Mcewen's come from behind London win, in terms of best wins coming from nowhere metric.


Froome had a solid if not spectacular debut. I think you may be mixing him up with John-Lee Augustyn who did have a fairly spectacular debut. Same team, similar age and also an African background and straight to Sky afterwards;)
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06 Mar 2012 20:52

Doping isn't going to be factor unless you think Brits are more or less likely to be doping than anyone else. I don't see a compelling reason to lean one way or the other - so you would have to link any increased success (which is still limited) to other factors such as a bigger talent pool, more money, and better co-ordination.
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06 Mar 2012 20:59

Mambo95 wrote:They also use different sized chainrings and sporckets.

A typical 80s bike used 54/44 and 12-21
A typical modern bike has 53/39 and 11-26

44/21 = 2.09
53/26 = 2.03

So a lower ratio is achievable with a modern big ring than an 80s small ring.

If you consider doping the only explanation for anything, you miss so much.


No, it seems the pro peloton considers that the only answer.

They try and blind everyone else with talk of science, technology, diets, ice baths etc etc etc....
"ahaha, ever had the feeling you been cheated?" JL SF Jan'78.
User avatar Benotti69
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06 Mar 2012 21:08

Biggut wrote:More successful than Brits in the past. Undoubtedly there are more Brit riders winning and placing in higher quality races than at any time in the last 40 years. If drugs are the reason then my 4 options from earlier remain.


Ok, I will take your word for it.
Anyway, here is a list of Top 20 all-time greats from cyclingweekly.


1 ROBERT MILLAR 2,900 points
Pro: 1980-95

2 Tom Simpson 2,545 points
Pro: 1958-1967

3 Mark Cavendish 2,435 points
Pro: 2007-present

4 Chris Boardman 1,965 points
Pro: 1993-2000

5 David Millar 1,505 points*
Pro: 1997-present

6 Barry Hoban 1,455 points
Pro: 1962-1981

7 Bradley Wiggins 970 points
Pro: 2002-present

8 Michael Wright 800 points
Pro: 1962-1976

9 Max Sciandri 675 points **
Pro: raced as a British rider 1995-2004

10 Sean Yates 635 points
Pro: 1982-1996

11 Brian Robinson 605 points
Pro: 1952-1963

12 Malcolm Elliott 380 points
Pro: 1984-1997

13= Roger Hammond 235 points
Pro: 1998-present

13= Chris Froome 235 points
Pro: 2007-present

15 Jeremy Hunt 230 points
Pro: 1996-present

16 Vin Denson 155 points
Pro: 1959-1969

17 Alan Ramsbottom 150 points
Pro: 1961-1966

18= Graham Jones 120 points
Pro: 1979-1988

18= Paul Sherwen 120 points
Pro: 1978-1987

http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/latest/345266/cycling-weekly-s-all-time-ranking-of-british-pro-riders.html
User avatar Polish
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06 Mar 2012 21:32

Mambo95 wrote:They also use different sized chainrings and sporckets.

A typical 80s bike used 54/44 and 12-21
A typical modern bike has 53/39 and 11-26

44/21 = 2.09
53/26 = 2.03

So a lower ratio is achievable with a modern big ring than an 80s small ring.

If you consider doping the only explanation for anything, you miss so much.


Ah, but using a 53/26 spells disaster. Andy can tell you a story about that...:D
Fus087
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06 Mar 2012 21:46

Until recently, it was hard for a British rider to get the opportunities to make it as a pro. They had to use every contact just to get a ride on a continental amateur team and rely on charities such as the Braveheart Fund to finance it.

There was no academy, there were no teams riding decent races abroad, there was no progression. Millar made it, but a good rider like Downing didn't.

Now, there's a proper, well financed progression for a young cyclist. Look at Luke Rowe. As a kid he had a local velodrome and joined Maindy Flyers, a youth club which produced Thomas and Cooke, then on to GB youth events, GB youth teams, GB Academy and then Sky. All with top class coaching at every step.

That system has only been there for less than a decade. Even then, only eight GB riders scored WT points last season (Australia had 19). They're not dominating just yet.

As others have noted, GB's rise is mostly meteoric because they started so low. Less than 10 years ago Brits were claiming Backstedt, McEwen and Cioni as their own for someone to cheer at the Tour.
Mambo95
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06 Mar 2012 21:54

[quote="Polish"]Ok, I will take your word for it.
Anyway, here is a list of Top 20 all-time greats from cyclingweekly.


1 ROBERT MILLAR 2,900 points
Pro: 1980-95

2 Tom Simpson 2,545 points
Pro: 1958-1967

3 Mark Cavendish 2,435 points
Pro: 2007-present

4 Chris Boardman 1,965 points
Pro: 1993-2000

5 David Millar 1,505 points*
Pro: 1997-present


Thanks for this. I had completely missed it.

In a bizarre twist of true Brit fairness and all that, I particularly liked:

*David Millar: Points for results that were stripped after admitting he had doped are not included (for example world time trial championship 2003).


And yet we all know that Uncle Tom was cleaner than snow and Robert even tested positive for Testosterone;)
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06 Mar 2012 22:17

Or, why did UK riders find it so hard to find successful previously?

There is now funding, development, and opportunity where previously there was very little.
hatcher
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06 Mar 2012 22:54

Because cycling is cleaner than before :D
Testing the bounds of reality.
User avatar Zam_Olyas
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06 Mar 2012 23:40

hatcher wrote:Or, why did UK riders find it so hard to find successful previously?

There is now funding, development, and opportunity where previously there was very little.


see Cav at Thuringer Energie, and Blythe at Konica plus on to a Belge squad.

They CAN make it and did.

Here is the difference: they reached a critical threshold, bigger pool, larger catchment. Some like Andy Tennant, might not squeeze throuhg like Manning and Tennant and Ed Clancy, to be pros on the road.

NB. Ed Clancy won a field sprint at Thuringen Rundfahrt and was Cav's pilot when they were at Energie. He put out better numbers than Wiggins on the boards. He is perhaps the best ever racer for the omnium. Not sure his numbers compared to G, for the IP, and unlike G, he could not ride at 54kg and climb for classification on the road.

Bascially it comes down to, a whole new bloc of young talented riders, cos the sport now have profile and preeminence in the UK, = more riders > larger catchment, more coming thru to be pros.

Fact is that UK with Germany most economically healthy economy, that there will be potential for a second sponsor, even when Sky jumps ship, to have two pro teams, within the decade. There is certainly enough talent. So have guys like Manning, Hayles, Tennant, Clancy, carving out careers on the road. Or, being supported to do both outside the Olympic period.

Cycling was always a niche sport. Can safely say, now it is not, it has broken thru to msm, and accepted as a pro sport like the continent appreciates it.
You bust your ass on a bike for three whole weeks, and at the end, as a "reward" you are expected to party with LRP? That's just sad. :( - Beech Mtn
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06 Mar 2012 23:45

ferryman wrote:Froome had a solid if not spectacular debut. I think you may be mixing him up with John-Lee Augustyn who did have a fairly spectacular debut. Same team, similar age and also an African background and straight to Sky afterwards;)

no, not confusing them. John Lee did have a record ascent up Mt Fuji in Tour of JApan, I know his results and palmares. I know the colombian and other former grimpeurs who went up Fuji, and a 19 yo Augustyn had his time sorted! A top 10 guy in the Giro, from Kelme. I cannot be bothered check. But I remember those details.

I know JLA career well, who could forget when he was first over the summit of the highest peak in the tour, what was it, 5 years back, and crashed on the descent and went over the mtn. I think I remember George H, being in the break, but JLA jumped on that ascent kms out, and summeted a bit ahead.

JLA was doing quite well and competitive at that stage in KOM points, was top 5(ish) at that stage. Cant be bothered checking, alas, think I have indicated I KNOW
You bust your ass on a bike for three whole weeks, and at the end, as a "reward" you are expected to party with LRP? That's just sad. :( - Beech Mtn
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06 Mar 2012 23:46

richtea wrote:Doping isn't going to be factor unless you think Brits are more or less likely to be doping than anyone else. I don't see a compelling reason to lean one way or the other - so you would have to link any increased success (which is still limited) to other factors such as a bigger talent pool, more money, and better co-ordination.

succinct and perfect synopsis. Ta
You bust your ass on a bike for three whole weeks, and at the end, as a "reward" you are expected to party with LRP? That's just sad. :( - Beech Mtn
User avatar blackcat
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06 Mar 2012 23:48

Polish wrote:Ok, I will take your word for it.
Anyway, here is a list of Top 20 all-time greats from cyclingweekly.


9 Max Sciandri 675 points **
Pro: raced as a British rider 1995-2004

http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/latest/345266/cycling-weekly-s-all-time-ranking-of-british-pro-riders.html

cant think of MAx as a brit. Italian as they come. Also think he is a good preparatore to Cav and he is lined up with the magic potions of doctor Cecchini, or as I like to call him, ceccho.
You bust your ass on a bike for three whole weeks, and at the end, as a "reward" you are expected to party with LRP? That's just sad. :( - Beech Mtn
User avatar blackcat
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06 Mar 2012 23:56

Again, Cavendish and Clancy were on Sparkasse, not Thüringer Energie. Thüringer Energie didn't start up until 2006, the season both moved on, Cavendish to T-Mobile as a stagiare, Clancy to Landbouwkrediet likewise.

As for JLA in the Jausiers stage, he did indeed crash descending the Col de la Bonette, after attacking a group with Hincapie in it as recalled, but unfortunately the team car was way back, and as his bike had fallen down the mountainside poor John-Lee had to stand by the side of the road and watch group after group go past him while he waited for a new bike. He finished about 5 minutes down as a result.
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